On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is a
On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is a
It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and credited with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz"
and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. Perhaps
Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the
early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age
being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger
brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe
she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family
around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur lineage.
Peter Stewart
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is a
It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and credited with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz" and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. Perhaps Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger
brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe
she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family
around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur lineage.
Peter Stewart
You are both obviously more conversant with the sources on these people
than I am, so excuse me if I am blundering in here, but doesnt the St.Truid chronicle
or charter [I'm not sure which] confuse Arnulf and Berta with the counts of Flanders? There do seem to be many counts and nobles with the name Arnulf
in the sources of the late 10th century. Working out which is which is certainly
a minefield.
I read on wiki that Arnulf lost Valenciennes to Baldwin V 1006, perhaps this was only temporary as Tanner in her book on Boulogne dates this to 1013,
and that the Emperor gave Cambresis to the Bishop of Cambrai 1007. Then Arnulf gave Vise to the Bishop to buy his aide to recover his lands, so he seems to have been in a rather weak position when he died. AIUI the marches of valenciennes & Eename were erected as a barrier to the Frankish kings invading Lorraine like Lothar had done. By this time the threat was perhaps over
and they were no longer needed.
Lastly as these threads on Richilde seem to be inclining towards Arnulf of Valenciennes, I saw a line of descent repeated on many websites like geni.com,
which have the following for Arnulf of Valenciennes:
1 Charles the Bald m Ermentrude
2 Judith m Baldwin I of Flanders d879
3 Raoul [Rodulf] Count of Cambrai k 896
4 dau [sometimes called Judith] m Isaac Count of Cambrai 908-46
5 Arnulf I, son of Isaac 941, Count [of Cambrai?] 960 m Berta of Batavie d967
6 Arnulf II the Younger Ct of Cambrai 979 Markgraf & Ct of Valenciennes 983 d 1011or12 m Letgarde of Namur
The only worthwhile reference was ES II,5 which I take to mean the Europaische Studien series.
Mike
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is a
It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and credited with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz" and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. Perhaps Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger
brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe
she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family
around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur lineage.
Peter Stewart
You are both obviously more conversant with the sources on these people
than I am, so excuse me if I am blundering in here, but doesnt the St.Truid chronicle
or charter [I'm not sure which] confuse Arnulf and Berta with the counts of Flanders? There do seem to be many counts and nobles with the name Arnulf
in the sources of the late 10th century. Working out which is which is certainly
a minefield.
I read on wiki that Arnulf lost Valenciennes to Baldwin V 1006, perhaps this was only temporary as Tanner in her book on Boulogne dates this to 1013,
and that the Emperor gave Cambresis to the Bishop of Cambrai 1007. Then Arnulf gave Vise to the Bishop to buy his aide to recover his lands, so he seems to have been in a rather weak position when he died. AIUI the marches of valenciennes & Eename were erected as a barrier to the Frankish kings invading Lorraine like Lothar had done. By this time the threat was perhaps over
and they were no longer needed.
Lastly as these threads on Richilde seem to be inclining towards Arnulf of Valenciennes, I saw a line of descent repeated on many websites like geni.com,
which have the following for Arnulf of Valenciennes:
1 Charles the Bald m Ermentrude
2 Judith m Baldwin I of Flanders d879
3 Raoul [Rodulf] Count of Cambrai k 896
4 dau [sometimes called Judith] m Isaac Count of Cambrai 908-46
5 Arnulf I, son of Isaac 941, Count [of Cambrai?] 960 m Berta of Batavie d967
6 Arnulf II the Younger Ct of Cambrai 979 Markgraf & Ct of Valenciennes 983 d 1011or12 m Letgarde of Namur
The only worthwhile reference was ES II,5 which I take to mean the Europaische Studien series.
Mike
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:33:50 PM UTC+1, mike davis wrote:mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is a
Truiden. I live a short drive away. The local dutch dialect has been immortalized in the Oscar-winning film "Rundskop" (Bullhead).It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and credited with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz" and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. Perhaps Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur lineage.
Peter Stewart
You are both obviously more conversant with the sources on these people than I am, so excuse me if I am blundering in here, but doesnt the St.Truid chronicle
or charter [I'm not sure which] confuse Arnulf and Berta with the counts of
Flanders? There do seem to be many counts and nobles with the name Arnulf in the sources of the late 10th century. Working out which is which is certainly
a minefield.
I read on wiki that Arnulf lost Valenciennes to Baldwin V 1006, perhaps this
was only temporary as Tanner in her book on Boulogne dates this to 1013, and that the Emperor gave Cambresis to the Bishop of Cambrai 1007. Then Arnulf gave Vise to the Bishop to buy his aide to recover his lands, so he seems to have been in a rather weak position when he died. AIUI the marches
of valenciennes & Eename were erected as a barrier to the Frankish kings invading Lorraine like Lothar had done. By this time the threat was perhaps over
and they were no longer needed.
Lastly as these threads on Richilde seem to be inclining towards Arnulf of Valenciennes, I saw a line of descent repeated on many websites like geni.com,
which have the following for Arnulf of Valenciennes:
1 Charles the Bald m Ermentrude
2 Judith m Baldwin I of Flanders d879
3 Raoul [Rodulf] Count of Cambrai k 896
4 dau [sometimes called Judith] m Isaac Count of Cambrai 908-46
5 Arnulf I, son of Isaac 941, Count [of Cambrai?] 960 m Berta of Batavie d967
6 Arnulf II the Younger Ct of Cambrai 979 Markgraf & Ct of Valenciennes 983 d 1011or12 m Letgarde of Namur
The only worthwhile reference was ES II,5 which I take to mean the Europaische Studien series.
MikeHi Mike
No problem!
Quick notes:
1. Just as an FYI, I think a good English version might for the saint and founder might be St. Trudo. Concerning European placenames I follow the 21st habit of using local spellings, mostly, but not always. In Dutch the town where the abbey was is Sint-
2. You are correct to observe that there is a concern about whether the chronicle of the abbey there was making a typical type of genealogists mistake by calling Bertha and Arnulf "Flemish". Peter is arguing that to a certain point, but in reality weare not far apart (I think). Certainly the chronicle was wrong if it thought Arnulf was "the" count of Flanders. But he clearly was "a" count of Flanders, at least using the term in the way it was used at that time. You make me think of an interesting
3. Whether we can equate Arnulf of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes is not perfectly clear. It is a perfectly reasonable proposal. It is commonly treated as if certain. Peter prefers not to do so, and that is perfectly correct.
4. Unfortunately I don't think Peter or I are very confident about Richilde being a relative of Arnulf and Bertha. We don't seem to have found a strong reason to prefer that option. There are too many options.
5. Concerning the genealogy you mention this is indeed a gorilla in the room for Peter and myself. I think both of us are saying that this typical proposal is very speculative at almost every step. We do not know who Bertha was married to. I think wecan simply reject the idea that she was "de Batavie" (the Vanderkindere proposal). Who knows. Maybe she was a daughter of Isaac.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:56:26 PM UTC, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:a mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:33:50 PM UTC+1, mike davis wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is
Sint-Truiden. I live a short drive away. The local dutch dialect has been immortalized in the Oscar-winning film "Rundskop" (Bullhead).It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and credited
with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz"
and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. Perhaps Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as
evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur
lineage.
Peter Stewart
You are both obviously more conversant with the sources on these people than I am, so excuse me if I am blundering in here, but doesnt the St.Truid chronicle
or charter [I'm not sure which] confuse Arnulf and Berta with the counts of
Flanders? There do seem to be many counts and nobles with the name Arnulf
in the sources of the late 10th century. Working out which is which is certainly
a minefield.
I read on wiki that Arnulf lost Valenciennes to Baldwin V 1006, perhaps this
was only temporary as Tanner in her book on Boulogne dates this to 1013, and that the Emperor gave Cambresis to the Bishop of Cambrai 1007. Then Arnulf gave Vise to the Bishop to buy his aide to recover his lands, so he
seems to have been in a rather weak position when he died. AIUI the marches
of valenciennes & Eename were erected as a barrier to the Frankish kings invading Lorraine like Lothar had done. By this time the threat was perhaps over
and they were no longer needed.
Lastly as these threads on Richilde seem to be inclining towards Arnulf of
Valenciennes, I saw a line of descent repeated on many websites like geni.com,
which have the following for Arnulf of Valenciennes:
1 Charles the Bald m Ermentrude
2 Judith m Baldwin I of Flanders d879
3 Raoul [Rodulf] Count of Cambrai k 896
4 dau [sometimes called Judith] m Isaac Count of Cambrai 908-46
5 Arnulf I, son of Isaac 941, Count [of Cambrai?] 960 m Berta of Batavie d967
6 Arnulf II the Younger Ct of Cambrai 979 Markgraf & Ct of Valenciennes 983 d 1011or12 m Letgarde of Namur
The only worthwhile reference was ES II,5 which I take to mean the Europaische Studien series.
MikeHi Mike
No problem!
Quick notes:
1. Just as an FYI, I think a good English version might for the saint and founder might be St. Trudo. Concerning European placenames I follow the 21st habit of using local spellings, mostly, but not always. In Dutch the town where the abbey was is
Sorry, yes i seem to have combined english and dutch and got it both wrong.are not far apart (I think). Certainly the chronicle was wrong if it thought Arnulf was "the" count of Flanders. But he clearly was "a" count of Flanders, at least using the term in the way it was used at that time. You make me think of an interesting
2. You are correct to observe that there is a concern about whether the chronicle of the abbey there was making a typical type of genealogists mistake by calling Bertha and Arnulf "Flemish". Peter is arguing that to a certain point, but in reality we
So calling them count or countess of Flanders is not a title but a more general geographic term? I cancan simply reject the idea that she was "de Batavie" (the Vanderkindere proposal). Who knows. Maybe she was a daughter of Isaac.
see that could be the case, but my initial feeling was that the writer thought he was Arnulf the Old.
But I havnt read the rest of the chronicle to see if they are treated as separate persons.
3. Whether we can equate Arnulf of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes is not perfectly clear. It is a perfectly reasonable proposal. It is commonly treated as if certain. Peter prefers not to do so, and that is perfectly correct.
Most historians seem to have combined the two, and I also tend to follow that view, but there are plenty of
Arnulfs to choose from at that time so the defender of Cambrai in 979 could be different from the
markgrave of the 983, if those dates are correct.
4. Unfortunately I don't think Peter or I are very confident about Richilde being a relative of Arnulf and Bertha. We don't seem to have found a strong reason to prefer that option. There are too many options.
Yes I think you are right. There doesnt seem as yet any hard evidence.
5. Concerning the genealogy you mention this is indeed a gorilla in the room for Peter and myself. I think both of us are saying that this typical proposal is very speculative at almost every step. We do not know who Bertha was married to. I think we
I agree. My purpose in posting this was in case people saw these threads and thought they knew
the answers from these descents that are freely available to anyone with a net connection.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:33:50 PM UTC+1, mike davis wrote:mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is a
Truiden. I live a short drive away. The local dutch dialect has been immortalized in the Oscar-winning film "Rundskop" (Bullhead).It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and credited >>> with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz" >>> and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. PerhapsYou are both obviously more conversant with the sources on these people
Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his
father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the
early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age
being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger
brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as
evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a
daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe
she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family
around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur >>> lineage.
Peter Stewart
than I am, so excuse me if I am blundering in here, but doesnt the St.Truid chronicle
or charter [I'm not sure which] confuse Arnulf and Berta with the counts of >> Flanders? There do seem to be many counts and nobles with the name Arnulf
in the sources of the late 10th century. Working out which is which is certainly
a minefield.
I read on wiki that Arnulf lost Valenciennes to Baldwin V 1006, perhaps this >> was only temporary as Tanner in her book on Boulogne dates this to 1013,
and that the Emperor gave Cambresis to the Bishop of Cambrai 1007. Then
Arnulf gave Vise to the Bishop to buy his aide to recover his lands, so he >> seems to have been in a rather weak position when he died. AIUI the marches >> of valenciennes & Eename were erected as a barrier to the Frankish kings
invading Lorraine like Lothar had done. By this time the threat was perhaps over
and they were no longer needed.
Lastly as these threads on Richilde seem to be inclining towards Arnulf of >> Valenciennes, I saw a line of descent repeated on many websites like geni.com,
which have the following for Arnulf of Valenciennes:
1 Charles the Bald m Ermentrude
2 Judith m Baldwin I of Flanders d879
3 Raoul [Rodulf] Count of Cambrai k 896
4 dau [sometimes called Judith] m Isaac Count of Cambrai 908-46
5 Arnulf I, son of Isaac 941, Count [of Cambrai?] 960 m Berta of Batavie d967
6 Arnulf II the Younger Ct of Cambrai 979 Markgraf & Ct of Valenciennes 983 d 1011or12 m Letgarde of Namur
The only worthwhile reference was ES II,5 which I take to mean the Europaische Studien series.
Mike
Hi Mike
No problem!
Quick notes:
1. Just as an FYI, I think a good English version might for the saint and founder might be St. Trudo. Concerning European placenames I follow the 21st habit of using local spellings, mostly, but not always. In Dutch the town where the abbey was is Sint-
2. You are correct to observe that there is a concern about whether the chronicle of the abbey there was making a typical type of genealogists mistake by calling Bertha and Arnulf "Flemish". Peter is arguing that to a certain point, but in reality weare not far apart (I think). Certainly the chronicle was wrong if it thought Arnulf was "the" count of Flanders. But he clearly was "a" count of Flanders, at least using the term in the way it was used at that time. You make me think of an interesting
3. Whether we can equate Arnulf of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes is not perfectly clear. It is a perfectly reasonable proposal. It is commonly treated as if certain. Peter prefers not to do so, and that is perfectly correct.
4. Unfortunately I don't think Peter or I are very confident about Richilde being a relative of Arnulf and Bertha. We don't seem to have found a strong reason to prefer that option. There are too many options.
5. Concerning the genealogy you mention this is indeed a gorilla in the room for Peter and myself. I think both of us are saying that this typical proposal is very speculative at almost every step. We do not know who Bertha was married to. I think wecan simply reject the idea that she was "de Batavie" (the Vanderkindere proposal). Who knows. Maybe she was a daughter of Isaac.
On 21-Mar-23 5:56 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:33:50 PM UTC+1, mike davis wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: >>>>
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is a
Sint-Truiden. I live a short drive away. The local dutch dialect has been immortalized in the Oscar-winning film "Rundskop" (Bullhead).It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and credited >>> with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz" >>> and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. PerhapsYou are both obviously more conversant with the sources on these people >> than I am, so excuse me if I am blundering in here, but doesnt the St.Truid chronicle
Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his >>> father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the >>> early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age >>> being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger
brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as >>> evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a
daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe >>> she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family
around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur >>> lineage.
Peter Stewart
or charter [I'm not sure which] confuse Arnulf and Berta with the counts of
Flanders? There do seem to be many counts and nobles with the name Arnulf >> in the sources of the late 10th century. Working out which is which is certainly
a minefield.
I read on wiki that Arnulf lost Valenciennes to Baldwin V 1006, perhaps this
was only temporary as Tanner in her book on Boulogne dates this to 1013, >> and that the Emperor gave Cambresis to the Bishop of Cambrai 1007. Then >> Arnulf gave Vise to the Bishop to buy his aide to recover his lands, so he
seems to have been in a rather weak position when he died. AIUI the marches
of valenciennes & Eename were erected as a barrier to the Frankish kings >> invading Lorraine like Lothar had done. By this time the threat was perhaps over
and they were no longer needed.
Lastly as these threads on Richilde seem to be inclining towards Arnulf of
Valenciennes, I saw a line of descent repeated on many websites like geni.com,
which have the following for Arnulf of Valenciennes:
1 Charles the Bald m Ermentrude
2 Judith m Baldwin I of Flanders d879
3 Raoul [Rodulf] Count of Cambrai k 896
4 dau [sometimes called Judith] m Isaac Count of Cambrai 908-46
5 Arnulf I, son of Isaac 941, Count [of Cambrai?] 960 m Berta of Batavie d967
6 Arnulf II the Younger Ct of Cambrai 979 Markgraf & Ct of Valenciennes 983 d 1011or12 m Letgarde of Namur
The only worthwhile reference was ES II,5 which I take to mean the Europaische Studien series.
Mike
Hi Mike
No problem!
Quick notes:
1. Just as an FYI, I think a good English version might for the saint and founder might be St. Trudo. Concerning European placenames I follow the 21st habit of using local spellings, mostly, but not always. In Dutch the town where the abbey was is
are not far apart (I think). Certainly the chronicle was wrong if it thought Arnulf was "the" count of Flanders. But he clearly was "a" count of Flanders, at least using the term in the way it was used at that time. You make me think of an interesting2. You are correct to observe that there is a concern about whether the chronicle of the abbey there was making a typical type of genealogists mistake by calling Bertha and Arnulf "Flemish". Peter is arguing that to a certain point, but in reality we
I don't follow your reasoning for 'he clearly was "a" count of Flanders,can simply reject the idea that she was "de Batavie" (the Vanderkindere proposal). Who knows. Maybe she was a daughter of Isaac.
at least using the term in the way it was used at that time' - the time
in question was the late-14th century, as we have no evidence that the
terms used then were taken verbatim from any earlier source. Where do
you find late-14th century references to "comes Flandrensis" or variants
of this meaning "a" count in the region of Flanders rather than "the"
count of Flanders? My opinion is that the Sint-Triuden writer wrongly identified Bertha as a widowed countess of Flanders and her son Arnulf
as the successor of her deceased husband - but this hardly matters
anyway since it does not negate the historicity of Bertha's visit to Sint-Truiden on her way home from Aachen, or her illness and death on
the journey, or Arnulf's donation according to her dying wishes.
3. Whether we can equate Arnulf of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes is not perfectly clear. It is a perfectly reasonable proposal. It is commonly treated as if certain. Peter prefers not to do so, and that is perfectly correct.I don't recall making a comment on this but maybe I've forgotten
something - I thought I had said (or should have done) that there is a
limit to how many contemporaneous counts named Arnulf can be reasonably postulated, and that identifying the count of Cambrai with the count of Valenciennes seems sensible enough to me.
4. Unfortunately I don't think Peter or I are very confident about Richilde being a relative of Arnulf and Bertha. We don't seem to have found a strong reason to prefer that option. There are too many options.There are several alternatives for Richilde and Herman between them -
one or other, or perhaps both - having some hereditary claim to Valenciennes. However, a castellan whose successor was named Isaac had possession of Valenciennes evidently before (or if not very soon after)
the countship/margraviate was taken up by the Hainaut couple. It is not unlikely than this man, Hugo, represented the kindred paid off in order
for the fuzzy inheritance to pass into her (or her husband's) hands. I
will get round to this later, as energy allows.
5. Concerning the genealogy you mention this is indeed a gorilla in the room for Peter and myself. I think both of us are saying that this typical proposal is very speculative at almost every step. We do not know who Bertha was married to. I think we
That is a plausible suggestion - if Isaac was succeeded by his
son-in-law Amulric, as some historians suppose, and Amulric was
subsequently divorced from Isaac's daughter for consanguinity, then Valenciennes may have gone after him to Bertha's husband as another son-in-law of Isaac. But this is open to other equally plausible
alternative scenarios.
Peter Stewart
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On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 1:13:57 AM UTC+2, Peter Stewart wrote:mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On 21-Mar-23 5:56 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:33:50 PM UTC+1, mike davis wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: >>>>>>
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is a
Sint-Truiden. I live a short drive away. The local dutch dialect has been immortalized in the Oscar-winning film "Rundskop" (Bullhead).It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and credited >>>>> with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz" >>>>> and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. PerhapsYou are both obviously more conversant with the sources on these people >>>> than I am, so excuse me if I am blundering in here, but doesnt the St.Truid chronicle
Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his >>>>> father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the >>>>> early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age >>>>> being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger
brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as >>>>> evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a >>>>> daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe >>>>> she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family
around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur >>>>> lineage.
Peter Stewart
or charter [I'm not sure which] confuse Arnulf and Berta with the counts of
Flanders? There do seem to be many counts and nobles with the name Arnulf >>>> in the sources of the late 10th century. Working out which is which is certainly
a minefield.
I read on wiki that Arnulf lost Valenciennes to Baldwin V 1006, perhaps this
was only temporary as Tanner in her book on Boulogne dates this to 1013, >>>> and that the Emperor gave Cambresis to the Bishop of Cambrai 1007. Then >>>> Arnulf gave Vise to the Bishop to buy his aide to recover his lands, so he >>>> seems to have been in a rather weak position when he died. AIUI the marches
of valenciennes & Eename were erected as a barrier to the Frankish kings >>>> invading Lorraine like Lothar had done. By this time the threat was perhaps over
and they were no longer needed.
Lastly as these threads on Richilde seem to be inclining towards Arnulf of >>>> Valenciennes, I saw a line of descent repeated on many websites like geni.com,
which have the following for Arnulf of Valenciennes:
1 Charles the Bald m Ermentrude
2 Judith m Baldwin I of Flanders d879
3 Raoul [Rodulf] Count of Cambrai k 896
4 dau [sometimes called Judith] m Isaac Count of Cambrai 908-46
5 Arnulf I, son of Isaac 941, Count [of Cambrai?] 960 m Berta of Batavie d967
6 Arnulf II the Younger Ct of Cambrai 979 Markgraf & Ct of Valenciennes 983 d 1011or12 m Letgarde of Namur
The only worthwhile reference was ES II,5 which I take to mean the Europaische Studien series.
Mike
Hi Mike
No problem!
Quick notes:
1. Just as an FYI, I think a good English version might for the saint and founder might be St. Trudo. Concerning European placenames I follow the 21st habit of using local spellings, mostly, but not always. In Dutch the town where the abbey was is
are not far apart (I think). Certainly the chronicle was wrong if it thought Arnulf was "the" count of Flanders. But he clearly was "a" count of Flanders, at least using the term in the way it was used at that time. You make me think of an interesting
2. You are correct to observe that there is a concern about whether the chronicle of the abbey there was making a typical type of genealogists mistake by calling Bertha and Arnulf "Flemish". Peter is arguing that to a certain point, but in reality we
can simply reject the idea that she was "de Batavie" (the Vanderkindere proposal). Who knows. Maybe she was a daughter of Isaac.I don't follow your reasoning for 'he clearly was "a" count of Flanders,
at least using the term in the way it was used at that time' - the time
in question was the late-14th century, as we have no evidence that the
terms used then were taken verbatim from any earlier source. Where do
you find late-14th century references to "comes Flandrensis" or variants
of this meaning "a" count in the region of Flanders rather than "the"
count of Flanders? My opinion is that the Sint-Triuden writer wrongly
identified Bertha as a widowed countess of Flanders and her son Arnulf
as the successor of her deceased husband - but this hardly matters
anyway since it does not negate the historicity of Bertha's visit to
Sint-Truiden on her way home from Aachen, or her illness and death on
the journey, or Arnulf's donation according to her dying wishes.
3. Whether we can equate Arnulf of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes is not perfectly clear. It is a perfectly reasonable proposal. It is commonly treated as if certain. Peter prefers not to do so, and that is perfectly correct.I don't recall making a comment on this but maybe I've forgotten
something - I thought I had said (or should have done) that there is a
limit to how many contemporaneous counts named Arnulf can be reasonably
postulated, and that identifying the count of Cambrai with the count of
Valenciennes seems sensible enough to me.
4. Unfortunately I don't think Peter or I are very confident about Richilde being a relative of Arnulf and Bertha. We don't seem to have found a strong reason to prefer that option. There are too many options.There are several alternatives for Richilde and Herman between them -
one or other, or perhaps both - having some hereditary claim to
Valenciennes. However, a castellan whose successor was named Isaac had
possession of Valenciennes evidently before (or if not very soon after)
the countship/margraviate was taken up by the Hainaut couple. It is not
unlikely than this man, Hugo, represented the kindred paid off in order
for the fuzzy inheritance to pass into her (or her husband's) hands. I
will get round to this later, as energy allows.
5. Concerning the genealogy you mention this is indeed a gorilla in the room for Peter and myself. I think both of us are saying that this typical proposal is very speculative at almost every step. We do not know who Bertha was married to. I think we
difficult conclusion to avoid. So it was therefore possible that it was his source who called Bertha a Flemish countess.That is a plausible suggestion - if Isaac was succeeded by his
son-in-law Amulric, as some historians suppose, and Amulric was
subsequently divorced from Isaac's daughter for consanguinity, then
Valenciennes may have gone after him to Bertha's husband as another
son-in-law of Isaac. But this is open to other equally plausible
alternative scenarios.
Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Thanks for those clarifications Peter. Just in answer to your first remark. I assume that the 14th century writer was basing himself upon sources we no longer have. As he is the only source we have for some events centuries early, this seems to be a
As I think I mentioned somewhere, it might also be relevant to consider that during the period we are talking about the Karlings were imposing themselves upon the southern part of "Flanders" near Lens where Bertha and her son apparently had some sortof foothold. So it was probably not under "the" counts of Flanders.
Whether our 14th century reporter understood all this is another matter. (Although I don't want to disparage them. They seem to have been quite the antiquarian, with an interest in trying to connect the dots in times long past.)
On 06-Apr-23 7:08 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:a mystery, but quite a common thing in medieval necrologies. Arnulf's son is also mentioned in that necrology by the way.
On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 1:13:57 AM UTC+2, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 21-Mar-23 5:56 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:33:50 PM UTC+1, mike davis wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote: >>>>> On 20-Mar-23 4:48 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 2:45:31 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: >>>>>>
Thanks Peter. I see that I scanned that page from Parisse's edition of the necrology but perhaps apparently never really processed it. Crehen is certainly in the right area, and as you note this is definitely a countess. Why the dates differ is
Sint-Truiden. I live a short drive away. The local dutch dialect has been immortalized in the Oscar-winning film "Rundskop" (Bullhead).It's interesting that the son Adalbert is also titled count and creditedYou are both obviously more conversant with the sources on these people >>>> than I am, so excuse me if I am blundering in here, but doesnt the St.Truid chronicle
with the same donation as Arnulf - in the father's case spelled "Viusaz"
and in the son's "Viozaz", that I assume both meant Visé. Perhaps >>>>> Adalbert was count of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes, or just his >>>>> father's associate count when Arnulf must have been an old man by the >>>>> early 11th century (this had happened before in the region without age >>>>> being the cause, for example in Flanders with Adalulf the younger >>>>> brother of Arnulf I).
Thierry Stasser followed Vanderkindere in adducing the name Adalbert as
evidence that Arnulf's wife who donated property in the Darnau was a >>>>> daughter of the count there and a sister of Adalbert I of Namur. Maybe >>>>> she was, but the name Adalbert also occurs in the Vermandois family >>>>> around this time who had a different Carolingian ancestry from the Namur
lineage.
Peter Stewart
or charter [I'm not sure which] confuse Arnulf and Berta with the counts of
Flanders? There do seem to be many counts and nobles with the name Arnulf
in the sources of the late 10th century. Working out which is which is certainly
a minefield.
I read on wiki that Arnulf lost Valenciennes to Baldwin V 1006, perhaps this
was only temporary as Tanner in her book on Boulogne dates this to 1013,
and that the Emperor gave Cambresis to the Bishop of Cambrai 1007. Then >>>> Arnulf gave Vise to the Bishop to buy his aide to recover his lands, so he
seems to have been in a rather weak position when he died. AIUI the marches
of valenciennes & Eename were erected as a barrier to the Frankish kings
invading Lorraine like Lothar had done. By this time the threat was perhaps over
and they were no longer needed.
Lastly as these threads on Richilde seem to be inclining towards Arnulf of
Valenciennes, I saw a line of descent repeated on many websites like geni.com,
which have the following for Arnulf of Valenciennes:
1 Charles the Bald m Ermentrude
2 Judith m Baldwin I of Flanders d879
3 Raoul [Rodulf] Count of Cambrai k 896
4 dau [sometimes called Judith] m Isaac Count of Cambrai 908-46
5 Arnulf I, son of Isaac 941, Count [of Cambrai?] 960 m Berta of Batavie d967
6 Arnulf II the Younger Ct of Cambrai 979 Markgraf & Ct of Valenciennes 983 d 1011or12 m Letgarde of Namur
The only worthwhile reference was ES II,5 which I take to mean the Europaische Studien series.
Mike
Hi Mike
No problem!
Quick notes:
1. Just as an FYI, I think a good English version might for the saint and founder might be St. Trudo. Concerning European placenames I follow the 21st habit of using local spellings, mostly, but not always. In Dutch the town where the abbey was is
we are not far apart (I think). Certainly the chronicle was wrong if it thought Arnulf was "the" count of Flanders. But he clearly was "a" count of Flanders, at least using the term in the way it was used at that time. You make me think of an interesting
2. You are correct to observe that there is a concern about whether the chronicle of the abbey there was making a typical type of genealogists mistake by calling Bertha and Arnulf "Flemish". Peter is arguing that to a certain point, but in reality
we can simply reject the idea that she was "de Batavie" (the Vanderkindere proposal). Who knows. Maybe she was a daughter of Isaac.I don't follow your reasoning for 'he clearly was "a" count of Flanders, >> at least using the term in the way it was used at that time' - the time >> in question was the late-14th century, as we have no evidence that the
terms used then were taken verbatim from any earlier source. Where do
you find late-14th century references to "comes Flandrensis" or variants >> of this meaning "a" count in the region of Flanders rather than "the"
count of Flanders? My opinion is that the Sint-Triuden writer wrongly
identified Bertha as a widowed countess of Flanders and her son Arnulf
as the successor of her deceased husband - but this hardly matters
anyway since it does not negate the historicity of Bertha's visit to
Sint-Truiden on her way home from Aachen, or her illness and death on
the journey, or Arnulf's donation according to her dying wishes.
3. Whether we can equate Arnulf of Cambrai and Arnulf of Valenciennes is not perfectly clear. It is a perfectly reasonable proposal. It is commonly treated as if certain. Peter prefers not to do so, and that is perfectly correct.I don't recall making a comment on this but maybe I've forgotten
something - I thought I had said (or should have done) that there is a
limit to how many contemporaneous counts named Arnulf can be reasonably >> postulated, and that identifying the count of Cambrai with the count of >> Valenciennes seems sensible enough to me.
4. Unfortunately I don't think Peter or I are very confident about Richilde being a relative of Arnulf and Bertha. We don't seem to have found a strong reason to prefer that option. There are too many options.There are several alternatives for Richilde and Herman between them -
one or other, or perhaps both - having some hereditary claim to
Valenciennes. However, a castellan whose successor was named Isaac had
possession of Valenciennes evidently before (or if not very soon after) >> the countship/margraviate was taken up by the Hainaut couple. It is not >> unlikely than this man, Hugo, represented the kindred paid off in order >> for the fuzzy inheritance to pass into her (or her husband's) hands. I
will get round to this later, as energy allows.
5. Concerning the genealogy you mention this is indeed a gorilla in the room for Peter and myself. I think both of us are saying that this typical proposal is very speculative at almost every step. We do not know who Bertha was married to. I think
difficult conclusion to avoid. So it was therefore possible that it was his source who called Bertha a Flemish countess.That is a plausible suggestion - if Isaac was succeeded by his
son-in-law Amulric, as some historians suppose, and Amulric was
subsequently divorced from Isaac's daughter for consanguinity, then
Valenciennes may have gone after him to Bertha's husband as another
son-in-law of Isaac. But this is open to other equally plausible
alternative scenarios.
Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Thanks for those clarifications Peter. Just in answer to your first remark. I assume that the 14th century writer was basing himself upon sources we no longer have. As he is the only source we have for some events centuries early, this seems to be a
of foothold. So it was probably not under "the" counts of Flanders.As I think I mentioned somewhere, it might also be relevant to consider that during the period we are talking about the Karlings were imposing themselves upon the southern part of "Flanders" near Lens where Bertha and her son apparently had some sort
Whether our 14th century reporter understood all this is another matter. (Although I don't want to disparage them. They seem to have been quite the antiquarian, with an interest in trying to connect the dots in times long past.)The trouble with assuming an earlier source for the territorial
designation is that whenever this was added to the titles countess and
count it was inaccurate and almost certainly not in the original 10th-century charter (where such an identifying qualification to a
comital title would have been very rare in the text and unusual even in
a list of subscriptions).
Also, any contemporary of Bertha and Arnulf would not have identified a countess and count of Valenciennes as belonging to the region of
Flanders - in their time these were understood as two distinct
margraviates in different kingdoms. It would be somewhat like calling a
US senator from Vermont a senator from the Quebec region.
Peter Stewart
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