On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 10:29:14 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 9:03:46 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

The Lydia Banks letter is additional proof, apparently. Is she the Daughter
Liddia in the 1597 will of Caleb Banks given in that link above? Caleb's will mentions "Brother Epps and my sister" and "cousin Mapplesden," and weren't the Fishers (of whose family was Thomasine, wife of John Epps) connected to the Mapplesdens somehow?

Thomazine was daughter of Katherine Maplesden. Waters published the will of George Maplisden, who names his sister Katherine Fisher and her daughter Thomazine Eppes. The Maplesden and Fisher pedigrees in 1619 Kent both show the marriage. Neither shows

Thomazine, although Peter Maplesden is shown marrying Katherine, daughter of John Epse of Ashford. [Thanks to an off-list correspondent for the Waters info!]

https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalglea02byuwate#page/1290/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/visitationofkent00camd#page/156/mode/2up/ [and two pages later]

Was Caleb Banks' wife a Fisher, sister of the wife of John Epps?

Certainly a possibility. Another intermarriage appears in 1633 London, where John Banks married Mary Fisher (sister of Thomazine, and likewise left a legacy by George Maplisden) and had a son Caleb (not the same Caleb). I think Caleb's wife has to be a

Fisher. The will of Robert Allarde refers to "my sister Fisher the elder, my aunt Maplesden and my cousins John, Edward, and Richard Maplesden, her sons George Maplesden the elder, my sister Gouldsmith, my cousin Peter Maplesden, my cousin John Fisher,
my cousin John Eppes and his wife, my cousin Caleb Bancke and his wife and my cousins Katherine and Mary Fisher daughters of the said sister Fisher." This is clearly a Fisher/Maplesden family grouping, and he only names the wives of Epes, known to have
married a Fisher, and of Bankes, who as we have seen calls John Epes his brother and John the younger his cozen. Waters shows Caleb married to Margaret Epes, but I think this is wrong, that she was Margaret Fisher, based on the Allarde will.

Lydia's 1672 letter to Daniel Epps of New England specifically calls him "Coussen," and says..."I very well remember you from a child" ...and "I well remember your family of ye Eppes, for I was brought up with them
from my youth ..." It's a bit of a stretch that the Lydia writing in 1672 was the one named in the 1597 will of Caleb Banks, but not impossible if she was an infant at her father's death.

I am not sure where this Lydia fits in - she could even be related through John Banks and Mary Fisher of the London Visitation, rather than through Caleb's wife.

taf

The ancestry of Daniel1/A Epes will be the subject of an upcoming TAG article. I will try to answer some questions, where I can.

Excellent observation that Lydia Banks tells Daniel1 Epes that she grew up with his family. Note that other letters of Lydia written to William Hathorne (NEHGR 29:112) in the 1640s were from Maidstone, Kent. However, also note in her letter to Daniel
she not only calls him "cousin", but says she is his kinswomen, and thus is stating they are blood-related.

Since Lydia's sister Priscilla is a known, tracking either one of their ancestries works; they were the daughters of John Banks and Mary Fisher (d. Alexander Fisher m. Katherine Maplesden [Peter]). There are intermarriages in the Fisher/Maplesden/Epes/
Banks families, but drawing a pedigree out helps. For example, the Peter Maplesden (George, Peter) who married Katherine Epes (John [a sister of Francis]) was a nephew of Katherine Maplesden who m. Alexander Fisher. His mother Thomasina Fisher (Henry,
Robert, William) who m. 1st George Maplesden was a distant cousin of Alexander Fisher (John, William).

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On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 7:27:39 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 8:24:29 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

Very interesting, Todd. Looking at the Sandes/Sondes/at Sende pedigree right now ... ancestral names in the chart would seem to be Russell, Dod, Guildford, Urrey, de Deane, Cheyney, and Towne.

Maybe someone can do more with this.

From the Visitations alone, I develop the following AT for Thomazin (Fisher) Epes:

1. Thomazin Fisher
2. Alexander Fisher
3. Katherine Maplesden
4. John Fisher
5. Thomazin Bettenham
6. Peter Maplesden
7. Joan Gay
8. William Fisher of Maidstone
9. ( ) Friar
10. William Bettenham
11. Agnes Sandes
12. John Maplesden
13. Anne Miller
14. Thomas Gay, note A.
18. John Friar
20. John Bettenham
21. ( ) Yue
22. William Sandes of Lingfield
23. Elizabeth Towne
24. Thomas Maplesden of Cheveney in Morden (sic)
26. John Miller
40. Stephen Bettenham of Cranbro
41. Helwise Baker
44. Richard Sonds als Sandes of Alfricheston, Sussex
45. Paulina Dene
46. Thomas at Towne, note B
47. Joan Cheyney, note C
48. John Maplesden of Cheveney on Marden (sic)
82. William Baker
88. Richard Sonde
89. Elizabeth Urrey
90. John/Robert Dene of Alfricheston, Sussex, note B
91. Alice Cheyney
92. Thomas at Towne
93. Bennitt (i.e. Benedicta) Detling note D
94. William/Richard Cheyney of Sheppey
96. John Maplesden of Goudhurst
176. Richard Sonde
177. Maude Guldford
178. John Urrey
180. Robert de Dene
181. ( ) Chelwyke
182. Robert Cheney of Manwood, Sussex
186. John Detling
187. Joan de Shelving
192. John Maplesden of Maplesden
352. Robart at Sende als Sande
353. Alice Dod
354. Richard Guldford
362. ( ) Chelwyke of Grane
363. ( ) Podinden
374. John de Shelving
375. ( ) Denne
384. Henry Maplesden of Maplesden in Bennenden
704. Walter at Sende
705. Maude Rushall/Russall
706. Gilbert Dod
750. William Denne note E
751. ( ) Gatton
1408. Adam at Sende
1409. ( ) Saband
1410. Richard Rushall/Russall
1500. William Denne
1502. Giles Gatton
2816. Henry at Sende
2818. Peter Saband
3000. Richard Deane
3001. ( ) Staingarche
6002. Richard Staingarche

Note A. the 1619 Maplesden pedigree says Joan Gay, wife of Peter Maplesden was daughter of Thomas and bore "G. 3 lions Ramp. 2 & 1 between 5 cross crossletts ffichy Ar." This is clearly a variant of the coat described in the 1574 Gay pedigree, "Gules

crusily or, three lions rampant argent", yet the color of the crosses is different. If this is a simple error in the Maplesden pedigree, then this could be the Thomas who heads the Gay pedigree, yet the chronology doesn't really work for this to have
been the case. The Maplesden pedigree Thomas Gay is three generations back from the 1619 informant, while the Gay pedigree's Thomas is 3 generations back from the 1574 informant. This appears to be a different branch of the family.

Note B. Here I follow the 1574 Visitation, which agrees with the account of Thomas Town in History of Parliament. The 1592 Visitation adds another generation, making the Thomas who married Cheyney the grandfather of Elizabeth via another intervening

Thomas. The 1592 Visitation also inserts an extra John Dene between the John who married a Cheyney and Paulina, also named John.

Note C. The 1566 Bedford Cheyney pedigree shows in the first generation John Cheyney of Sheppey having a daughter married to Thomas at Towne. This is too far back to be reliable in detail, but the family clearly retained a memory of this marriage.

Notably, it shows her as sister of Sir William, husband of the daughter of Sallare. Clearly this last is William, husband of Eleanor Salerne. However, HOP shows Thomas Town to have married the daughter of this William, yet the chronology is tight. It
looks like William married immediately before 1405, while his supposed son-in-law is last seen in 1420, and had three daughters. It is possible, but I am wondering if the Bedford pedigree (and the correction to the Kent pedigree that makes her daughter
to Richard, Sir William's true father) isn't the more accurate over HOP.

Note D. Several accounts refer to this marriage, calling Thomas' father-in-law as John Brampton alias Detling. These accounts skip the generation with the Cheyney marriage, making the Brampton/Detling heiress mother of Elizabeth (Towne) Sondes as well

as two other daughters. THi is clearly wrong, as shown by this pedigree:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t6542rp7k;view=1up;seq=381
Benedicta Detling/Brampton would remarry to #40, Stephen Betenham, after the death of Thomas at Towne in 1403. For her see the end of this:
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.015%20-%201883/015-01.pdf
Reference is made here to the will of Benedicta de Betenham: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nnc2.ark:/13960/t33201b1m;view=1up;seq=210

Note E. Berry's Kent Pedigrees shows a William Dene marrying a Gatton heiress, but the father is given a different name, and he had a son, not the daughter and heir given in the visitation, so either this is just coincidence or there is some flaw in

the pedigree at this point.

taf

I have information from unpublished documents obtained from the Kent archives on extending/fixing the pedigree assembled from visitations. For the Cheyne piece, you are already aware of an upcoming TAG article by Nathan Murphy:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/trep5Ej31hs/m/UxFqZ8adBAAJ

However, possibly an interesting piece to look at (and this forum perhaps appropriate?) is to look at the ancestry of Benedicta (Detling/Brampton)(Towne) Bettenham. Her will gives the needed evidence on how to fix published errors (for example, Hasted)
in her next couple of generations, based on the many manors she owned; parsing out which of her ancestors she got them from seems to be straightforward. Of particular note, I believe it can be demonstrated she is a descendant of Ranulf de Broc/Stephen
de Thurnham. Not only supported by following the inheritance of manors, but a Sondes deed of a later manor clearly laid out the de Dene's and Gatton's (ipms went away at the point when Thomas de Dene successfully sued the king and had it released to him,
so it would seem Thomas did this on all his manors). Please let me know if interested.

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On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 9:13:02 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 7:34:12 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

I'm confused about where you found the Allen Epps pedigree since you say it's never been published and _also_ that it's in the 1619 Kent visitation.

A letter from Thomas Duke, Rouge Dragon Pursuivant, of the College of Arms, to a descendant of Francis Epes of Virginia can be seen here and explicitly sources the material to the 1619 Kent Visitation:

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=94174438&PIpi=115259658

I have no explanation as to why this pedigree is not included in either of the published editions of the Visitation. One of them was a serialized compilation that consisted of a mix of visitation, probate and parish register data, is a bit of a muddle

and appears never to have seen completion. The other, though, is a standard format Harleian Society issue based on a copy of the Visitation in the possession of Francis Burke, Somerset Herald, and confirmed against the copy that is BL Harleian MS 1106,
while they also include variations from BL Stowe 618 and BL Harleian 6138. The Epes pedigree simply isn't there. It is unclear if the copies are not independent of each other and that once the Epes pedigree was skipped in the first copy this error was
replicated in the others, if this pedigree was only added to the copy in the college of Arms after the surviving copies were made, whether the Burke copy is missing this pedigree and the editors in confirming it against other copies failed to notice the
presence of the pedigree missing from Burke, if this was a mistake made at the stage of editing the book. (I suppose someone could have forged the letter, but that seems unlikely to me.)

taf

I am not sure if this will answer your question, but I also have a letter for this pedigree from Adam Tuck, Rouge Dragon Pursiovant, College of Arms. He states:

"Between 1530 and 1687, the heralds visited each county roughly once every generation, to oversee
the use of arms, and to record the pedigrees of the gentry. The results were recorded in a series of
manuscript volumes, many of which are now retained by the College of Arms as a significant series
within its official records.

Other contemporary or near-contemporary manuscripts resulting from the visitations are now held
externally by institutions such as the British Library. It is from these manuscripts that most printed
editions of the visitation pedigrees are taken. It is not uncommon to find differences between the
College records and these external manuscripts. The latter have often been amended or extended,
often much later than the visitation itself, and with varying degrees of genealogical accuracy."

So I think he is saying the published visitations are not from the more reliable versions at the College of Arms, and thus there can be differences and omissions.

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On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 12:15:16 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

I note there are two Chancery pleadings involving a Daniel Epps at the start of the century.

Daniel Epps v. Thomas & Elizabeth Footer 2/JasI/E5/65 (trade matters, 1603-1625)

William Anderson v. Daniel Eppes C 2/JasI/A1/3 (accounts, 1603-1625)

Unfortunately, no more details are provided in the Catalogue, so it is even uncertain if this is the London or the Canterbury man, or someone else.

taf

2/JasI/E5/65 :
date is 12 July 1622, "Daniell Epps Citizen and Grocer London", interesting that it involved Edward Hudson, a son-in-law of John Epes Sr. Also of interest is John Epes Sr makes no reference to this daughter/son-in-law in his will, and Dorman's books
clearly identified that they were having children together after John's death.

C 2/JasI/A1/3
date is 1 July 1623, "Daniell Epps of the cittie of London Grocer"

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Great find, taf. So apparently there was a contemporary pedigree showing John Eppes with a son Daniel, even though there is no baptismal record for such a son, nor is a son Daniel found in John's will.

There are baptismal records for Daniel and Edward, sons of John Epes, gentleman. The date for Daniel aligns with when the Daniel Epes of London received his admission freedom in the grocer's company. Edward is of interest since an Edward Epes witnessed
the will of Edmund Reade, father-in-law of Daniel Epes of London.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89066158148&view=1up&seq=89

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On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 2:29:53 PM UTC-5, James Nathan wrote:

Great find, taf. So apparently there was a contemporary pedigree showing John Eppes with a son Daniel, even though there is no baptismal record for such a son, nor is a son Daniel found in John's will.

There are baptismal records for Daniel and Edward, sons of John Epes, gentleman. The date for Daniel aligns with when the Daniel Epes of London received his admission freedom in the grocer's company. Edward is of interest since an Edward Epes witnessed

the will of Edmund Reade, father-in-law of Daniel Epes of London.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89066158148&view=1up&seq=89

Who is the Martha Epes, child, licensed to go beyond seas in 1633?

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogist/Y886AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22martha+epes%22&pg=PA44&printsec=frontcover

The Great Migration entry for Elizabeth (Epes) Chute states she "preceded [in 1635] the rest of her immediate family to New England by a few years, travelling on the same ship with her aunt Elizabeth (Reade) Winthrop ..."

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On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 11:09:11 AM UTC-8, James Nathan wrote:

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 9:13:02 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 7:34:12 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

I'm confused about where you found the Allen Epps pedigree since you say it's never been published and _also_ that it's in the 1619 Kent visitation.

A letter from Thomas Duke, Rouge Dragon Pursuivant, of the College of Arms, to a descendant of Francis Epes of Virginia can be seen here and explicitly sources the material to the 1619 Kent Visitation:

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=94174438&PIpi=115259658

I have no explanation as to why this pedigree is not included in either of the published editions of the Visitation. One of them was a serialized compilation that consisted of a mix of visitation, probate and parish register data, is a bit of a

muddle and appears never to have seen completion. The other, though, is a standard format Harleian Society issue based on a copy of the Visitation in the possession of Francis Burke, Somerset Herald, and confirmed against the copy that is BL Harleian MS
1106, while they also include variations from BL Stowe 618 and BL Harleian 6138. The Epes pedigree simply isn't there. It is unclear if the copies are not independent of each other and that once the Epes pedigree was skipped in the first copy this error
was replicated in the others, if this pedigree was only added to the copy in the college of Arms after the surviving copies were made, whether the Burke copy is missing this pedigree and the editors in confirming it against other copies failed to notice
the presence of the pedigree missing from Burke, if this was a mistake made at the stage of editing the book. (I suppose someone could have forged the letter, but that seems unlikely to me.)

taf

I am not sure if this will answer your question, but I also have a letter for this pedigree from Adam Tuck, Rouge Dragon Pursiovant, College of Arms. He states:

"Between 1530 and 1687, the heralds visited each county roughly once every generation, to oversee
the use of arms, and to record the pedigrees of the gentry. The results were recorded in a series of
manuscript volumes, many of which are now retained by the College of Arms as a significant series
within its official records.

Other contemporary or near-contemporary manuscripts resulting from the visitations are now held
externally by institutions such as the British Library. It is from these manuscripts that most printed
editions of the visitation pedigrees are taken. It is not uncommon to find differences between the
College records and these external manuscripts. The latter have often been amended or extended,
often much later than the visitation itself, and with varying degrees of genealogical accuracy."

So I think he is saying the published visitations are not from the more reliable versions at the College of Arms, and thus there can be differences and omissions.

Yes, that is exactly what he is saying. For those unfamiliar with the process, there were several layers of manuscripts that developed from individual visitations, and that ended up in different hands, and the published visitations can derive from any of
these.

First, the herald carried out the actual visitation, and compiled notes from this visitation and from any ancillary research he might have conducted. He then used these compiled notes to prepare the formal submission to teh College of Arms, but the
original notes remained his personal property.

The formal submission to the College of Arms might then be copied, either for a secondary-related manuscript in the College, or by College heralds or their acquaitances for their own private collections. The latter again were the personal property of the
person who copied it. Such copies were often selective, and likewise often had errors, omissions, or additions, and in particular additions of subsequent generations, of younger branches, or of entire pedigrees compiled outside of the structure of a
formal visitation addressing families not included. These in turn could be copied by acquaintances, with subsequent modification. These external copies eventually entered into the private antiquarian manuscript trade, and over time, most ended up in the
British Library (in particular, but not exclusively, in the Harleian Collection) or the University libraries.

The various Harleian Society publications have drawn from all of these, but mostly from the last category - private copies, one or more steps removed from the original. The early editions were copiled without access to the originals in the College of
Arms, and were often taken from a single manuscript, but the details of their provenance were often left unstated. As they became more sophisticated, the editors would consult multiple independent copies in private hands to come up with the 'best' copy.
They also might consult (but without permission to copy and republish) the original visitation in the College of Arms, or at least obtain from a herald a listing of the pedigrees appearing, so that they could identify and exclude or shunt out of the main
section those pedigrees that had been added later. In annoying cases they often combined pedigrees of the same family from multiple visitations into unified trees, thus obscuring the provenance of the information, or like in the case of Vivian's volumes,
simply used the visitations as a starting point for more elaborate pedigrees going well beyond the original, often with no additional sourcing indicated.

It was only within the past few decades that the College of Arms has begun to allow direct access to allow publication of highly-accurate editions, but the pace of work is so slow that none of us will live long enough to see quality editions of most
original visitations. There is one significant exception to the general pattern of the older volumes coming from copies several steps removed. One of the published Cornwall volumes used as its source the original notes of the herald, from which he
prepared the copy to be submitted to the College. As such, this volume must be considered of the highest quality among those not based on manuscripts held by the College itself.

taf

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On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 3:02:48 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 2:29:53 PM UTC-5, James Nathan wrote:

Great find, taf. So apparently there was a contemporary pedigree showing John Eppes with a son Daniel, even though there is no baptismal record for such a son, nor is a son Daniel found in John's will.

There are baptismal records for Daniel and Edward, sons of John Epes, gentleman. The date for Daniel aligns with when the Daniel Epes of London received his admission freedom in the grocer's company. Edward is of interest since an Edward Epes

witnessed the will of Edmund Reade, father-in-law of Daniel Epes of London.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89066158148&view=1up&seq=89

Who is the Martha Epes, child, licensed to go beyond seas in 1633?

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogist/Y886AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22martha+epes%22&pg=PA44&printsec=frontcover

The Great Migration entry for Elizabeth (Epes) Chute states she "preceded [in 1635] the rest of her immediate family to New England by a few years, travelling on the same ship with her aunt Elizabeth (Reade) Winthrop ..."

_Could_ this possibly be Martha Epes, widow of Daniel (perhaps with a child accompanying?), going to the Netherlands or Low Countries in 1633 (before removing to New England).

Lydia Banks' 1672 letter to (? Epps) mentions "I very well remember you from a child, and when you were in Holland, you and your cousin John Lake, with us ..."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/54PTaKTLJroC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=reade+eppes+lydia+banks&pg=PA116&printsec=frontcover

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_Could_ this possibly be Martha Epes, widow of Daniel (perhaps with a child accompanying?), going to the Netherlands or Low Countries in 1633 (before removing to New England).

Lydia Banks' 1672 letter to (? Epps) mentions "I very well remember you from a child, and when you were in Holland, you and your cousin John Lake, with us ..."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/54PTaKTLJroC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=reade+eppes+lydia+banks&pg=PA116&printsec=frontcover

That was my initial thought, exactly for the reason you highlighted.  Martha did not remarry until about 1637, when in January 1637/8 she had a stillborn child with Samuel Symonds (whose 1st wife died 3 Aug 1636).  That child was missed in
publications, but is evidenced by a letter from Rev Hugh Peter to Gov. John Winthrop (Jr.) on 2 Feb stating "Your sister Symonds is delivered last weeke of a dead child"

However, Daniel1 Epes was born probably in 1623, since he and his sister Elizabeth are mentioned in their grandfather Edmund Reade's will dated 20 Nov 1623.  Daniel1 has several depositions that give him an age range in NE.  
I am not sure if Daniel would begin the education in Holland at 10 years of age (honestly, I really do not know but maybe?). His cousin John Lake was bapt. 1617, and he would seem to have been a good age to begin school though...

Note that the pedigree Waters tried to put together after the Lydia letter, he admitted he was flying blind, and was wrong. Walter Goodwin Davis did the work that was needed to explain all the relationships afterwards.

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For a pedigree of the Banks family, see The Ancestry of Priscilla Baker, which also calls out Lydia's letter:

https://archive.org/details/ancestryofprisci00inappl/page/142/mode/2up

Appleton was unsure of the identity of Caleb Banks' wife, but up above taf notes the correct court case that allows her identity to be determined as a Fisher.

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