He seems to have fathered 3 other sons, according to A topographical history of
Surrey, by E.W. Brayley assisted by J. Britton and E.W. Brayley, junior, published in
1841.
On page 309, the author discussed Molesey, and mentions, apparently based on a
document from 1359 that I can not find at the National Archives, that Sampson settled his various possessions among his four sons, and that an inquisition took
place at that time.
more records about the larger family:
"899. Writ to William de Weston, escheator in Surrey, Sussex, Kent,
and Middlesex, and in the city of London. Tower of London. 18 June
19 Edward II. [1326.]
Surrey.
Inquisition : — Kyngeston. Saturday the eve of St. Margaret 20 Ed-
ward II.
Of twenty-seven acres of land of John de Matham in Haverichesham by Walton-on-Thames twenty are not held of the king in chief, and were purchased
by Walter son of Sampson de Moleseye, father of the said John's wife, from Nicholas de Hevere."
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinqu02grea/page/224/mode/1up
"Enrolment of deed by John de Matham, acknowledging receipt from Robert de Matham, parson of the church of Celne {sic) Engayne, of 25l 17s 0d ..."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo1.ark:/13960/t2m623f95&view=1up&seq=304
taf
Hamelin de Metham and Cecily Lyons are ancestral to Princess Diana
William Sydney who d 1462 is being shown here
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00349570&tree=LEO
as the son of that so-called "Elizabeth St John"
properly I believe Poynings as she was the daughter of
Thomas 2nd Lord Poynings, 6th Lord /St John/ of Basing
by his wife Joan Unknown
The paternal name should be Poynings, but perhaps they took St John from his mother
Isabel /St John/ , Baroness St John suo jure
d 1393
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:06:03 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:Thanks for looking this up.
Hamelin de Metham and Cecily Lyons are ancestral to Princess Diana
William Sydney who d 1462 is being shown here
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00349570&tree=LEO
as the son of that so-called "Elizabeth St John"
properly I believe Poynings as she was the daughter of
Thomas 2nd Lord Poynings, 6th Lord /St John/ of Basing
by his wife Joan Unknown
The paternal name should be Poynings, but perhaps they took St John from his mother
Isabel /St John/ , Baroness St John suo jureCorrection I should say that Elizabeth Poynings mother was
d 1393
I'm not sure which of Thomas' three wives was her mother
He was married to Joan Unknown
than as her third husband to Philippa Mortimer
and finally to Maud Mauley
10 February 1311: "Order to the justices of the Bench, after taking a fine from John Berwick upon de Matham, to deliver him from the prison of
the Flet to which they adjudged him because he presented Alice de
Hildebrand before them by the name of Margery de Matham to the
deception of the court, to appoint Simon de Goldyngton attorney of
the said Margery, as if Alice had been Margery, in a suit touching the
said John and Margery before them ; if he be detained for no other
cause."
On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 3:04:21 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:That sounds very interesting. I wonder what was going on. It seems he got another woman to impersonate his wife?
10 February 1311: "Order to the justices of the Bench, after taking a fine from John Berwick upon de Matham, to deliver him from the prison ofOops, I see some rogue text got in there. It should be:
the Flet to which they adjudged him because he presented Alice de Hildebrand before them by the name of Margery de Matham to the
deception of the court, to appoint Simon de Goldyngton attorney of
the said Margery, as if Alice had been Margery, in a suit touching the
said John and Margery before them ; if he be detained for no other
cause."
10 February 1311: "Order to the justices of the Bench, after taking a fine from John de Matham, to deliver him from the prison of the Flet ...."
taf
Hamelin de Metham and Cecily Lyons are ancestral to Princess DianaYour conjecture that the wife of William Sydney (d. 1452), was a Poynings rather than a St. John was discussed here in Feb. 2013. At that point you cited a Sydney pedigree in "The Gentleman's Magazine" in which William Sydney's wife was called "Isabel
William Sydney who d 1462 is being shown here
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00349570&tree=LEO
as the son of that so-called "Elizabeth St John"
properly I believe Poynings as she was the daughter of
Thomas 2nd Lord Poynings, 6th Lord /St John/ of Basing
by his wife Joan Unknown
The paternal name should be Poynings, but perhaps they took St John from his mother
Isabel /St John/ , Baroness St John suo jure
d 1393
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:06:03 PM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:St. John, daughter of the Lord St. John". It was pointed out, however, that the pedigree in "The Gentleman's Magazine" was almost certainly based on a fraudulent Sydney pedigree concocted for Sir Henry Sydney, father of the first Sydney Earl of Leicester.
Hamelin de Metham and Cecily Lyons are ancestral to Princess Diana
William Sydney who d 1462 is being shown here
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00349570&tree=LEO
as the son of that so-called "Elizabeth St John"
properly I believe Poynings as she was the daughter of
Thomas 2nd Lord Poynings, 6th Lord /St John/ of Basing
by his wife Joan Unknown
The paternal name should be Poynings, but perhaps they took St John from his mother
Isabel /St John/ , Baroness St John suo jureYour conjecture that the wife of William Sydney (d. 1452), was a Poynings rather than a St. John was discussed here in Feb. 2013. At that point you cited a Sydney pedigree in "The Gentleman's Magazine" in which William Sydney's wife was called "Isabel
d 1393
And as to "Joan Unknown", wife of Thomas Poynings, CP 11:329, note c indicates that she was a daughter of Roger Strange, Lord Strange of Knokin, citing a Poynings pedigree in Sussex Archaeological Collections in vol. 15 (1863). (The latter pedigree,incidentally, makes no mention of a Poynings-Sydney marriage - but does giving an additional wife to Thomas Poynings)
https://archive.org/details/sussexarchaeolog15suss_0/page/n9/mode/2upcreated a peerage. But this claim to a supposed peerage - by a much later heir - was disallowed in 1914 by the Committee for Privileges (of the House of Lords). See CP vol. 14, p. 563 (sub St. John of Basing), and also a good article by H. L. Round, "The
Finally, Thomas Poynings was never "Lord Poynings", as you have referred to him above. He was deemed, by modern peerage writers (notably CP), to have been "2nd Lord St. John", based on his father Luke's summons to Parliament which was said to have
https://archive.org/details/sussexarchaeolog62suss
Probably worth summarizing [brackets are information from VCH Herts and other secondary sources]:Thanks for the summary.
____ de Matham [apparently Geoffrey, or alternatively John and wife Isabel, both Matham men appearing in late-1200s/early-1300s per VCH Herts]
...Simon de Matham, dsp., leaving widow Joanna, who in 1316 was married to Stephen de Abyndone
...John de Matham (next)
...(perhaps) Robert de Matham, cleric
John de Matham, d. sh. bef. 10 Sep. 1333, married (apparently Margery), daughter of Walter son of Sampson de Moleseye
...Walter de Matham, eldest son and heir, b. 1302 or before, d.s.p. sh. bef. 8 Feb. 1334. left widow Margery, later wife in 1337 of William de Standerwyk
...Sampson de Matham b. ca. 1303 (next)
...Thomas de Matham, fl. 1329
...Margery de Matham, fl. 1329
Sampson de Matham, b. ca. 1303, fl. 1365, m. (prob. shortly before 1329) Margaret, fl. 1365
...Hamelin de Matham, eldest son and heir (next)
...Sampson de Matham, fl. 1393
...Geoffrey de Matham, fl. 1379
...Thomas de Matham, fl. 1359
...John de Matham, fl. 1359, perhaps dead by 1384, when a Close Roll entry referes to land held by the heir of John Matham
Hamelin de Matham, d. bef. 2 July 1382, m. before 1379, Cecily [Lyons] [...Elizabeth de Matham m. John Thorpe]
[...Margaret de Matham m. John Mitchell]
taf
Apparently the Moleseys are said to go back to the Norman conquest, but I don't
know if that can be proved.
In any case, the page on Molesey
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/surrey/vol3/pp451-456
Suggests that the wife of John de Matham was Isabella de Molesey, and that she
was daughter and heiress of Walter, son of Sampson, and that her guardian was one Roger Clifford in 1279.
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:48:00 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:the case was when it came into vogue to claim ancestry from BEFORE the Conquest. Such claims should be given no weight.
Apparently the Moleseys are said to go back to the Norman conquest, but I don'tUnfortunately, it was all too common for antiquarian sources written before the end of the 19th century (and by non-scholarly genealogists to modern times) to make such claims for pretty much every family. The only instances where this seemed not to be
know if that can be proved.
the same John who was father of Sampson, who by 1310 was married to a Margery, and didn't die until 1333. I guess there are two alternative ways to square the circle here. One is to view VCH Herts as wrong, that Isabel died by 1304 just after birthingIn any case, the page on Molesey
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/surrey/vol3/pp451-456
Suggests that the wife of John de Matham was Isabella de Molesey, and that sheHmm. I am not sure what to make of this. VCH Herts has John de Matham and his wife Isabel appearing in the late 1200s, which would appear to be the couple in question, yet it relates that both were dead by 1304. Were this the case, this John cannot be
was daughter and heiress of Walter, son of Sampson, and that her guardian was
one Roger Clifford in 1279.
taf
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:48:00 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:the case was when it came into vogue to claim ancestry from BEFORE the Conquest. Such claims should be given no weight.
Apparently the Moleseys are said to go back to the Norman conquest, but I don'tUnfortunately, it was all too common for antiquarian sources written before the end of the 19th century (and by non-scholarly genealogists to modern times) to make such claims for pretty much every family. The only instances where this seemed not to be
know if that can be proved.
the same John who was father of Sampson, who by 1310 was married to a Margery, and didn't die until 1333. I guess there are two alternative ways to square the circle here. One is to view VCH Herts as wrong, that Isabel died by 1304 just after birthingIn any case, the page on Molesey
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/surrey/vol3/pp451-456
Suggests that the wife of John de Matham was Isabella de Molesey, and that sheHmm. I am not sure what to make of this. VCH Herts has John de Matham and his wife Isabel appearing in the late 1200s, which would appear to be the couple in question, yet it relates that both were dead by 1304. Were this the case, this John cannot be
was daughter and heiress of Walter, son of Sampson, and that her guardian was
one Roger Clifford in 1279.
taf
That footnote is to Manning and Bray, Hist. of Surr. ii, 782, from the Pipe R.
So I went to look for a pdf version of that history, and there is one available at google books
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_and_Antiquities_of_the_Count/Yms-AQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=MOLESEY
and it turns out that the copy skips from page 780 to 787!
There must be a more complete copy somewhere.
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:06:03 PM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:St. John, daughter of the Lord St. John". It was pointed out, however, that the pedigree in "The Gentleman's Magazine" was almost certainly based on a fraudulent Sydney pedigree concocted for Sir Henry Sydney, father of the first Sydney Earl of Leicester.
Hamelin de Metham and Cecily Lyons are ancestral to Princess Diana
William Sydney who d 1462 is being shown here
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00349570&tree=LEO
as the son of that so-called "Elizabeth St John"
properly I believe Poynings as she was the daughter of
Thomas 2nd Lord Poynings, 6th Lord /St John/ of Basing
by his wife Joan Unknown
The paternal name should be Poynings, but perhaps they took St John from his mother
Isabel /St John/ , Baroness St John suo jureYour conjecture that the wife of William Sydney (d. 1452), was a Poynings rather than a St. John was discussed here in Feb. 2013. At that point you cited a Sydney pedigree in "The Gentleman's Magazine" in which William Sydney's wife was called "Isabel
d 1393
And as to "Joan Unknown", wife of Thomas Poynings, CP 11:329, note c indicates that she was a daughter of Roger Strange, Lord Strange of Knokin, citing a Poynings pedigree in Sussex Archaeological Collections in vol. 15 (1863). (The latter pedigree,incidentally, makes no mention of a Poynings-Sydney marriage - but does giving an additional wife to Thomas Poynings)
https://archive.org/details/sussexarchaeolog15suss_0/page/n9/mode/2upcreated a peerage. But this claim to a supposed peerage - by a much later heir - was disallowed in 1914 by the Committee for Privileges (of the House of Lords). See CP vol. 14, p. 563 (sub St. John of Basing), and also a good article by H. L. Round, "The
Finally, Thomas Poynings was never "Lord Poynings", as you have referred to him above. He was deemed, by modern peerage writers (notably CP), to have been "2nd Lord St. John", based on his father Luke's summons to Parliament which was said to have
https://archive.org/details/sussexarchaeolog62suss
This footnote on Harl MSS 1160 gives us the descent although a tad vague
https://books.google.com/books?id=FSwAAAAAQAAJ&dq=sydney%20of%20kingsham&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=true
Beatrice /Knotsford/ , maid of honor to the Queen Elizabeth Woodville (1464-1492)
was the daughter of some Miss Sydney who had m a Knottesford
and this last was the daughter of
William /Sydney/ of Kingesham by Chichester, co Sussex (as Lord); MP co Sussex 1429, 1433; Knt
by his second wife
Cecily /Michell/
On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 3:52:45 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
This footnote on Harl MSS 1160 gives us the descent although a tad vague
https://books.google.com/books?id=FSwAAAAAQAAJ&dq=sydney%20of%20kingsham&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=true
Beatrice /Knotsford/ , maid of honor to the Queen Elizabeth Woodville (1464-1492)I believe I figured out at one point that these people were ancestral to American immigrants Elizabeth (Hussey) Scott of Massachusetts Bay and Thomas Hussey of Maryland.
was the daughter of some Miss Sydney who had m a Knottesford
and this last was the daughter of
William /Sydney/ of Kingesham by Chichester, co Sussex (as Lord); MP co Sussex 1429, 1433; Knt
by his second wife
Cecily /Michell/
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/hussey-john-i-1520-c72
https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_the_Western_Division_of_the/MFoMAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hussey+michell+apsley&pg=PA243&printsec=frontcover
On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 4:09:06 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:
On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 3:52:45 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
This footnote on Harl MSS 1160 gives us the descent although a tad vague
https://books.google.com/books?id=FSwAAAAAQAAJ&dq=sydney%20of%20kingsham&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=true
Beatrice /Knotsford/ , maid of honor to the Queen Elizabeth Woodville (1464-1492)I believe I figured out at one point that these people were ancestral to American immigrants Elizabeth (Hussey) Scott of Massachusetts Bay and Thomas Hussey of Maryland.
was the daughter of some Miss Sydney who had m a Knottesford
and this last was the daughter of
William /Sydney/ of Kingesham by Chichester, co Sussex (as Lord); MP co Sussex 1429, 1433; Knt
by his second wife
Cecily /Michell/
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/hussey-john-i-1520-c72
https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_the_Western_Division_of_the/MFoMAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hussey+michell+apsley&pg=PA243&printsec=frontcoverThis book has a chart showing Margaret Sidney, wife of Richard Knutsford, as a daughter of William Sidney, d. 1454, by Thomasine Barrington.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Sidneys_of_Penshurst/iOkkhOhy2MIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=thomasine+barrington+knutsford&pg=PT2&printsec=frontcover
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 295 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 04:03:02 |
| Calls: | 6,642 |
| Calls today: | 2 |
| Files: | 12,190 |
| Messages: | 5,325,736 |