I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r".damas in foresta de Essex ad festum de filia Roberti de Mucegros uxore sua domum adducenda ce[le]brandum, de dono regis.
I looked up the Close Rolls and sure enough we find that under October 1245 they mention a gift of deer for Geoffrey's feast when he brings his bride home. De damis datis.—Mandatum est Ricardo de Munfichet quod faciat habere Galfrido de Ambely iij.
The spelling variations for Geoffrey (Galfridus) and his brother William make it difficult to track them but they appear for example in the Book of Fees. Their lands were in Essex, Suffolk, and Norfolk. I eventually found that Moor's Knight's of EdwardI has entries for the brothers under Aumblye. Which leads me to Geoffrey's daughter, Eleanor who is mentioned in the 1291 IPM of her husband John de Bathonia. Their heir is clearly named as Joan, the wife of John de Boun. This John is found for example
Unfortunately I do not yet see any evidence that Geoffrey only had one wife, but maybe someone else will find something.
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 8:47:19 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:damas in foresta de Essex ad festum de filia Roberti de Mucegros uxore sua domum adducenda ce[le]brandum, de dono regis.
I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r".
I looked up the Close Rolls and sure enough we find that under October 1245 they mention a gift of deer for Geoffrey's feast when he brings his bride home. De damis datis.—Mandatum est Ricardo de Munfichet quod faciat habere Galfrido de Ambely iij.
Edward I has entries for the brothers under Aumblye. Which leads me to Geoffrey's daughter, Eleanor who is mentioned in the 1291 IPM of her husband John de Bathonia. Their heir is clearly named as Joan, the wife of John de Boun. This John is found forThe spelling variations for Geoffrey (Galfridus) and his brother William make it difficult to track them but they appear for example in the Book of Fees. Their lands were in Essex, Suffolk, and Norfolk. I eventually found that Moor's Knight's of
Unfortunately I do not yet see any evidence that Geoffrey only had one wife, but maybe someone else will find something.https://www.google.com/books/edition/Abstracts_of_Wiltshire_Inquisitions_Post/tvbZrWUkJPEC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=john+de+bathonia&pg=PA185&printsec=frontcover
I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r".
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 8:47:19 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r".
There is an Amberleye, co. Heref., mentioned in the inquisition of Master Alexander le Seculare, 31 Hen. III.
taf
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 6:56:22 AM UTC+1, taf wrote:impression that it might be quite a different placename. I am keeping an open mind about the origin of the byname.
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 8:47:19 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r".
There is an Amberleye, co. Heref., mentioned in the inquisition of Master Alexander le Seculare, 31 Hen. III.
tafThat's one possibility. OTOH I am wondering if any of the primary records have a spelling with an "r". The Close Rolls record seems to be the closest one to Amberley (at least in transcription), but some of the other spellings I have seen give the
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 7:54:03 AM UTC+1, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:impression that it might be quite a different placename. I am keeping an open mind about the origin of the byname.
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 6:56:22 AM UTC+1, taf wrote:
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 8:47:19 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r".
There is an Amberleye, co. Heref., mentioned in the inquisition of Master Alexander le Seculare, 31 Hen. III.
tafThat's one possibility. OTOH I am wondering if any of the primary records have a spelling with an "r". The Close Rolls record seems to be the closest one to Amberley (at least in transcription), but some of the other spellings I have seen give the
I could not open the Google Books link to the Wiltshire IPM but maybe this is the same work? https://archive.org/details/indexlibrary372brit/page/184/mode/2upcalendarofmanus01grea/calendarofmanus01grea.pdf
A more complete transcription of the IPM is on British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol2/pp486-498
I also found some more snippets.
I did not realize that The Knights of Edward can be seen on archive.org. Here are links for the de Aumblye brothers (who were both knights) https://archive.org/details/publicationsofha80harluoft/page/26/mode/2up
...And for the de Bathonia knights https://archive.org/details/publicationsofha80harluoft/page/58/mode/2up
There was a short note about John de Bathonia's earlier wife Phillipe in The Genealogist https://archive.org/details/genealogist1518selb/page/n159/mode/2up
I am not sure if anyone has done a comprehensive study of the de Bathonia name, but the surname or byname comes from Bath. It was used by many clerics connected to the diocese of Bath and Wells. https://ia800301.us.archive.org/19/items/
I found that in old books about London history John de Bathonia's mother was supposedly named Alice, and she died in 1274, seized of a messuage in Stepney which John later held. Their name is supposedly the origin of the placename Bethnal Green https://ia801609.us.archive.org/28/items/municipalparksga00sexbrich/municipalparksga00sexbrich.pdf
The Fine Rolls have several entries about them, and apparently indicate that "Alice" was an Aline. https://archive.org/details/calendaroffinero01lond/page/26/mode/2up?q=bathoniareenfeoffed the said John son of Henry, and Maud his wife jointly of the said manor, so that after the death of her husband the manor should remain to the said Maud for her life, and after her death revert to the heirs of the said John". John d. 1291 is
Foss calls her "Aliva", and names John's father as Henry de Bathonia, a judge, but he has two generations of Johns between Aliva and Joan de Bohun. https://archive.org/details/judgesenglandwi00fossgoog/page/226/mode/2up
In fact the IPM of John in 1291 shows that there were several Johns. "Pincebeck. The manor (extent given), whereof John son of Henry de Bathonia enfeoffed John son of John de Bathonia, sometime rector of the church of Gerbodesham, who afterwards
John son of John the rector may be an older relative?
What I am still not sure about is whether Eleanor's mother was a Muscegros.
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 1:53:00 PM UTC+1, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:.
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 10:58:47 AM UTC+1, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 7:54:03 AM UTC+1, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 6:56:22 AM UTC+1, taf wrote:
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 8:47:19 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r"
the impression that it might be quite a different placename. I am keeping an open mind about the origin of the byname.There is an Amberleye, co. Heref., mentioned in the inquisition of Master Alexander le Seculare, 31 Hen. III.
tafThat's one possibility. OTOH I am wondering if any of the primary records have a spelling with an "r". The Close Rolls record seems to be the closest one to Amberley (at least in transcription), but some of the other spellings I have seen give
calendarofmanus01grea/calendarofmanus01grea.pdfI could not open the Google Books link to the Wiltshire IPM but maybe this is the same work? https://archive.org/details/indexlibrary372brit/page/184/mode/2up
A more complete transcription of the IPM is on British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol2/pp486-498
I also found some more snippets.
I did not realize that The Knights of Edward can be seen on archive.org. Here are links for the de Aumblye brothers (who were both knights) https://archive.org/details/publicationsofha80harluoft/page/26/mode/2up
...And for the de Bathonia knights https://archive.org/details/publicationsofha80harluoft/page/58/mode/2up
There was a short note about John de Bathonia's earlier wife Phillipe in The Genealogist https://archive.org/details/genealogist1518selb/page/n159/mode/2up
I am not sure if anyone has done a comprehensive study of the de Bathonia name, but the surname or byname comes from Bath. It was used by many clerics connected to the diocese of Bath and Wells. https://ia800301.us.archive.org/19/items/
https://ia801609.us.archive.org/28/items/municipalparksga00sexbrich/municipalparksga00sexbrich.pdfI found that in old books about London history John de Bathonia's mother was supposedly named Alice, and she died in 1274, seized of a messuage in Stepney which John later held. Their name is supposedly the origin of the placename Bethnal Green
reenfeoffed the said John son of Henry, and Maud his wife jointly of the said manor, so that after the death of her husband the manor should remain to the said Maud for her life, and after her death revert to the heirs of the said John". John d. 1291 isThe Fine Rolls have several entries about them, and apparently indicate that "Alice" was an Aline. https://archive.org/details/calendaroffinero01lond/page/26/mode/2up?q=bathonia
Foss calls her "Aliva", and names John's father as Henry de Bathonia, a judge, but he has two generations of Johns between Aliva and Joan de Bohun. https://archive.org/details/judgesenglandwi00fossgoog/page/226/mode/2up
In fact the IPM of John in 1291 shows that there were several Johns. "Pincebeck. The manor (extent given), whereof John son of Henry de Bathonia enfeoffed John son of John de Bathonia, sometime rector of the church of Gerbodesham, who afterwards
that one Galfrid of this name had a son named William and a sister Roesia who married Alexander de Limesi. https://archive.org/details/cartulariummonasteriisanctijohannisb1John son of John the rector may be an older relative?
What I am still not sure about is whether Eleanor's mother was a Muscegros.The "Amberley" family is more typically Aumbly or Ambly it seems. Using the typical endings of the time -y or -ye or -ie or -i gets more hits for Galfrid and his brother William. It seems from the chartulary of Saint John the baptist in Colchester
By tracking some of the lands I see that in 1086 they were held by Roger de Oburville, or Auberville, but Keats-Rohan helpfully points to Farrer, HKF III, p.174 which is about the "Amblie" family who took over the Auberville lands already in the 12thcentury. Farrer tracks them down to the people and events I have mentioned, and can be used as a reference point for this family.
FWIW the Auberville lands eventually went from John de Bohun and his wife to a cousin, Willliam de Buhun, who became Earl of Northampton. Richardson says that the lands first went to a son of John and Joan named John. After William died the lands wentto the Earls of Hereford.
Unfortunately I can't see any way to track Muscegros lands in this way, because these families were not Muscegros heirs.
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 10:58:47 AM UTC+1, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:impression that it might be quite a different placename. I am keeping an open mind about the origin of the byname.
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 7:54:03 AM UTC+1, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 6:56:22 AM UTC+1, taf wrote:
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 8:47:19 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r".
There is an Amberleye, co. Heref., mentioned in the inquisition of Master Alexander le Seculare, 31 Hen. III.
tafThat's one possibility. OTOH I am wondering if any of the primary records have a spelling with an "r". The Close Rolls record seems to be the closest one to Amberley (at least in transcription), but some of the other spellings I have seen give the
calendarofmanus01grea/calendarofmanus01grea.pdfI could not open the Google Books link to the Wiltshire IPM but maybe this is the same work? https://archive.org/details/indexlibrary372brit/page/184/mode/2up
A more complete transcription of the IPM is on British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol2/pp486-498
I also found some more snippets.
I did not realize that The Knights of Edward can be seen on archive.org. Here are links for the de Aumblye brothers (who were both knights) https://archive.org/details/publicationsofha80harluoft/page/26/mode/2up
...And for the de Bathonia knights https://archive.org/details/publicationsofha80harluoft/page/58/mode/2up
There was a short note about John de Bathonia's earlier wife Phillipe in The Genealogist https://archive.org/details/genealogist1518selb/page/n159/mode/2up
I am not sure if anyone has done a comprehensive study of the de Bathonia name, but the surname or byname comes from Bath. It was used by many clerics connected to the diocese of Bath and Wells. https://ia800301.us.archive.org/19/items/
//ia801609.us.archive.org/28/items/municipalparksga00sexbrich/municipalparksga00sexbrich.pdfI found that in old books about London history John de Bathonia's mother was supposedly named Alice, and she died in 1274, seized of a messuage in Stepney which John later held. Their name is supposedly the origin of the placename Bethnal Green https:
reenfeoffed the said John son of Henry, and Maud his wife jointly of the said manor, so that after the death of her husband the manor should remain to the said Maud for her life, and after her death revert to the heirs of the said John". John d. 1291 isThe Fine Rolls have several entries about them, and apparently indicate that "Alice" was an Aline. https://archive.org/details/calendaroffinero01lond/page/26/mode/2up?q=bathonia
Foss calls her "Aliva", and names John's father as Henry de Bathonia, a judge, but he has two generations of Johns between Aliva and Joan de Bohun. https://archive.org/details/judgesenglandwi00fossgoog/page/226/mode/2up
In fact the IPM of John in 1291 shows that there were several Johns. "Pincebeck. The manor (extent given), whereof John son of Henry de Bathonia enfeoffed John son of John de Bathonia, sometime rector of the church of Gerbodesham, who afterwards
one Galfrid of this name had a son named William and a sister Roesia who married Alexander de Limesi. https://archive.org/details/cartulariummonasteriisanctijohannisb1John son of John the rector may be an older relative?
What I am still not sure about is whether Eleanor's mother was a Muscegros.The "Amberley" family is more typically Aumbly or Ambly it seems. Using the typical endings of the time -y or -ye or -ie or -i gets more hits for Galfrid and his brother William. It seems from the chartulary of Saint John the baptist in Colchester that
And now that we can trace the name more easily I see that Chris Phillips posted something about this exact question in 2003. He apparently found another record which names the Muscegros wife of Geoffrey d'Amblie as Isabella and shows that she diedaround 1252. Here is Douglas Richardson's reply: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/hxgH_kZWUlI/m/jzHfKWTVJBgJ
FWIW I understand that Norton in Essex was not land from her Muscegros family, but rather part of the Auberville/Amblie inheritance. So was Isabella the mother of Geoffrey's heiress Eleanor? Still not sure. Interesting that Geoffrey married hisMuscegros wife in 1245 and she was dead in 1252. Geoffrey's daughter Eleanor was already married to a first husband John Luvel in 1257 according to Farrer. If Eleanor was born after 1245 could she be married and receiving a grant of free warren in 1257?
I could not open the Google Books link to the Wiltshire IPM but maybe this is the same work? https://archive.org/details/indexlibrary372brit/page/184/mode/2up
A more complete transcription of the IPM is on British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol2/pp486-498
I found that in old books about London history John de Bathonia's mother was supposedly named Alice, and she died in 1274, seized of a messuage in Stepney which John later held. Their name is supposedly the origin of the placename Bethnal Green https://ia801609.us.archive.org/28/items/municipalparksga00sexbrich/municipalparksga00sexbrich.pdf
The Fine Rolls have several entries about them, and apparently indicate that "Alice" was an Aline. https://archive.org/details/calendaroffinero01lond/page/26/mode/2up?q=bathonia
Foss calls her "Aliva", and names John's father as Henry de Bathonia, a judge, but he has two generations of Johns between Aliva and Joan de Bohun. https://archive.org/details/judgesenglandwi00fossgoog/page/226/mode/2up
In fact the IPM of John in 1291 shows that there were several Johns. "Pincebeck. The manor (extent given), whereof John son of Henry de Bathonia enfeoffed John son of John de Bathonia, sometime rector of the church of Gerbodesham, who afterwardsreenfeoffed the said John son of Henry, and Maud his wife jointly of the said manor, so that after the death of her husband the manor should remain to the said Maud for her life, and after her death revert to the heirs of the said John". John d. 1291 is
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 6:56:22 AM UTC+1, taf wrote:impression that it might be quite a different placename. I am keeping an open mind about the origin of the byname.
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 8:47:19 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
I notice that Robert Muscegros d.1254 had a daughter who is not often discussed. She marred Geoffrey de Amberley. Wikitree cites Richardson for this spelling, who cites Paget, who cites the Close Rolls where his byname is Ambely without an "r".
There is an Amberleye, co. Heref., mentioned in the inquisition of Master Alexander le Seculare, 31 Hen. III.
tafThat's one possibility. OTOH I am wondering if any of the primary records have a spelling with an "r". The Close Rolls record seems to be the closest one to Amberley (at least in transcription), but some of the other spellings I have seen give the
And now that we can trace the name more easily I see that Chris Phillips posted something about this exact question in 2003. He apparently found another record which names the Muscegros wife of Geoffrey d'Amblie as Isabella and shows that she diedaround 1252. Here is Douglas Richardson's reply: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/hxgH_kZWUlI/m/jzHfKWTVJBgJ
FWIW I understand that Norton in Essex was not land from her Muscegros family, but rather part of the Auberville/Amblie inheritance. So was Isabella the mother of Geoffrey's heiress Eleanor? Still not sure. Interesting that Geoffrey married hisMuscegros wife in 1245 and she was dead in 1252. Geoffrey's daughter Eleanor was already married to a first husband John Luvel in 1257 according to Farrer. If Eleanor was born after 1245 could she be married and receiving a grant of free warren in 1257?
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 8:46:38 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:around 1252. Here is Douglas Richardson's reply: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/hxgH_kZWUlI/m/jzHfKWTVJBgJ
And now that we can trace the name more easily I see that Chris Phillips posted something about this exact question in 2003. He apparently found another record which names the Muscegros wife of Geoffrey d'Amblie as Isabella and shows that she died
Muscegros wife in 1245 and she was dead in 1252. Geoffrey's daughter Eleanor was already married to a first husband John Luvel in 1257 according to Farrer. If Eleanor was born after 1245 could she be married and receiving a grant of free warren in 1257?FWIW I understand that Norton in Essex was not land from her Muscegros family, but rather part of the Auberville/Amblie inheritance. So was Isabella the mother of Geoffrey's heiress Eleanor? Still not sure. Interesting that Geoffrey married his
. . . and yet . . . (from Close Rolls, Henry III, vol. 8, p. 237)
"1255. Pro Mabilla Daumbley - Rex , ad instanciam Mabille de Aumbely , filie Roberti de Muscegros , qui diu regi servivit , perdonavit Ade de Eswell ' . . . ,"
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/586030/?offset=0#page=244&viewer=picture&o=&n=0&q=
(note that this entry concludes with "Per Henricum de Bathon" - perhaps Henry de Bathonia)
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 10:17:08 PM UTC+1, taf wrote:plenam seisinam habere faciat de custodia terre que fuit Radulfi de Mutton' in Ingerstrent, Grettewich' et in Rowell' quam ipse Herveus eidem Mabille reliquid (sic) in ultima voluntate sua. Teste ut supra.
. . . and yet . . . (from Close Rolls, Henry III, vol. 8, p. 237)Strange. The places Elmeset and Somersham are also clearly Ambley lands. Bathon is definitely a version of the other surname.
"1255. Pro Mabilla Daumbley - Rex , ad instanciam Mabille de Aumbely , filie Roberti de Muscegros , qui diu regi servivit , perdonavit Ade de Eswell ' . . . ,"
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/586030/?offset=0#page=244&viewer=picture&o=&n=0&q=
(note that this entry concludes with "Per Henricum de Bathon" - perhaps Henry de Bathonia)
Mabel is supposed to be the daughter who married Robert de Lisle. I also notice this one in April 1242: Pro Mabilla filia Roberti de Mucegros.—Mandatum est vicecomiti Stafford' quod Mabille filie Roberti de Mucegros que fuit uxor Hervei de Stafford'
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 2:43:27 PM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:plenam seisinam habere faciat de custodia terre que fuit Radulfi de Mutton' in Ingerstrent, Grettewich' et in Rowell' quam ipse Herveus eidem Mabille reliquid (sic) in ultima voluntate sua. Teste ut supra.
On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 10:17:08 PM UTC+1, taf wrote:
. . . and yet . . . (from Close Rolls, Henry III, vol. 8, p. 237)Strange. The places Elmeset and Somersham are also clearly Ambley lands. Bathon is definitely a version of the other surname.
"1255. Pro Mabilla Daumbley - Rex , ad instanciam Mabille de Aumbely , filie Roberti de Muscegros , qui diu regi servivit , perdonavit Ade de Eswell ' . . . ,"
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/586030/?offset=0#page=244&viewer=picture&o=&n=0&q=
(note that this entry concludes with "Per Henricum de Bathon" - perhaps Henry de Bathonia)
Mabel is supposed to be the daughter who married Robert de Lisle. I also notice this one in April 1242: Pro Mabilla filia Roberti de Mucegros.—Mandatum est vicecomiti Stafford' quod Mabille filie Roberti de Mucegros que fuit uxor Hervei de Stafford'
Unless some sort of editorial or scribal error was made, there are two options here that come to mind. First, this Mabel is of a different generation of the Mucegros family (daughter of an earlier Robert). I note that Richardson posits such a two-Mabelscenario though he was trying to rationalize a different set of conflicts. For example, she could have, as a widow, become Geoffrey de Ambely's step-mother. Another possibility is that she was Isabella's sister, and married successively some other Ambely
taf
(Is it necessary to propose multiple marriages between the same families, and multiple people with the same name?)
On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 2:04:23 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:the monk from Oakham:
(Is it necessary to propose multiple marriages between the same families, and multiple people with the same name?)No. I somehow got it into my head that we had Isabella documented as Geoffrey's Muscegros wife. That would all but mandate a multiple-intermarriage scenario due to the implications of affinity, but without it I think we have to follow the dictate of
Mabel, daughter of Robert de Muscegros married an Amblye; her contemporary Geoffrey d'Amblye married a daughter of Robert de Muscegros. No reason to see these as distinct couples.
taf
On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 9:51:29 PM UTC+1, taf wrote:the monk from Oakham:
On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 2:04:23 AM UTC-8, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
(Is it necessary to propose multiple marriages between the same families, and multiple people with the same name?)No. I somehow got it into my head that we had Isabella documented as Geoffrey's Muscegros wife. That would all but mandate a multiple-intermarriage scenario due to the implications of affinity, but without it I think we have to follow the dictate of
Mabel, daughter of Robert de Muscegros married an Amblye; her contemporary Geoffrey d'Amblye married a daughter of Robert de Muscegros. No reason to see these as distinct couples.
What do you think about the surname switching back to Daumbley in 1255 after Mabel married a Lisle?
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 297 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 01:47:42 |
| Calls: | 6,666 |
| Calls today: | 4 |
| Files: | 12,212 |
| Messages: | 5,335,487 |