My response from our Facebook group French Canadian Royal Gateways:Joyeuse and des Ancherins lineages from Francois de Joyeuse to include Charles Cawley and others.
After reading The Joyeuse Ancestry of the Couvents by John P. DuLong I recommend everyone who is a descendant of Anne Couvent read it. This amazingly well prepared research documents a full throated response to the questions out there regarding the de
I am more than satisfied that what remains at this present moment gives us all confidence to call ourselves descendants of Robert de Joyeuse. Thank you so much John for this gift, and I call it a gift because it is rare to find someone who takes in allof the criticisms and responds with such a mastery of analytical research.
Thank you!!!Darrell, Thanks for letting us know this. What a great development, after the exchanges we had on the other thread recently about evidence for Anne Couvent gateway. Eager to read the new information!
Darrell
My response from our Facebook group French Canadian Royal Gateways:Joyeuse and des Ancherins lineages from Francois de Joyeuse to include Charles Cawley and others.
After reading The Joyeuse Ancestry of the Couvents by John P. DuLong I recommend everyone who is a descendant of Anne Couvent read it. This amazingly well prepared research documents a full throated response to the questions out there regarding the de
I am more than satisfied that what remains at this present moment gives us all confidence to call ourselves descendants of Robert de Joyeuse. Thank you so much John for this gift, and I call it a gift because it is rare to find someone who takes in allof the criticisms and responds with such a mastery of analytical research.
Thank you!!!Darrell, Have read through Mr. DeLong's paper and feel great on two levels.
Darrell
Not to be too petty, but my surname is DuLong, not Delong.Misspelling names is a particular pet peeve of mine! My apologies, John.
No problem. I am a bad speller now in English and French.John, Am so glad to hear this translation will come out soon. Am looking forward to reading it. My French is miniscule and what there is of it is rusty...
By the way, I hope to post an English translation of the 1733 genealogy of the Joyeuse family by next week. I am slowly working my way through the translation done by a friend adding substantive footnotes.
I referred to Jeanne as dame of Havrincourt, but I do not see Père Anselme mentioning that title nor any of these other sources. I frankly cannot recall where I got that from as it is not in my notes.accordingly.
I would say that there is enough doubt here that it would be better to just say that she was probably of the Coucy family, but her parents are not known with any certainty. I would also drop the dame of Havrincourt. I will adjust the armorial lineage
The important point is the Jeanne de Châtillon, the wife of Jean VI de Ghistelles, is still the daughter of Gaucher de Châtillon and the granddaughter of Guy de Châtillon and Marie de Lorraine.
I referred to Jeanne as dame of Havrincourt, but I do not see Père Anselme mentioning that title nor any of these other sources. I frankly cannot recall where I got that from as it is not in my notes.accordingly.
I would say that there is enough doubt here that it would be better to just say that she was probably of the Coucy family, but her parents are not known with any certainty. I would also drop the dame of Havrincourt. I will adjust the armorial lineage
On 12-Mar-23 8:37 AM, JPD wrote:
Regarding the armorial lineages for Thibault I, King of Navarre.
Checking my memory, I believe I relied on Père Anselme’s Maison royale
de France for generation XII. However, I did not use the citation you
give, that is, 6:114, but rather 6:125-126. This indicates that
Gaucher de Châtillon, lord of La Fère and St-Lambert, viscount of
Blaigny, was married to Jeanne de Coucy, the daughter of Guillaume,
seigneur of Coucy and Marle, and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol. However,
when you check 8:544-545 under Coucy, Jeanne is not listed as a child
of Guillaume de Coucy and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol.
I also checked Duchesne, Preuves de l'histoire des maisons de Guines,
d'Ardres, Gand, et Coucy (1631), and find that Jeanne is not mentioned
as a child of Enguerrand VI de Coucy and Catherine of Austria or of
Guillaume de Coucy and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol (see pp. 260-261
and 264). She is not mentioned either in Europäische Stammtafeln, 7,
part 2:80-82 under Coucy but is found listed without parents on 7,
part 2:19, under Châtillon-sur-Marne.
I referred to Jeanne as dame of Havrincourt, but I do not see Père
Anselme mentioning that title nor any of these other sources. I
frankly cannot recall where I got that from as it is not in my notes.
I would say that there is enough doubt here that it would be better to
just say that she was probably of the Coucy family, but her parents
are not known with any certainty. I would also drop the dame of
Havrincourt. I will adjust the armorial lineage accordingly.
According to Maxime de Sars in *Le Laonnais féodal*, vol. 4 (1931) p.
209, Guillaume, seigneur of Coucy, and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol did
have a daughter named Jeanne, but she was not married - she was a nun at Notre-Dame de Soissons, where she died on 6 July 1379.
Regarding the armorial lineages for Thibault I, King of Navarre. Checking my memory, I believe I relied on Père Anselme’s Maison royale de France for generation XII. However, I did not use the citation you give, that is, 6:114, but rather 6:125-126.This indicates that Gaucher de Châtillon, lord of La Fère and St-Lambert, viscount of Blaigny, was married to Jeanne de Coucy, the daughter of Guillaume, seigneur of Coucy and Marle, and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol. However, when you check 8:544-545
I also checked Duchesne, Preuves de l'histoire des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, Gand, et Coucy (1631), and find that Jeanne is not mentioned as a child of Enguerrand VI de Coucy and Catherine of Austria or of Guillaume de Coucy and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol (see pp. 260-261 and 264). She is not mentioned either in Europäische Stammtafeln, 7, part 2:80-82 under Coucy but is found listed without parents on 7, part 2:19, under Châtillon-sur-Marne.
I referred to Jeanne as dame of Havrincourt, but I do not see Père Anselme mentioning that title nor any of these other sources. I frankly cannot recall where I got that from as it is not in my notes.accordingly.
I would say that there is enough doubt here that it would be better to just say that she was probably of the Coucy family, but her parents are not known with any certainty. I would also drop the dame of Havrincourt. I will adjust the armorial lineage
According to Maxime de Sars in *Le Laonnais féodal*, vol. 4 (1931) p.
209, Guillaume, seigneur of Coucy, and Isabeau of Châtillon-St-Pol did
have a daughter named Jeanne, but she was not married - she was a nun at >Notre-Dame de Soissons, where she died on 6 July 1379.
Her epitaph can be found here (no. 1219) https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k415622q/f578.item.
Peter Stewart
Given the lack of evidence regarding Jeanne, the wife of Gaucher de Châtillon, I think the best thing to do on the armorial lineage is to remove the Coucy arms and just identify her as of unknown or uncertain parentage. The connection to Thibault IV,King of Navarre, does not run through her anyway, but through her husband.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 297 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 10:52:23 |
| Calls: | 6,666 |
| Files: | 12,213 |
| Messages: | 5,336,371 |