On Saturday, July 13, 2002 at 9:48:43 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
CP gives the parents of John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford, as "s. and
h. of John de Vere, by Alice, da. and coh. of Walter Kilrington,
otherwise Colbroke."
BURKE'S PEERAGE 106th Edition(1999) says John de Vere's wife was
"Alice, widow of Sir Walter Courtenay and daughter of Sir Walter
Colbroke or Kilrington."
This is incorrect - the husbands are switched. Alice's first husband
was John de Vere, by whom she was mother of the 15th Earl of Oxford.
Her second husband was Sir Walter Courtenay, the fifth son of Sir
Philip Courtenay of Powderham and his wife Elizabeth Hungerford. The
order of Alice's marriages is proved by the PRO document:
C 1/127/29 Walter Courteney, knight, and Alice, his wife, executrix
of John Vere. v. Hugh Lynke and Robert Knavysborowe, executors of
Nicholas Gosse, feoffee to uses.: The manors of Redwarry and Bodven,
and messuages and land in Tregennowe (Cornwall), and in Exeter.
Sir Walter Courtenay is said to have died on 7 Nov. 1505/6, and to
have had two sons (William and Walter) and a daughter (Katherine) by
his wife Alice. Which would give the 15th Earl of Oxford three
Courtenay half-siblings.
The background of Alice "Kilrington" remains obscure. Her father was
known by the surname of Colbroke, and seems to have been a Devonshire gentleman, as the following PRO documents attest:
C 1/26/352 Thomas, son of Nicholas Colbroke. v. Walter Colbroke:
Lands called Colbroke and Dorwyke.
C 1/129/41 Walter Courteney, knight. v. John, lord Dynham, feoffee to uses.: Refusal to complete a sale of messuages and land in Broad Clist
and Silverton made by Walter Colbroke and Thomas Raynold.: Devon.
I could find nothing to confirm BURKE'S PEERAGE statement that Walter Colbroke was a knight. It's probable Walter married a Kilrington
heiress, as there's a final PRO document:
C 1/107/26 Thomas Raynold v. Walter Quortney, knight, feoffee to
uses.: Messuages and land in Kylryngton, Monkeculme, Beare, and
Atford, late of Richard Kylryngton.: Devon.
Whether Richard Kylryngton above was Alice's brother, uncle, or other kinsman remains unknown.
Yet Alice's two marriages are linked. The mother of her first husband
John de Vere was Joan Courtenay, widow of Sir Nicholas Carew, and
daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Hacombe. So John de Vere was
kinsman to the Courtenay family of Powderham, of which her second
husband Sir Walter Courtenay was a member.
If anyone has any further info on Alice or her father, I'd appreciate
it.
Best regards, -------Brad VerityI would also appreciate information on Alice Kilrington and her parents. Lind Zabielski
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:37:03 AM UTC-8, Erwin Gomis wrote:
Op dinsdag 30 januari 2018 om 02:24:41 UTC+1 schreef lindaza...@gmail.com:
On Saturday, July 13, 2002 at 9:48:43 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
CP gives the parents of John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford, as "s. and h. of John de Vere, by Alice, da. and coh. of Walter Kilrington, otherwise Colbroke."
BURKE'S PEERAGE 106th Edition(1999) says John de Vere's wife was "Alice, widow of Sir Walter Courtenay and daughter of Sir Walter Colbroke or Kilrington."
This is incorrect - the husbands are switched. Alice's first husband was John de Vere, by whom she was mother of the 15th Earl of Oxford. Her second husband was Sir Walter Courtenay, the fifth son of Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham and his wife Elizabeth Hungerford. The order of Alice's marriages is proved by the PRO document:
C 1/127/29 Walter Courteney, knight, and Alice, his wife, executrix
of John Vere. v. Hugh Lynke and Robert Knavysborowe, executors of Nicholas Gosse, feoffee to uses.: The manors of Redwarry and Bodven, and messuages and land in Tregennowe (Cornwall), and in Exeter.
Sir Walter Courtenay is said to have died on 7 Nov. 1505/6, and to have had two sons (William and Walter) and a daughter (Katherine) by his wife Alice. Which would give the 15th Earl of Oxford three Courtenay half-siblings.
The background of Alice "Kilrington" remains obscure. Her father was known by the surname of Colbroke, and seems to have been a Devonshire gentleman, as the following PRO documents attest:
C 1/26/352 Thomas, son of Nicholas Colbroke. v. Walter Colbroke:
Lands called Colbroke and Dorwyke.
C 1/129/41 Walter Courteney, knight. v. John, lord Dynham, feoffee to uses.: Refusal to complete a sale of messuages and land in Broad Clist and Silverton made by Walter Colbroke and Thomas Raynold.: Devon.
I could find nothing to confirm BURKE'S PEERAGE statement that Walter Colbroke was a knight. It's probable Walter married a Kilrington heiress, as there's a final PRO document:
C 1/107/26 Thomas Raynold v. Walter Quortney, knight, feoffee to uses.: Messuages and land in Kylryngton, Monkeculme, Beare, and Atford, late of Richard Kylryngton.: Devon.
Whether Richard Kylryngton above was Alice's brother, uncle, or other kinsman remains unknown.
Yet Alice's two marriages are linked. The mother of her first husband John de Vere was Joan Courtenay, widow of Sir Nicholas Carew, and daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Hacombe. So John de Vere was
kinsman to the Courtenay family of Powderham, of which her second husband Sir Walter Courtenay was a member.
If anyone has any further info on Alice or her father, I'd appreciate it.
Good find Brad.Best regards, -------Brad Verity
Sir Walter evidently had an IPM
Can that be found so the age of his heir an be determined?
That might allow us to deteremin when they could have married
Op dinsdag 30 januari 2018 om 02:24:41 UTC+1 schreef lindaza...@gmail.com:
On Saturday, July 13, 2002 at 9:48:43 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
CP gives the parents of John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford, as "s. and
h. of John de Vere, by Alice, da. and coh. of Walter Kilrington, otherwise Colbroke."
BURKE'S PEERAGE 106th Edition(1999) says John de Vere's wife was
"Alice, widow of Sir Walter Courtenay and daughter of Sir Walter Colbroke or Kilrington."
This is incorrect - the husbands are switched. Alice's first husband
was John de Vere, by whom she was mother of the 15th Earl of Oxford.
Her second husband was Sir Walter Courtenay, the fifth son of Sir
Philip Courtenay of Powderham and his wife Elizabeth Hungerford. The order of Alice's marriages is proved by the PRO document:
C 1/127/29 Walter Courteney, knight, and Alice, his wife, executrix
of John Vere. v. Hugh Lynke and Robert Knavysborowe, executors of Nicholas Gosse, feoffee to uses.: The manors of Redwarry and Bodven,
and messuages and land in Tregennowe (Cornwall), and in Exeter.
Sir Walter Courtenay is said to have died on 7 Nov. 1505/6, and to
have had two sons (William and Walter) and a daughter (Katherine) by
his wife Alice. Which would give the 15th Earl of Oxford three
Courtenay half-siblings.
The background of Alice "Kilrington" remains obscure. Her father was known by the surname of Colbroke, and seems to have been a Devonshire gentleman, as the following PRO documents attest:
C 1/26/352 Thomas, son of Nicholas Colbroke. v. Walter Colbroke:
Lands called Colbroke and Dorwyke.
C 1/129/41 Walter Courteney, knight. v. John, lord Dynham, feoffee to uses.: Refusal to complete a sale of messuages and land in Broad Clist and Silverton made by Walter Colbroke and Thomas Raynold.: Devon.
I could find nothing to confirm BURKE'S PEERAGE statement that Walter Colbroke was a knight. It's probable Walter married a Kilrington heiress, as there's a final PRO document:
C 1/107/26 Thomas Raynold v. Walter Quortney, knight, feoffee to
uses.: Messuages and land in Kylryngton, Monkeculme, Beare, and
Atford, late of Richard Kylryngton.: Devon.
Whether Richard Kylryngton above was Alice's brother, uncle, or other kinsman remains unknown.
Yet Alice's two marriages are linked. The mother of her first husband John de Vere was Joan Courtenay, widow of Sir Nicholas Carew, and daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Hacombe. So John de Vere was
kinsman to the Courtenay family of Powderham, of which her second husband Sir Walter Courtenay was a member.
If anyone has any further info on Alice or her father, I'd appreciate it.
Best regards, -------Brad Verity
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 4:23:14 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:37:03 AM UTC-8, Erwin Gomis wrote:
Op dinsdag 30 januari 2018 om 02:24:41 UTC+1 schreef lindaza...@gmail.com:
On Saturday, July 13, 2002 at 9:48:43 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
CP gives the parents of John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford, as "s. and
h. of John de Vere, by Alice, da. and coh. of Walter Kilrington, otherwise Colbroke."
BURKE'S PEERAGE 106th Edition(1999) says John de Vere's wife was "Alice, widow of Sir Walter Courtenay and daughter of Sir Walter Colbroke or Kilrington."
This is incorrect - the husbands are switched. Alice's first husband was John de Vere, by whom she was mother of the 15th Earl of Oxford. Her second husband was Sir Walter Courtenay, the fifth son of Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham and his wife Elizabeth Hungerford. The order of Alice's marriages is proved by the PRO document:
C 1/127/29 Walter Courteney, knight, and Alice, his wife, executrix of John Vere. v. Hugh Lynke and Robert Knavysborowe, executors of Nicholas Gosse, feoffee to uses.: The manors of Redwarry and Bodven, and messuages and land in Tregennowe (Cornwall), and in Exeter.
Sir Walter Courtenay is said to have died on 7 Nov. 1505/6, and to have had two sons (William and Walter) and a daughter (Katherine) by his wife Alice. Which would give the 15th Earl of Oxford three Courtenay half-siblings.
The background of Alice "Kilrington" remains obscure. Her father was known by the surname of Colbroke, and seems to have been a Devonshire
gentleman, as the following PRO documents attest:
C 1/26/352 Thomas, son of Nicholas Colbroke. v. Walter Colbroke: Lands called Colbroke and Dorwyke.
C 1/129/41 Walter Courteney, knight. v. John, lord Dynham, feoffee to
uses.: Refusal to complete a sale of messuages and land in Broad Clist
and Silverton made by Walter Colbroke and Thomas Raynold.: Devon.
I could find nothing to confirm BURKE'S PEERAGE statement that Walter
Colbroke was a knight. It's probable Walter married a Kilrington heiress, as there's a final PRO document:
C 1/107/26 Thomas Raynold v. Walter Quortney, knight, feoffee to uses.: Messuages and land in Kylryngton, Monkeculme, Beare, and Atford, late of Richard Kylryngton.: Devon.
Whether Richard Kylryngton above was Alice's brother, uncle, or other
kinsman remains unknown.
Yet Alice's two marriages are linked. The mother of her first husband
John de Vere was Joan Courtenay, widow of Sir Nicholas Carew, and daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Hacombe. So John de Vere was kinsman to the Courtenay family of Powderham, of which her second husband Sir Walter Courtenay was a member.
If anyone has any further info on Alice or her father, I'd appreciate
it.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/series2-vol3/pp33-56Good find Brad.Best regards, -------Brad Verity
Sir Walter evidently had an IPM
Can that be found so the age of his heir an be determined?
That might allow us to deteremin when they could have married
So a few things about this IPM
Since he created a charter naming his then-wife Alice 10H7 (1595), we can know they were married in or by that year
However he names in this same charter his three children Katherine, Walter, William
In his IPM dated 21H7, Walter his heir is then aged 15
So. Was Alice the mother of these three children? Or was the *point* of the charter to emphacize that she was their step mother and therefore he was ensuring she didn't steal the silverware when he died?
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 4:33:04 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 4:23:14 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:37:03 AM UTC-8, Erwin Gomis wrote:
Op dinsdag 30 januari 2018 om 02:24:41 UTC+1 schreef lindaza...@gmail.com:
On Saturday, July 13, 2002 at 9:48:43 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
CP gives the parents of John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford, as "s. and
h. of John de Vere, by Alice, da. and coh. of Walter Kilrington, otherwise Colbroke."
BURKE'S PEERAGE 106th Edition(1999) says John de Vere's wife was "Alice, widow of Sir Walter Courtenay and daughter of Sir Walter Colbroke or Kilrington."
This is incorrect - the husbands are switched. Alice's first husband
was John de Vere, by whom she was mother of the 15th Earl of Oxford.
Her second husband was Sir Walter Courtenay, the fifth son of Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham and his wife Elizabeth Hungerford. The
order of Alice's marriages is proved by the PRO document:
C 1/127/29 Walter Courteney, knight, and Alice, his wife, executrix
of John Vere. v. Hugh Lynke and Robert Knavysborowe, executors of Nicholas Gosse, feoffee to uses.: The manors of Redwarry and Bodven,
and messuages and land in Tregennowe (Cornwall), and in Exeter.
Sir Walter Courtenay is said to have died on 7 Nov. 1505/6, and to have had two sons (William and Walter) and a daughter (Katherine) by
his wife Alice. Which would give the 15th Earl of Oxford three Courtenay half-siblings.
The background of Alice "Kilrington" remains obscure. Her father was
known by the surname of Colbroke, and seems to have been a Devonshire
gentleman, as the following PRO documents attest:
C 1/26/352 Thomas, son of Nicholas Colbroke. v. Walter Colbroke: Lands called Colbroke and Dorwyke.
C 1/129/41 Walter Courteney, knight. v. John, lord Dynham, feoffee to
uses.: Refusal to complete a sale of messuages and land in Broad Clist
and Silverton made by Walter Colbroke and Thomas Raynold.: Devon.
I could find nothing to confirm BURKE'S PEERAGE statement that Walter
Colbroke was a knight. It's probable Walter married a Kilrington heiress, as there's a final PRO document:
C 1/107/26 Thomas Raynold v. Walter Quortney, knight, feoffee to uses.: Messuages and land in Kylryngton, Monkeculme, Beare, and Atford, late of Richard Kylryngton.: Devon.
Whether Richard Kylryngton above was Alice's brother, uncle, or other
kinsman remains unknown.
Yet Alice's two marriages are linked. The mother of her first husband
John de Vere was Joan Courtenay, widow of Sir Nicholas Carew, and daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Hacombe. So John de Vere was kinsman to the Courtenay family of Powderham, of which her second husband Sir Walter Courtenay was a member.
If anyone has any further info on Alice or her father, I'd appreciate
it.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/series2-vol3/pp33-56Good find Brad.Best regards, -------Brad Verity
Sir Walter evidently had an IPM
Can that be found so the age of his heir an be determined?
That might allow us to deteremin when they could have married
So a few things about this IPM
Since he created a charter naming his then-wife Alice 10H7 (1595), we can know they were married in or by that year
However he names in this same charter his three children Katherine, Walter, William
In his IPM dated 21H7, Walter his heir is then aged 15
So. Was Alice the mother of these three children? Or was the *point* of the charter to emphacize that she was their step mother and therefore he was ensuring she didn't steal the silverware when he died?There is another IPM which touches on this Alice
It is the IPM of her niece Joan Upton 8H7, only child of Alice' full sister alsonamed Joan, deceased
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/series2-vol1/pp344-364
In this IPM, Alice is specifically stated to be "aged 30 and more"
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 4:43:05 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 4:33:04 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 4:23:14 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:37:03 AM UTC-8, Erwin Gomis wrote:
Op dinsdag 30 januari 2018 om 02:24:41 UTC+1 schreef lindaza...@gmail.com:
On Saturday, July 13, 2002 at 9:48:43 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
CP gives the parents of John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford, as "s. and
h. of John de Vere, by Alice, da. and coh. of Walter Kilrington, otherwise Colbroke."
BURKE'S PEERAGE 106th Edition(1999) says John de Vere's wife was "Alice, widow of Sir Walter Courtenay and daughter of Sir Walter Colbroke or Kilrington."
This is incorrect - the husbands are switched. Alice's first husband
was John de Vere, by whom she was mother of the 15th Earl of Oxford.
Her second husband was Sir Walter Courtenay, the fifth son of Sir
Philip Courtenay of Powderham and his wife Elizabeth Hungerford. The
order of Alice's marriages is proved by the PRO document:
C 1/127/29 Walter Courteney, knight, and Alice, his wife, executrix
of John Vere. v. Hugh Lynke and Robert Knavysborowe, executors of
Nicholas Gosse, feoffee to uses.: The manors of Redwarry and Bodven,
and messuages and land in Tregennowe (Cornwall), and in Exeter.
Sir Walter Courtenay is said to have died on 7 Nov. 1505/6, and to
have had two sons (William and Walter) and a daughter (Katherine) by
his wife Alice. Which would give the 15th Earl of Oxford three Courtenay half-siblings.
The background of Alice "Kilrington" remains obscure. Her father was
known by the surname of Colbroke, and seems to have been a Devonshire
gentleman, as the following PRO documents attest:
C 1/26/352 Thomas, son of Nicholas Colbroke. v. Walter Colbroke: Lands called Colbroke and Dorwyke.
C 1/129/41 Walter Courteney, knight. v. John, lord Dynham, feoffee to
uses.: Refusal to complete a sale of messuages and land in Broad Clist
and Silverton made by Walter Colbroke and Thomas Raynold.: Devon.
I could find nothing to confirm BURKE'S PEERAGE statement that Walter
Colbroke was a knight. It's probable Walter married a Kilrington heiress, as there's a final PRO document:
C 1/107/26 Thomas Raynold v. Walter Quortney, knight, feoffee to uses.: Messuages and land in Kylryngton, Monkeculme, Beare, and Atford, late of Richard Kylryngton.: Devon.
Whether Richard Kylryngton above was Alice's brother, uncle, or other
kinsman remains unknown.
Yet Alice's two marriages are linked. The mother of her first husband
John de Vere was Joan Courtenay, widow of Sir Nicholas Carew, and
daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Hacombe. So John de Vere was kinsman to the Courtenay family of Powderham, of which her second
husband Sir Walter Courtenay was a member.
If anyone has any further info on Alice or her father, I'd appreciate
it.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/series2-vol3/pp33-56Good find Brad.Best regards, -------Brad Verity
Sir Walter evidently had an IPM
Can that be found so the age of his heir an be determined?
That might allow us to deteremin when they could have married
So a few things about this IPM
Since he created a charter naming his then-wife Alice 10H7 (1595), we can know they were married in or by that year
However he names in this same charter his three children Katherine, Walter, William
In his IPM dated 21H7, Walter his heir is then aged 15
So. Was Alice the mother of these three children? Or was the *point* of the charter to emphacize that she was their step mother and therefore he was ensuring she didn't steal the silverware when he died?There is another IPM which touches on this Alice
It is the IPM of her niece Joan Upton 8H7, only child of Alice' full sister alsonamed Joan, deceased
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/series2-vol1/pp344-364
In this IPM, Alice is specifically stated to be "aged 30 and more"I would say it's likely this is the son and heir Walter here
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8672774
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 297 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 05:18:10 |
| Calls: | 6,666 |
| Files: | 12,213 |
| Messages: | 5,335,948 |