Roger de Mandeville, of Ireland, was one of the so-called 'competitors' for the Scottish crown, but the narrative-pedigree accompanying his claim is absurd (claiming that King WIlliam the Lion was succeeded by his brother, and placing Roger 5generations down from the king, through a daughter who did not marry until after William's death; this 5-gen descent is in stark contrast to another apparently-fraudulent petition at the same time, from someone claiming to be William's own son). Is
For those unfamiliar, the claim is as follows:
William the Lion had an illegitimate daughter
Aufrica escaped her murderous uncle and fled to Ireland, m. William de Say William de Say
Aufrica de Say m. Robert de Wardone
Agatha de Wardone m. Mandeville
Roger de Mandeville
I was just looking through some Irish calendars and found several instances of Say and Mandeville appearing one after the other in the 13th century, but not with Wardone, and not anyone with these given names.
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 8:33:30 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:generations down from the king, through a daughter who did not marry until after William's death; this 5-gen descent is in stark contrast to another apparently-fraudulent petition at the same time, from someone claiming to be William's own son). Is
Roger de Mandeville, of Ireland, was one of the so-called 'competitors' for the Scottish crown, but the narrative-pedigree accompanying his claim is absurd (claiming that King WIlliam the Lion was succeeded by his brother, and placing Roger 5
For those unfamiliar, the claim is as follows:
William the Lion had an illegitimate daughter
Aufrica escaped her murderous uncle and fled to Ireland, m. William de Say William de Say
Aufrica de Say m. Robert de Wardone
Agatha de Wardone m. Mandeville
Roger de Mandeville
I was just looking through some Irish calendars and found several instances of Say and Mandeville appearing one after the other in the 13th century, but not with Wardone, and not anyone with these given names.
And a followup warning in case anyone tries to pursue this via Google. They substituted "de Warzone" for "de Wardone" every time I tweaked the parameters.
taf
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:39:58 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:generations down from the king, through a daughter who did not marry until after William's death; this 5-gen descent is in stark contrast to another apparently-fraudulent petition at the same time, from someone claiming to be William's own son). Is
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 8:33:30 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
Roger de Mandeville, of Ireland, was one of the so-called 'competitors' for the Scottish crown, but the narrative-pedigree accompanying his claim is absurd (claiming that King WIlliam the Lion was succeeded by his brother, and placing Roger 5
For those unfamiliar, the claim is as follows:
William the Lion had an illegitimate daughter
Aufrica escaped her murderous uncle and fled to Ireland, m. William de Say
William de Say
Aufrica de Say m. Robert de Wardone
Agatha de Wardone m. Mandeville
Roger de Mandeville
I was just looking through some Irish calendars and found several instances of Say and Mandeville appearing one after the other in the 13th century, but not with Wardone, and not anyone with these given names.
And a followup warning in case anyone tries to pursue this via Google. They substituted "de Warzone" for "de Wardone" every time I tweaked the parameters.
tafThis genealogical chart says "the descents are as claimed" -- I suppose that means they're right [?].
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kingship_of_the_Scots_842_1292/U6MxEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wardone+mandeville&pg=PA348&printsec=frontcover
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:08:51 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:generations down from the king, through a daughter who did not marry until after William's death; this 5-gen descent is in stark contrast to another apparently-fraudulent petition at the same time, from someone claiming to be William's own son). Is
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:39:58 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 8:33:30 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
Roger de Mandeville, of Ireland, was one of the so-called 'competitors' for the Scottish crown, but the narrative-pedigree accompanying his claim is absurd (claiming that King WIlliam the Lion was succeeded by his brother, and placing Roger 5
For those unfamiliar, the claim is as follows:
William the Lion had an illegitimate daughter
Aufrica escaped her murderous uncle and fled to Ireland, m. William de Say
William de Say
Aufrica de Say m. Robert de Wardone
Agatha de Wardone m. Mandeville
Roger de Mandeville
I was just looking through some Irish calendars and found several instances of Say and Mandeville appearing one after the other in the 13th century, but not with Wardone, and not anyone with these given names.
And a followup warning in case anyone tries to pursue this via Google. They substituted "de Warzone" for "de Wardone" every time I tweaked the parameters.
tafThis genealogical chart says "the descents are as claimed" -- I suppose that means they're right [?].
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kingship_of_the_Scots_842_1292/U6MxEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wardone+mandeville&pg=PA348&printsec=frontcoverOh, also says "an illegitimate birth is presumed" for some, including Aufrica.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:11:06 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:generations down from the king, through a daughter who did not marry until after William's death; this 5-gen descent is in stark contrast to another apparently-fraudulent petition at the same time, from someone claiming to be William's own son). Is
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:08:51 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:39:58 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 8:33:30 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
Roger de Mandeville, of Ireland, was one of the so-called 'competitors' for the Scottish crown, but the narrative-pedigree accompanying his claim is absurd (claiming that King WIlliam the Lion was succeeded by his brother, and placing Roger 5
For those unfamiliar, the claim is as follows:
William the Lion had an illegitimate daughter
Aufrica escaped her murderous uncle and fled to Ireland, m. William de Say
William de Say
Aufrica de Say m. Robert de Wardone
Agatha de Wardone m. Mandeville
Roger de Mandeville
I was just looking through some Irish calendars and found several instances of Say and Mandeville appearing one after the other in the 13th century, but not with Wardone, and not anyone with these given names.
And a followup warning in case anyone tries to pursue this via Google. They substituted "de Warzone" for "de Wardone" every time I tweaked the parameters.
tafThis genealogical chart says "the descents are as claimed" -- I suppose that means they're right [?].
This 1640 book claims Sir Roger de Mandevile was a descendant of a "younger daughter of Alan Lord of Galloway" ...https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kingship_of_the_Scots_842_1292/U6MxEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wardone+mandeville&pg=PA348&printsec=frontcoverOh, also says "an illegitimate birth is presumed" for some, including Aufrica.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_lyfe_and_acts_of_the_most_famous_and/uj5oAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=roger+mandevile+ireland&pg=PP11&printsec=frontcover
Oh, also says "an illegitimate birth is presumed" for some, including Aufrica.
This genealogical chart says "the descents are as claimed" -- I suppose that means they're right [?].
This 1640 book claims Sir Roger de Mandevile was a descendant of a "younger daughter of Alan Lord of Galloway" ...
"Roger de Mandeville appears to have made his claim as descended from Helen , daughter of Alan of Galloway , and Margaret the daughter of David , Earl of Huntingdon."
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 7:08:51 AM UTC-8, Johnny Brananas wrote:
This genealogical chart says "the descents are as claimed" -- I suppose that means they're right [?].
No it just means that they haven't been 'corrected', that they are shown exactly as was claimed. I don't see that as any indication of accuracy.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 9:37:31 AM UTC-8, Johnny Brananas wrote:
This 1640 book claims Sir Roger de Mandevile was a descendant of a "younger daughter of Alan Lord of Galloway" ...
Too recent to be viewed as reliable direct knowledge; too old to represent reliable scholarship.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 9:46:49 AM UTC-8, Johnny Brananas wrote:documentation, not just generalities about the descent. I have seen a biography of William the Lion that concludes that, unlike the other illegitimate children of William who he took care of with lands and other grants, neither the supposed children
"Roger de Mandeville appears to have made his claim as descended from Helen , daughter of Alan of Galloway , and Margaret the daughter of David , Earl of Huntingdon."
Same as other. Perhaps derived from other.
Again, I am less interested in such generalities summarizing the claim. I am looking for any attempt to address the specifics of the descent, looking for Roger de Mandeville, Robert de Wardone, William de Say and the the two Aufricas in contemporary
Or to put it another way: at what point back of Roger does the authentic genealogy end and the fabrication begin? Is it an authentic descent from an Aufrica, mother of William de Say who was turned into a royal scion, or is the Say connection itselfdubious? For that matter, is Roger de Mandeville an authentic Irish Mandeville, or just a Lambert Simnel type of charlatan (perhaps by proxy, as he was apparently a child put forward by someone wanting to exercise royal control through him)? I am
Once rejecting the alleged paternity of Affrica, Scottish historiography
has little interest in anyone between her (assuming she even existed)
and the uncompetitive claimant Roger.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:25:25 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
Once rejecting the alleged paternity of Affrica, Scottish historiography has little interest in anyone between her (assuming she even existed)Assuming he even existed.
and the uncompetitive claimant Roger.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:25:25 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
Once rejecting the alleged paternity of Affrica, Scottish historiography
has little interest in anyone between her (assuming she even existed)
and the uncompetitive claimant Roger.
Assuming he even existed.
On 25-Jan-23 10:39 AM, taf wrote:
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:25:25 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
Once rejecting the alleged paternity of Affrica, Scottish historiography >> has little interest in anyone between her (assuming she even existed)
and the uncompetitive claimant Roger.
Assuming he even existed.Well, someone would have looked beyond stupid if he didn't exist and yet
won the Scottish throne - I can't see why anyone would have an interest
in making up a phony candidate.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:52:22 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:'Roger de Mandeville' need not have existed - any boy might do. Take a foundling, gIve him an old Anglo-Norman name and invent for him a respectable pedigree, and if by chance he hits the jackpot for you, then the invention becomes historical reality.
On 25-Jan-23 10:39 AM, taf wrote:
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:25:25 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:Well, someone would have looked beyond stupid if he didn't exist and yet
Once rejecting the alleged paternity of Affrica, Scottish historiography >>>> has little interest in anyone between her (assuming she even existed)
and the uncompetitive claimant Roger.
Assuming he even existed.
won the Scottish throne - I can't see why anyone would have an interest
in making up a phony candidate.
Take that up with the people who supported Lambert Simnel - I am not suggesting that there was no human involved, only that 'long lost child-heirs discovered across the sea' don't have to actually be who they are claimed to be. It is in this sense that
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