Is anyone aware of any scholars who even bothered to refute the de Burgh invented ancestor John de Burgo/de Conteville, invented to bridge their fantasy tree with the Carolingian-descended Counts of Flanders, as supposed son of Baldwin III (at leastin some renderings)?
On 09-Mar-23 8:32 AM, taf wrote:in some renderings)?
Is anyone aware of any scholars who even bothered to refute the de Burgh invented ancestor John de Burgo/de Conteville, invented to bridge their fantasy tree with the Carolingian-descended Counts of Flanders, as supposed son of Baldwin III (at least
Gadzooks - rather ask "Is anyone aware of any scholars who are aware of it?", since outside this newsgroup it's fairly unlikely that anyone who
ever pulled on a scholar's boots would read many internet genealogies in
the first place.
On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 3:36:21 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart wrote:least in some renderings)?
On 09-Mar-23 8:32 AM, taf wrote:
Is anyone aware of any scholars who even bothered to refute the de Burgh invented ancestor John de Burgo/de Conteville, invented to bridge their fantasy tree with the Carolingian-descended Counts of Flanders, as supposed son of Baldwin III (at
as sons of the son-less 2nd Earl. I remember similar in O'Hart - I don't think he followed the Flanders connection either, but something else (I vaguely recall him trying to make a link to Godfrey of Jerusalem, but I don't remember specifics - it'sGadzooks - rather ask "Is anyone aware of any scholars who are aware of it?", since outside this newsgroup it's fairly unlikely that anyone who ever pulled on a scholar's boots would read many internet genealogies in the first place.Unfortunately, this nonsense long predates the internet. Burke's 1883 Extinct Peerage (p. 88, Burgh - Earl of Kent) has this John as father of Herluin de Conteville, tracing through the Moreton/Cornwall Earls, then appending Adelelm and John de Burgh,
On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 5:03:59 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:in some renderings)?
On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 3:36:21 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 09-Mar-23 8:32 AM, taf wrote:
Is anyone aware of any scholars who even bothered to refute the de Burgh invented ancestor John de Burgo/de Conteville, invented to bridge their fantasy tree with the Carolingian-descended Counts of Flanders, as supposed son of Baldwin III (at least
as sons of the son-less 2nd Earl. I remember similar in O'Hart - I don't think he followed the Flanders connection either, but something else (I vaguely recall him trying to make a link to Godfrey of Jerusalem, but I don't remember specifics - it'sUnfortunately, this nonsense long predates the internet. Burke's 1883 Extinct Peerage (p. 88, Burgh - Earl of Kent) has this John as father of Herluin de Conteville, tracing through the Moreton/Cornwall Earls, then appending Adelelm and John de Burgh,Gadzooks - rather ask "Is anyone aware of any scholars who are aware of
it?", since outside this newsgroup it's fairly unlikely that anyone who
ever pulled on a scholar's boots would read many internet genealogies in >>> the first place.
Godfrey, Roland and Charlemagne in the same line. Isn't that special.
Found the O'Hart absurdity (3rd ed, 1881, p. 416) - Herlouin de Conteville, son of John Earl of Comyn, son of Baldwin II of Flanders, son of Baldwin I, son of Godfrey of Bouillon, son of Roland, son of Charles Duke of Ingelheim, son of Charlemagne.
On 09-Mar-23 12:33 PM, taf wrote:Godfrey, Roland and Charlemagne in the same line. Isn't that special.
Found the O'Hart absurdity (3rd ed, 1881, p. 416) - Herlouin de Conteville, son of John Earl of Comyn, son of Baldwin II of Flanders, son of Baldwin I, son of Godfrey of Bouillon, son of Roland, son of Charles Duke of Ingelheim, son of Charlemagne.
In O'Hart's absurd version it is not Balduin II count of Flanders (died
918) as history knows him but instead Balduin II king of Jerusalem
(Balduin of Rethel, died 1131) wrongly called count of Flanders, see
here in a later edition: https://archive.org/details/irishpedigreesor021915/page/n83/mode/2up.
Balduin II of Jerusalem left four daughters, the eldest of whom was his heiress (married as second wife to Fulco V of Anjou). No sons of course, "earl of Comyn and baron of Toursbourg in Normandy" or otherwise, and obviously not one who could have been father of Herlouin du Bourg of Conteville ("Herlowen de Burgo") who married William the Conqueror's
mother around a century before Balduin of Rethel's death.
I doubt that
even a fanatical corrector such as Round would have troubled to stomp
this smelly mess underfoot, to soil the soles of his scholarly boots.
On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 7:09:49 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart wrote:Godfrey, Roland and Charlemagne in the same line. Isn't that special.
On 09-Mar-23 12:33 PM, taf wrote:
Found the O'Hart absurdity (3rd ed, 1881, p. 416) - Herlouin de Conteville, son of John Earl of Comyn, son of Baldwin II of Flanders, son of Baldwin I, son of Godfrey of Bouillon, son of Roland, son of Charles Duke of Ingelheim, son of Charlemagne.
coming off that one.In O'Hart's absurd version it is not Balduin II count of Flanders (died
918) as history knows him but instead Balduin II king of Jerusalem
(Balduin of Rethel, died 1131) wrongly called count of Flanders, see
here in a later edition:
https://archive.org/details/irishpedigreesor021915/page/n83/mode/2up.
Yep. Now that you point it out, it sparks my memory of this insertion of the non-father-to-son Jerusalem succession into the middle of this pedigree resulted in a double take. Even this then-novice with access to very few sources could smell the stench
Still, I have to think the Flanders nonsense is someone's attempt to 'fix' this O'Hart pedigree by substituting selecting a different Carolingian-descended Baldwin to be John's father.
Balduin II of Jerusalem left four daughters, the eldest of whom was his
heiress (married as second wife to Fulco V of Anjou). No sons of course,
"earl of Comyn and baron of Toursbourg in Normandy" or otherwise, and
obviously not one who could have been father of Herlouin du Bourg of
Conteville ("Herlowen de Burgo") who married William the Conqueror's
mother around a century before Balduin of Rethel's death.
Not to mention the problem on the other end, with Roland (d. 778) as father of Godfrey of Bouillon (d. 1100).
I doubt that
even a fanatical corrector such as Round would have troubled to stomp
this smelly mess underfoot, to soil the soles of his scholarly boots.
Probably right.
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