Trolling around Wikipedia, I came across the claim that Havoise/Hawise de Guingamp, wife of Stephen/Étienne de Penthièvre was daughter of Theobald III of Blois, citing a 2010 work by Stéphane Morin:

Morin, Stéphane (2010). Trégor, Goëlo, Penthièvre. Le pouvoir des Comtes de Bretagne du XIIe au XIIIe siècle. Presses Universitaires de Rennes, p. 184.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen,_Count_of_Tr%C3%A9guier )

The work does not appear to be online in book format. A text-based presentation of the relevant chapter can be found here:

https://books.openedition.org/pur/128046#bodyftn92

but I never liked reading anything in this presentation format, and in part because it has been stripped of page numbers, I have failed to find any text relevant to this claimed parentage. It could be that I missed it, or it could be that Wikipedia is
misciting it.

Anyone familiar with this claim?

As a bonus question, anyone aware of one of the onomastic genealogy wariors trying to make sense of the name of their attributed daughter Theophania? It seems to be begging for somone to connect Hawise with one of the rare Byzantine marriages.

taf

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On 27-Feb-23 11:45 AM, taf wrote:

Trolling around Wikipedia, I came across the claim that Havoise/Hawise de Guingamp, wife of Stephen/Étienne de Penthièvre was daughter of Theobald III of Blois, citing a 2010 work by Stéphane Morin:

Morin, Stéphane (2010). Trégor, Goëlo, Penthièvre. Le pouvoir des Comtes de Bretagne du XIIe au XIIIe siècle. Presses Universitaires de Rennes, p. 184.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen,_Count_of_Tr%C3%A9guier )

The work does not appear to be online in book format. A text-based presentation of the relevant chapter can be found here:

https://books.openedition.org/pur/128046#bodyftn92

but I never liked reading anything in this presentation format, and in part because it has been stripped of page numbers, I have failed to find any text relevant to this claimed parentage. It could be that I missed it, or it could be that Wikipedia is

misciting it.

Anyone familiar with this claim?

As a bonus question, anyone aware of one of the onomastic genealogy wariors trying to make sense of the name of their attributed daughter Theophania? It seems to be begging for somone to connect Hawise with one of the rare Byzantine marriages.

I agree about the format, but you can find this proposal in chapter 2,
from section 85 (pp. 101-103 in the print edition). From a later
elaboration (2014) it is a weak case based on the notion that Hawise was
not the heiress of Guingamp because this does not appear as a county
until after her husband's death (as if she could not possibly have
inherited it as a seigneury), and because her descendants had some links
with abbeys in the Blésois.

As for Theophania, I dare say not even the Byzantines would have claimed exclusive rights to the name - or to the phenomenon of theophany for
that matter, though they might have disputed its ever applying in the West.

Peter Stewart


--
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Op maandag 27 februari 2023 om 01:45:55 UTC+1 schreef taf:

Trolling around Wikipedia, I came across the claim that Havoise/Hawise de Guingamp, wife of Stephen/Étienne de Penthièvre was daughter of Theobald III of Blois, citing a 2010 work by Stéphane Morin:

Morin, Stéphane (2010). Trégor, Goëlo, Penthièvre. Le pouvoir des Comtes de Bretagne du XIIe au XIIIe siècle. Presses Universitaires de Rennes, p. 184.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen,_Count_of_Tr%C3%A9guier )

The work does not appear to be online in book format. A text-based presentation of the relevant chapter can be found here:

https://books.openedition.org/pur/128046#bodyftn92

but I never liked reading anything in this presentation format, and in part because it has been stripped of page numbers, I have failed to find any text relevant to this claimed parentage. It could be that I missed it, or it could be that Wikipedia is

misciting it.

Anyone familiar with this claim?

As a bonus question, anyone aware of one of the onomastic genealogy wariors trying to make sense of the name of their attributed daughter Theophania? It seems to be begging for somone to connect Hawise with one of the rare Byzantine marriages.

taf

Trolling or strolling?
:-)

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On 27/02/2023 00:45, taf wrote:

Trolling around Wikipedia, I came across the claim that Havoise/Hawise de Guingamp, wife of Stephen/Étienne de Penthièvre was daughter of Theobald III of Blois, citing a 2010 work by Stéphane Morin:

Morin, Stéphane (2010). Trégor, Goëlo, Penthièvre. Le pouvoir des Comtes de Bretagne du XIIe au XIIIe siècle. Presses Universitaires de Rennes, p. 184.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen,_Count_of_Tr%C3%A9guier )

The work does not appear to be online in book format. A text-based presentation of the relevant chapter can be found here:

https://books.openedition.org/pur/128046#bodyftn92

but I never liked reading anything in this presentation format, and in part because it has been stripped of page numbers, I have failed to find any text relevant to this claimed parentage. It could be that I missed it, or it could be that Wikipedia is

misciting it.

Anyone familiar with this claim?

As a bonus question, anyone aware of one of the onomastic genealogy wariors trying to make sense of the name of their attributed daughter Theophania? It seems to be begging for somone to connect Hawise with one of the rare Byzantine marriages.

taf

The cited page number seems to be wrong. The hypothesis as to Havoise's parentage is argued in Chapter II of the book (comprising pages 69-125), starting around paragraph 84 (paragraph numbers in the left hand margin
of the online text).

I don't have enough knowledge of these families to comment sensibly on it.
--
Chris Pitt Lewis

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On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 11:29:03 PM UTC-8, Hans Vogels wrote:

Op maandag 27 februari 2023 om 01:45:55 UTC+1 schreef taf:

Trolling around Wikipedia, I came across the claim that Havoise/Hawise de Guingamp, wife of Stephen/Étienne de Penthièvre was daughter of Theobald III of Blois, citing a 2010 work by Stéphane Morin:

Morin, Stéphane (2010). Trégor, Goëlo, Penthièvre. Le pouvoir des Comtes de Bretagne du XIIe au XIIIe siècle. Presses Universitaires de Rennes, p. 184.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen,_Count_of_Tr%C3%A9guier )

The work does not appear to be online in book format. A text-based presentation of the relevant chapter can be found here:

https://books.openedition.org/pur/128046#bodyftn92

but I never liked reading anything in this presentation format, and in part because it has been stripped of page numbers, I have failed to find any text relevant to this claimed parentage. It could be that I missed it, or it could be that Wikipedia

is misciting it.

Anyone familiar with this claim?

As a bonus question, anyone aware of one of the onomastic genealogy wariors trying to make sense of the name of their attributed daughter Theophania? It seems to be begging for somone to connect Hawise with one of the rare Byzantine marriages.

taf

Trolling or strolling?
:-)

Trolling, but more in the original, pre-internet lingo - running a lot of lines to see if I catch anything interesting.

taf

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