• Marriages of Eustace II, count of Boulogne

    From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 9 17:02:55 2023
    The old debate about the "incestuous" marriage for which Eustace was excommunicated in October 1049 has not had an airing here for at least
    some years now.

    As far as is known his first marriage was to Godgifu (aka Goda),
    daughter of the English king Æthelred II by Emma of Normandy, and widow
    of count Drogo of Mantes & Vexin who died in 1035 (by whom she had
    sons). There is no evidence that Eustace had any offspring by Godgifu,
    although it has been unconvincingly speculated that they had a daughter
    and even more implausibly that an illegitimate son of Eustace (Geoffrey
    of Carshalton) was theirs together. Godgifu was evidently born by ca
    1012 and may have been older than Eustace. It is not known when she died.

    His other explicitly-documented wife was the Blessed Ida (died 13 April
    1113), daughter of Godfrey II the Bearded of Bouillon, duke of Upper
    Lorraine, by a lady named Uoda (aka Doda) who possibly belonged to the
    comital family of Toul. Ida is believed to have been born ca 1040 though
    this, like the origin of her mother, is not certain.

    On the last day of the council of Reims, 5 October 1049, Pope Leo IX excommunicated two counts, named Enguerrand ("Angilrai" in the sole
    account of this) and Eustace, over marriages within forbidden degrees
    ("propter incestum"). At the same time the pope also forbade Balduin V
    of Flanders from marrying his daughter (Mathilda) to William of Normandy
    and the latter from accepting her as his wife.

    Historians have generally assumed that one of the consanguineous unions
    causing trouble in October 1049 involved Eustace II of Boulogne, but
    have been divided over whether it was his earlier marriage to Godgifu or
    a recent one to Ida. The possibility that it was to another lady - whose
    name is unrecorded - in an interval between these two, and that Eustace complied with the papal directive by repudiating her soon after October
    1049, is not usually taken into account. His excommunication certainly
    did not last through his marriage to Ida, who outlived him by around 20
    years, since he was later threatened with the same sanction over a
    property dispute.

    The other count excommunicated in 1049 was almost certainly Enguerrand
    II of Ponthieu (killed 1053), who had married William of Normandy's
    sister Adeliza, countess of Aumale. She subsequently (as a widow or
    divorcee) married Eustace of Boulogne's brother Lambert, count of Lens,
    and later Odo III of Blois, count of Champagne.

    Occasionally it has been suggested that the Eustace named in October
    1049 was not the count of Boulogne but rather a namesake count of
    Guînes. However, this is problematic because it relies on the
    late-12th/early 13th-century chronicle written by Lambert of Ardres, a
    very shonky historian, where Eustace of Guînes is represented as living
    in high honour after the mid-11th century but also as having grossly
    bullied the heiress of a vassal before March 1004 and as having married
    the daughter of a chamberlain of Flanders well before such an office is documented.

    Accepting that Eustace II of Boulogne was the count who needed a drastic
    papal measure to bring an end to an illicit marriage in 1049, the
    possibility of a short-lived union with an unknown lady between Godgifu
    and Ida seems to me the most likely explanation.

    Eustace visited England in September 1051, when he was mentioned in the Worcester (D) version of the Anglo-Saxon chronicle as having married the
    sister of Edward the Confessor, see folio 73r here https://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_tiberius_b_iv_f073r: "com eustatius up æt doferan se hæfde eadƿardes cẏnges sƿeostor to ƿife" (Eustace arrived at Dover who had King Edward's sister as wife). The
    preterite verb "hæfde" suggests that the marriage was over by that time
    - or at any rate by the time of writing. This information was later
    repeated in the Latin chronicle ascribed to John of Worcester (formerly
    to Florence of Worcester), see p. 336 here https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/93b83416-7972-40d7-9789-18f54e17ae25/surfaces/621ea924-0e11-4807-ba2c-4f3ca849dbac/:
    "bononiensis comes Eustatius [senior] qui sororem EADWARDI regis Godam
    nomine in coniugium habuerat paucis doruuerniam applicuit nauibus"
    (Eustace [the elder] count of Boulogne who had the sister of King Edward
    in marriage arrived at Canterbury with a few ships), where the verb
    "habuerat" is pluperfect also suggesting the marriage was understood to
    be over in contrast to "applicuit" in the perfect tense. It is not very credible that the saintly Edward would have shown the reported favour to
    his sister's ex-husband or widower in 1051 if Eustace had defied the
    pope to the point of being excommunicated over the marriage in 1049.

    It is even less credible that Ida of Lorraine would have been the
    partner in an incestuous union causing so much trouble with the pope.
    She was the child of parents whose marriage had taken place before June
    1040, when her mother's donation through her husband to
    Sainte-Marie-Madeleine church at Verdun was confirmed along with gifts
    by others presumably made over a period of several years beforehand.
    According to her Vita written in the early 1130s Ida had an elder
    brother and was thoroughly educated with a glowing reputation for her
    manners, conduct and beauty before Eustace sent emissaries to ask for
    her hand in marriage. After consultation she was handed over by her
    "parentes" and taken to Boulogne for her wedding. If this means her
    mother was still living it must have taken place by 1053, although the
    term "parentes" could have covered her father (who died in 1069) and step-mother (married to him in April 1054). In any event, Ida's eldest
    son was probably born in the late 1050s.

    The year 1057 often given for Eustace's marriage to Ida is specious.
    This comes from a forced interpretation by Jacques Malbrancq in the 17th century of an inscription in verse that had disappeared before his time
    from the collegiate church of Notre-Dame at Lens, stating that canons
    had been established there "Anno milleno ter deno bis minus uno". The
    plain interpretation of this is the year 1000+(3x10)-(1x2) = 1028, but Malbrancq took it to mean 1000+((3x10)x2)-1 = 1059. He thought that Ida
    had instituted the canons two years after marrying Eustace, but he
    overlooked their charter dated 1070 stating that this had been done by
    their predecessors, i.e. by his father Eustace I and his mother Mathilde
    of Louvain.

    Ida enjoyed a very high reputation for her pious life as Eustace's wife.
    She had a long friendship with St Anselm, who would hardly have praised
    her as extravagantly as he did in letters to her if her marriage had
    been the cause of her husband's excommunication. This sort of
    contretemps is never mentioned in the voluminous documentation of her
    three famous sons, Eustace III of Boulogne, Godfrey of Bouillon the
    great hero of the first crusade and Balduin I, king of Jerusalem. She is
    often called St Ida, but this is a slight exaggeration as she is
    officially recognised only as (informally) beatified. Her commemoration
    on 13 April (formerly on 14 April in some places) is noted as of local
    status, especially in Boulogne and Rouen. She died as a resident of her
    own foundation, Notre-Dame-la-Capelle abbey at Les Attaques in the Pas
    de Calais, and was initially buried (according to her own premonition)
    in Saint-Michel priory at Le Wast. In 1669 her remains were taken to
    Paris, with a rib sent back to Le Wast, and after being kept safe by a
    nun through the Revolution her relics went to Sainte-Trinité abbey (La
    Joie Saint Benoît) at Bayeux in 1808, where she is now venerated. None
    of this is at all likely to have come about for a woman whose marriage
    was ever considered illicit.

    Peter Stewart

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Peter Stewart on Thu Feb 9 17:31:13 2023
    On 09-Feb-23 5:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Ida enjoyed a very high reputation for her pious life as Eustace's wife.
    She had a long friendship with St Anselm, who would hardly have praised
    her as extravagantly as he did in letters to her if her marriage had
    been the cause of her husband's excommunication. This sort of
    contretemps is never mentioned in the voluminous documentation of her
    three famous sons, Eustace III of Boulogne, Godfrey of Bouillon the
    great hero of the first crusade and Balduin I, king of Jerusalem. She is often called St Ida, but this is a slight exaggeration as she is
    officially recognised only as (informally) beatified. Her commemoration
    on 13 April (formerly on 14 April in some places) is noted as of local status, especially in Boulogne and Rouen.

    I have no idea why I typed Rouen, when I meant Bayeux.

    By the way, the closest relationship that can be traced (although not
    100% definite) between Eustace and Godgifu is as 4th cousins twice
    removed in descent from Alfred the Great. The closest that can be
    documented between Eustace and Ida is as 5th cousins once removed in
    descent from Louis the Stammerer. Neither of these connections is very
    likely to have scandalised Pope Leo IX.

    Peter Stewart


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Hans Vogels@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 8 23:54:35 2023
    Op donderdag 9 februari 2023 om 07:31:18 UTC+1 schreef pss...@optusnet.com.au:
    On 09-Feb-23 5:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Ida enjoyed a very high reputation for her pious life as Eustace's wife. She had a long friendship with St Anselm, who would hardly have praised
    her as extravagantly as he did in letters to her if her marriage had
    been the cause of her husband's excommunication. This sort of
    contretemps is never mentioned in the voluminous documentation of her
    three famous sons, Eustace III of Boulogne, Godfrey of Bouillon the
    great hero of the first crusade and Balduin I, king of Jerusalem. She is often called St Ida, but this is a slight exaggeration as she is
    officially recognised only as (informally) beatified. Her commemoration
    on 13 April (formerly on 14 April in some places) is noted as of local status, especially in Boulogne and Rouen.
    I have no idea why I typed Rouen, when I meant Bayeux.

    By the way, the closest relationship that can be traced (although not
    100% definite) between Eustace and Godgifu is as 4th cousins twice
    removed in descent from Alfred the Great. The closest that can be
    documented between Eustace and Ida is as 5th cousins once removed in
    descent from Louis the Stammerer. Neither of these connections is very
    likely to have scandalised Pope Leo IX.
    Peter Stewart


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com

    Could this (hypothetical) second wife not be the mother of the illegitimate son Geoffrey?
    I have read somewhere (counts of Namour?) that children born from a "incestuous" marriage (be it in the 4th degree) could be barred from succession because of the blemish of their birth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Hans Vogels on Thu Feb 9 20:03:09 2023
    On 09-Feb-23 6:54 PM, Hans Vogels wrote:
    Op donderdag 9 februari 2023 om 07:31:18 UTC+1 schreef pss...@optusnet.com.au:
    On 09-Feb-23 5:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Ida enjoyed a very high reputation for her pious life as Eustace's wife. >>> She had a long friendship with St Anselm, who would hardly have praised
    her as extravagantly as he did in letters to her if her marriage had
    been the cause of her husband's excommunication. This sort of
    contretemps is never mentioned in the voluminous documentation of her
    three famous sons, Eustace III of Boulogne, Godfrey of Bouillon the
    great hero of the first crusade and Balduin I, king of Jerusalem. She is >>> often called St Ida, but this is a slight exaggeration as she is
    officially recognised only as (informally) beatified. Her commemoration
    on 13 April (formerly on 14 April in some places) is noted as of local
    status, especially in Boulogne and Rouen.
    I have no idea why I typed Rouen, when I meant Bayeux.

    By the way, the closest relationship that can be traced (although not
    100% definite) between Eustace and Godgifu is as 4th cousins twice
    removed in descent from Alfred the Great. The closest that can be
    documented between Eustace and Ida is as 5th cousins once removed in
    descent from Louis the Stammerer. Neither of these connections is very
    likely to have scandalised Pope Leo IX.
    Peter Stewart


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    Could this (hypothetical) second wife not be the mother of the illegitimate son Geoffrey?
    I have read somewhere (counts of Namour?) that children born from a "incestuous" marriage (be it in the 4th degree) could be barred from succession because of the blemish of their birth.

    Alan Murray thought that Geoffrey was the son of Eustace and Godgifu on
    this basis, but it seems highly implausible to me that a first son of
    Eustace would have been disbarred from inheriting from either his father
    or his mother (anyway in the case of Godgifu, whose property in England remained with Eustace) because they were separated for consanguinity.

    It was known that Emperor Henry III and his second wife Agnes of Poitou, married in 1043, were third cousins by descent from Gerberga of Saxony
    and fourth cousins once removed by descent from Gerberga's father Henry
    the Fowler - yet their son Henry IV, born in 1050, became German king
    before he was 3 years old and later emperor. With this glaring precedent
    it would have been invidious, to say the least, for Rome to try imposing illegitimacy on a son of Eustace. There were many other heirs from
    parents related in forbidden degrees, whether separated or not, in the
    11th century.

    It is also very implausible to me that Eustace would have named his
    first son Geoffrey if the boy had been born to a wife he resisted
    divorcing until excommunicated. Although Eustace had a brother of this
    name, the latter was a cleric and there had never been a count of
    Boulogne of that name. The first son born to Ida was named Eustace like
    his father and paternal grandfather, the second son was named Godfrey
    after his maternal grandfather and the third son Balduin like his
    (presumed) paternal great-grandfather.

    Geoffrey of Carshalton named his son William (despite the child's
    maternal grandfather being also a Geoffrey), and William's son & heir
    was named Faramus. This pattern of extraneous names does not suggest
    nostalgia for a denied paternal heritage.

    Peter Stewart

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From donna.hartley.france@gmail.com@21:1/5 to pss...@optusnet.com.au on Thu Feb 9 05:58:12 2023
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 4:03:12 AM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
    On 09-Feb-23 6:54 PM, Hans Vogels wrote:
    Op donderdag 9 februari 2023 om 07:31:18 UTC+1 schreef pss...@optusnet.com.au:
    On 09-Feb-23 5:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Does this mean that the parentage of Geoffrey of Carshalton is unknown?? Or is he still considered to be an illegitimate son of Eustace II of Boulogne??

    Donna Hartley

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to donna.hart...@gmail.com on Thu Feb 9 11:06:44 2023
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:58:15 AM UTC-8, donna.hart...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 4:03:12 AM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
    On 09-Feb-23 6:54 PM, Hans Vogels wrote:
    Op donderdag 9 februari 2023 om 07:31:18 UTC+1 schreef pss...@optusnet.com.au:
    On 09-Feb-23 5:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
    Does this mean that the parentage of Geoffrey of Carshalton is unknown?? Or is he still considered to be an illegitimate son of Eustace II of Boulogne??


    Domesday Book explicitly refers to him as 'son of count Eustace', and his descendants used the Boulogne toponymic. That makes for a strong case for his paternity as son of Eustace II. He is commonly presumed to have been illegitimate, because the
    children of Eustace and Ida are well-documented and he is never named among them. However, historians being historians, other placements have been suggested: like that he was eldest son of Eustace and his wife Godgifu (or by extension, a divorced wife
    who was not Godgifu) illegitimated by the annulment as already discussed here as unlikely, or that he was identical to Ida's son Godfrey based on a flawed argument from onomastic etymology but flying in the face of what was written about Godfrey.

    taf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to donna.hart...@gmail.com on Fri Feb 10 09:09:30 2023
    On 10-Feb-23 12:58 AM, donna.hart...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 4:03:12 AM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
    On 09-Feb-23 6:54 PM, Hans Vogels wrote:
    Op donderdag 9 februari 2023 om 07:31:18 UTC+1 schreef pss...@optusnet.com.au:
    On 09-Feb-23 5:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Does this mean that the parentage of Geoffrey of Carshalton is unknown?? Or is he still considered to be an illegitimate son of Eustace II of Boulogne??

    Geoffrey was certainly an illegitimate son of Eustace - in the first
    posting of this thread I referred to him as "an illegitimate son of
    Eustace (Geoffrey of Carshalton)".

    Beyond the record in Domesday book, as Todd posted, proof is given also
    in a charter by William the Conqueror of the late-1070s/early-1080s
    confirming Geoffrey's gift on behalf of his wife Beatrice of three hides
    (one at Balham, two at Walton near Morden, neighbouring Carshalton) to Westminster abbey: "tres hidas quas Gaufridus filius comitis Eustachii
    pro Beatrice uxore sua ibidem libere donavit annuente Gaufrido de Magna
    villa".

    Geoffrey's grandson Faramus of Tingry, castellan of Dover (where
    Eustace's travelling entourage caused mayhem in 1071) specified the relationships in a charter for Oakburn priory, witnessed by his brothers Eustace and Simon: "Faramus filius Willelmi Boloniæ ... Gaufridus filius comitis Eustacii de Bolonia, avus meus, et Willelmus de Bolonia, filius
    ipsius, pater meus ... hujus concessionis meæ fuerunt concessores, et
    testes fratres mei, Eustacius, et Simon.". In the earliest extant pipe
    roll he is called "Faramus filius Willelmi de Bolonia".

    The fatuous identification of Geoffrey with his paternal half-brother
    Godfrey de Bouillon that was unfortunately repeated twice by the editors
    (who should have known better) in the first volume of *Regesta Regum Anglo-Normannorum*, and followed by the editors of *Westminster Abbey
    Charters* (1988), is undoubtedly false - indeed preposterous.

    Peter Stewart




    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Peter Stewart on Fri Feb 10 09:11:23 2023
    On 10-Feb-23 9:09 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Geoffrey's grandson Faramus of Tingry, castellan of Dover (where
    Eustace's travelling entourage caused mayhem in 1071)

    Apologies, 1051 not 1071. Morning fingers.

    Peter Stewart


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From donna.hartley.france@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Peter Stewart on Fri Feb 10 04:00:09 2023
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:11:26 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
    On 10-Feb-23 9:09 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Geoffrey's grandson Faramus of Tingry, castellan of Dover (where
    Eustace's travelling entourage caused mayhem in 1071)
    Apologies, 1051 not 1071. Morning fingers.
    Peter Stewart


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From donna.hartley.france@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Peter Stewart on Fri Feb 10 04:02:51 2023
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:11:26 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
    On 10-Feb-23 9:09 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Thanks taf and Peter for the clarification.

    Also a shout out to Peter for introducing me (an American) to the word shonky, which he used in a post yesterday. I thought this was a typo but no, it's a real word. And I can see that it will be an eminently useful addition to my vocabulary.

    Donna Hartley

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to donna.hart...@gmail.com on Sat Feb 11 08:04:01 2023
    On 10-Feb-23 11:02 PM, donna.hart...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:11:26 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
    On 10-Feb-23 9:09 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Thanks taf and Peter for the clarification.

    Also a shout out to Peter for introducing me (an American) to the word shonky, which he used in a post yesterday. I thought this was a typo but no, it's a real word. And I can see that it will be an eminently useful addition to my vocabulary.

    It was originally an Australian term, Donna, but one of our useful
    exports. As an American, with many shonky operators in your country's
    public life, you may have as much use for it as my compatriots always have.

    Peter Stewart


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Peter Stewart on Sat Feb 11 09:13:44 2023
    On 09-Feb-23 5:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

    Eustace visited England in September 1051, when he was mentioned in the Worcester (D) version of the Anglo-Saxon chronicle as having married the sister of Edward the Confessor, see folio 73r here https://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_tiberius_b_iv_f073r: "com eustatius up æt doferan se hæfde eadƿardes cẏnges sƿeostor to ƿife" (Eustace arrived at Dover who had King Edward's sister as wife). The preterite verb "hæfde"
    suggests that the marriage was over by that time - or at any rate by the time of writing. This information was later repeated in the Latin chronicle ascribed to John of Worcester (formerly to Florence of Worcester), see p. 336 here
    https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/93b83416-7972-40d7-9789-18f54e17ae25/surfaces/621ea924-0e11-4807-ba2c-4f3ca849dbac/: "bononiensis comes Eustatius [senior] qui sororem EADWARDI regis Godam nomine in coniugium habuerat paucis doruuerniam
    applicuit nauibus" (Eustace [the elder] count of Boulogne who had the sister of King Edward in marriage arrived at Canterbury with a few ships), where the verb "habuerat" is pluperfect also suggesting the marriage was understood to be over in contrast to
    "applicuit" in the perfect tense.

    I should have noted that this distinction of tenses is not clear in the Anglo-Saxon chronicle since - unlike the perfect "applicuit" (arrived or landed) contrasting with the pluperfect "habuerat" (had) in Latin -
    "com" (arrived) and "hæfde" (had) are both preterite.

    These two chronicles were written at Worcester: this part of the Latin chronicle was apparently compiled in mid-1101, and the unknown scribe
    may have expressed his understanding of the earlier Anglo-Saxon one (or
    of a different source common to both) in implying that the marriage was
    no longer current when Eustace visited England in September 1051.

    Peter Stewart


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)