While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a goodbit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older reconstruction
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't exactly improved in the meantime - on a quick glance I suppose the nub
of the case is on p. 107 note 153:
"Feuchere argues that Roger (d. 1067) was succeeded by his son Hugh I
(d. c. 1070), who in turn was succeeded by his son Guy I (c. 1070–post 1078) and his brother Hugh II (post 1078–c. 1118). There is no evidence that Roger had a son Hugh; his known sons are Manasses and Robert. I
prefer Haigneré's interpretation that Guy and Hugh who are referred to
in Gregory's letter are Guy of Ponthieu and his brother Hugh. Haigneré's interpretation is based on a 1091 charter of Abbot Jean of St Bertin;
the witnesses include 'Wido comes Pontivensis, frater ejus Hugo comes de Sancto Paulo,' (Haigneré 1886): no. 87."
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
perhaps splitting on Hugh into father and son). As with all such renumbering, that will result in no end of chaos.I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
exactly improved in the meantime - on a quick glance I suppose the nub
of the case is on p. 107 note 153:
"Feuchere argues that Roger (d. 1067) was succeeded by his son Hugh I
(d. c. 1070), who in turn was succeeded by his son Guy I (c. 1070–post
1078) and his brother Hugh II (post 1078–c. 1118). There is no evidence
that Roger had a son Hugh; his known sons are Manasses and Robert. I
prefer Haigneré's interpretation that Guy and Hugh who are referred to
in Gregory's letter are Guy of Ponthieu and his brother Hugh. Haigneré's
interpretation is based on a 1091 charter of Abbot Jean of St Bertin;
the witnesses include 'Wido comes Pontivensis, frater ejus Hugo comes de
Sancto Paulo,' (Haigneré 1886): no. 87."
Thanks. The Haigneré theory is here: https://books.google.com/books?id=OyIKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR52
with the charter text here: https://books.google.com/books?id=DqdhGgigKlgC&pg=PA34
If I am understaning this theory correctly, it is the man historically referred to as Hugh II, now renumbered Hugh I, who is the proposed Ponthieu scion, with Hugh I being a genealogical invention to bridge bridge from Roger to the two brothers (or
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 5:16:57 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
perhaps splitting on Hugh into father and son). As with all such renumbering, that will result in no end of chaos.I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
exactly improved in the meantime - on a quick glance I suppose the nub
of the case is on p. 107 note 153:
"Feuchere argues that Roger (d. 1067) was succeeded by his son Hugh I
(d. c. 1070), who in turn was succeeded by his son Guy I (c. 1070–post
1078) and his brother Hugh II (post 1078–c. 1118). There is no evidence
that Roger had a son Hugh; his known sons are Manasses and Robert. I
prefer Haigneré's interpretation that Guy and Hugh who are referred to
in Gregory's letter are Guy of Ponthieu and his brother Hugh. Haigneré's
interpretation is based on a 1091 charter of Abbot Jean of St Bertin;
the witnesses include 'Wido comes Pontivensis, frater ejus Hugo comes de
Sancto Paulo,' (Haigneré 1886): no. 87."
Thanks. The Haigneré theory is here: https://books.google.com/books?id=OyIKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR52
with the charter text here: https://books.google.com/books?id=DqdhGgigKlgC&pg=PA34
If I am understaning this theory correctly, it is the man historically referred to as Hugh II, now renumbered Hugh I, who is the proposed Ponthieu scion, with Hugh I being a genealogical invention to bridge bridge from Roger to the two brothers (or
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:16:57 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
Does this elaborate on the descent of Eustace I [d1047] from Adalolf of Boulogne [d933]?
On wiki the descent of the counts of Boulogne is thus
Adalolf 918-33 m X
|
Arnulf II 964-72 [the interregnum is due to Arnulf of Flanders seizing Boulogne
for himself apparently after Adalolf was killed by a swineherd]
|
Arnulf III 972-90
|
Baldwin 990-c.1027 m Adelina of Holland
|
Eustace I m Matilda of Louvain
I'm particularly interested in what evidence there for the links between Adalolf and baldwin.
And who was Adelina of Holland? As the wiki page for Eustace I refs Tanners 1992 and 2004 works
on the subject I wonder if either of these have material evidence for this line and whether she
is the source for this descent, or has she just copied this from older works?
French wiki has Arnulf II rebelling against Arnulf the Old in 962 and become count on the latters
death, he has a brother Hugh of St pol who dies in the revolt, but here Arnulf II dies 971. His
son Arnulf III 971-90 succeeded him and he had another son Eustace who was buried with him
at St.Samer. But the sources for all this are
Andre Duchesne Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, etc 1632,
Alain Lottin Histoire de Boulogne sur Mer, and
Andrew Bridgeford the secret history of the Bayeux tapistry p386.
I hope Tanners refs are better than these.
Arnulf III was the father of Baldwin but this man dies in 1033 killed by Enguerrand de Ponthieu
[dc1045] who then married baldwins widow! According to french wiki Enguerrand was still a
child in 1026 and was under the guardian of his uncle Enguerrand of St.Riquier, so I dont see
how he could have killed Baldwin in c1027. I wonder where this date comes from?
Elsewhere on the internet theres mention of Ernicule of Boulogne father of a Eustace,
another Arnulf and a Matilda who marries Ardolf of Guines from a source called Lambert of
Ardres who wrote 200 years later. Was this Ernicule perhaps the same as 1 of the Arnulfs?
But if Ernicule is part of this family and Ardolf of Guines was the son of Sigfrid Dacus of
Guines and Elftrude of Flanders surely this marriage was way too close [2nd cousins?] to
be allowed if Elftrude was the daughter of Arnulf the old?
I'm also intrigued as to where the name Eustace came from. Is it present in noble families
before 1000AD? It seems greek in origin. The only Eustaces I recall is the roman martyr and
the 1 in Narnia.
On 20-Jan-23 11:56 AM, mike davis wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:16:57 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
Does this elaborate on the descent of Eustace I [d1047] from Adalolf of Boulogne [d933]?
On wiki the descent of the counts of Boulogne is thus
Adalolf 918-33 m X
|
Arnulf II 964-72 [the interregnum is due to Arnulf of Flanders seizing Boulogne
for himself apparently after Adalolf was killed by a swineherd]
|
Arnulf III 972-90
|
Baldwin 990-c.1027 m Adelina of Holland
|
Eustace I m Matilda of Louvain
I'm particularly interested in what evidence there for the links between Adalolf and baldwin.
And who was Adelina of Holland? As the wiki page for Eustace I refs Tanners 1992 and 2004 works
on the subject I wonder if either of these have material evidence for this line and whether she
is the source for this descent, or has she just copied this from older works?
French wiki has Arnulf II rebelling against Arnulf the Old in 962 and become count on the latters
death, he has a brother Hugh of St pol who dies in the revolt, but here Arnulf II dies 971. His
son Arnulf III 971-90 succeeded him and he had another son Eustace who was buried with him
at St.Samer. But the sources for all this are
Andre Duchesne Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, etc 1632,
Alain Lottin Histoire de Boulogne sur Mer, and
Andrew Bridgeford the secret history of the Bayeux tapistry p386.
I hope Tanners refs are better than these.
Arnulf III was the father of Baldwin but this man dies in 1033 killed by Enguerrand de Ponthieu
[dc1045] who then married baldwins widow! According to french wiki Enguerrand was still a
child in 1026 and was under the guardian of his uncle Enguerrand of St.Riquier, so I dont see
how he could have killed Baldwin in c1027. I wonder where this date comes from?
Elsewhere on the internet theres mention of Ernicule of Boulogne father of a Eustace,
another Arnulf and a Matilda who marries Ardolf of Guines from a source called Lambert of
Ardres who wrote 200 years later. Was this Ernicule perhaps the same as 1 of the Arnulfs?
But if Ernicule is part of this family and Ardolf of Guines was the son of Sigfrid Dacus of
Guines and Elftrude of Flanders surely this marriage was way too close [2nd cousins?] to
be allowed if Elftrude was the daughter of Arnulf the old?
I'm also intrigued as to where the name Eustace came from. Is it present in noble familiesPerhaps it would be helpful to read Stewart Baldwin's remarks in this
before 1000AD? It seems greek in origin. The only Eustaces I recall is the roman martyr and
the 1 in Narnia.
thread from 2004: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/wqB-06EJASs.
Maybe this will at least reduce the scope of questions in your post today. Peter Stewart
thanks. i dunno why this thread didnt come up when i searched group discussions
about boulogne.
On 20-Jan-23 11:56 AM, mike davis wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:16:57 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
Does this elaborate on the descent of Eustace I [d1047] from Adalolf of Boulogne [d933]?
On wiki the descent of the counts of Boulogne is thus
Adalolf 918-33 m X
|
Arnulf II 964-72 [the interregnum is due to Arnulf of Flanders seizing Boulogne
for himself apparently after Adalolf was killed by a swineherd]
|
Arnulf III 972-90
|
Baldwin 990-c.1027 m Adelina of Holland
|
Eustace I m Matilda of Louvain
I'm particularly interested in what evidence there for the links between Adalolf and baldwin.
And who was Adelina of Holland? As the wiki page for Eustace I refs Tanners 1992 and 2004 works
on the subject I wonder if either of these have material evidence for this line and whether she
is the source for this descent, or has she just copied this from older works?
French wiki has Arnulf II rebelling against Arnulf the Old in 962 and become count on the latters
death, he has a brother Hugh of St pol who dies in the revolt, but here Arnulf II dies 971. His
son Arnulf III 971-90 succeeded him and he had another son Eustace who was buried with him
at St.Samer. But the sources for all this are
Andre Duchesne Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, etc 1632,
Alain Lottin Histoire de Boulogne sur Mer, and
Andrew Bridgeford the secret history of the Bayeux tapistry p386.
I hope Tanners refs are better than these.
Arnulf III was the father of Baldwin but this man dies in 1033 killed by Enguerrand de Ponthieu
[dc1045] who then married baldwins widow! According to french wiki Enguerrand was still a
child in 1026 and was under the guardian of his uncle Enguerrand of St.Riquier, so I dont see
how he could have killed Baldwin in c1027. I wonder where this date comes from?
Elsewhere on the internet theres mention of Ernicule of Boulogne father of a Eustace,
another Arnulf and a Matilda who marries Ardolf of Guines from a source called Lambert of
Ardres who wrote 200 years later. Was this Ernicule perhaps the same as 1 of the Arnulfs?
But if Ernicule is part of this family and Ardolf of Guines was the son of Sigfrid Dacus of
Guines and Elftrude of Flanders surely this marriage was way too close [2nd cousins?] to
be allowed if Elftrude was the daughter of Arnulf the old?
I'm also intrigued as to where the name Eustace came from. Is it present in noble familiesPerhaps it would be helpful to read Stewart Baldwin's remarks in this
before 1000AD? It seems greek in origin. The only Eustaces I recall is the roman martyr and
the 1 in Narnia.
thread from 2004: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/wqB-06EJASs.
Maybe this will at least reduce the scope of questions in your post today. Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 6:23:58 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On 20-Jan-23 11:56 AM, mike davis wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:16:57 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
abbaye de Saint-Riquier, 'Remarques', p. lxvii, which does not cite the reference of the cartulary of Saint-Josse."Perhaps it would be helpful to read Stewart Baldwin's remarks in thisI have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
Does this elaborate on the descent of Eustace I [d1047] from Adalolf of Boulogne [d933]?
On wiki the descent of the counts of Boulogne is thus
Adalolf 918-33 m X
|
Arnulf II 964-72 [the interregnum is due to Arnulf of Flanders seizing Boulogne
for himself apparently after Adalolf was killed by a swineherd]
|
Arnulf III 972-90
|
Baldwin 990-c.1027 m Adelina of Holland
|
Eustace I m Matilda of Louvain
I'm particularly interested in what evidence there for the links between Adalolf and baldwin.
And who was Adelina of Holland? As the wiki page for Eustace I refs Tanners 1992 and 2004 works
on the subject I wonder if either of these have material evidence for this line and whether she
is the source for this descent, or has she just copied this from older works?
French wiki has Arnulf II rebelling against Arnulf the Old in 962 and become count on the latters
death, he has a brother Hugh of St pol who dies in the revolt, but here Arnulf II dies 971. His
son Arnulf III 971-90 succeeded him and he had another son Eustace who was buried with him
at St.Samer. But the sources for all this are
Andre Duchesne Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, etc 1632,
Alain Lottin Histoire de Boulogne sur Mer, and
Andrew Bridgeford the secret history of the Bayeux tapistry p386.
I hope Tanners refs are better than these.
Arnulf III was the father of Baldwin but this man dies in 1033 killed by Enguerrand de Ponthieu
[dc1045] who then married baldwins widow! According to french wiki Enguerrand was still a
child in 1026 and was under the guardian of his uncle Enguerrand of St.Riquier, so I dont see
how he could have killed Baldwin in c1027. I wonder where this date comes from?
Elsewhere on the internet theres mention of Ernicule of Boulogne father of a Eustace,
another Arnulf and a Matilda who marries Ardolf of Guines from a source called Lambert of
Ardres who wrote 200 years later. Was this Ernicule perhaps the same as 1 of the Arnulfs?
But if Ernicule is part of this family and Ardolf of Guines was the son of Sigfrid Dacus of
Guines and Elftrude of Flanders surely this marriage was way too close [2nd cousins?] to
be allowed if Elftrude was the daughter of Arnulf the old?
I'm also intrigued as to where the name Eustace came from. Is it present in noble families
before 1000AD? It seems greek in origin. The only Eustaces I recall is the roman martyr and
the 1 in Narnia.
thread from 2004:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/wqB-06EJASs.
Maybe this will at least reduce the scope of questions in your post today. >> Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
As long as we are talking about Ponthieu, Cawley in his discussion of Guy I, states the following:
"A charter dated 1100 included in the cartulary of Saint-Josse records a grant of fishing rights by 'Guido comes Monsteroli et Pontivensium' which names 'Hugo noster avus' and 'patre meo Ingerrano'", for which he gives as reference, "Chronique de l'
This is odd, given that according to Orderic, Guy was fighting in 1054, when any son of Enguerrand must have still been in his nappies. So, forged charter that got the details wrong? misread? completely made up?
On 23-Jan-23 6:57 AM, taf wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 6:23:58 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 20-Jan-23 11:56 AM, mike davis wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:16:57 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
abbaye de Saint-Riquier, 'Remarques', p. lxvii, which does not cite the reference of the cartulary of Saint-Josse."Perhaps it would be helpful to read Stewart Baldwin's remarks in thisDoes this elaborate on the descent of Eustace I [d1047] from Adalolf of Boulogne [d933]?I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't >>>
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
On wiki the descent of the counts of Boulogne is thus
Adalolf 918-33 m X
|
Arnulf II 964-72 [the interregnum is due to Arnulf of Flanders seizing Boulogne
for himself apparently after Adalolf was killed by a swineherd]
|
Arnulf III 972-90
|
Baldwin 990-c.1027 m Adelina of Holland
|
Eustace I m Matilda of Louvain
I'm particularly interested in what evidence there for the links between Adalolf and baldwin.
And who was Adelina of Holland? As the wiki page for Eustace I refs Tanners 1992 and 2004 works
on the subject I wonder if either of these have material evidence for this line and whether she
is the source for this descent, or has she just copied this from older works?
French wiki has Arnulf II rebelling against Arnulf the Old in 962 and become count on the latters
death, he has a brother Hugh of St pol who dies in the revolt, but here Arnulf II dies 971. His
son Arnulf III 971-90 succeeded him and he had another son Eustace who was buried with him
at St.Samer. But the sources for all this are
Andre Duchesne Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, etc 1632,
Alain Lottin Histoire de Boulogne sur Mer, and
Andrew Bridgeford the secret history of the Bayeux tapistry p386.
I hope Tanners refs are better than these.
Arnulf III was the father of Baldwin but this man dies in 1033 killed by Enguerrand de Ponthieu
[dc1045] who then married baldwins widow! According to french wiki Enguerrand was still a
child in 1026 and was under the guardian of his uncle Enguerrand of St.Riquier, so I dont see
how he could have killed Baldwin in c1027. I wonder where this date comes from?
Elsewhere on the internet theres mention of Ernicule of Boulogne father of a Eustace,
another Arnulf and a Matilda who marries Ardolf of Guines from a source called Lambert of
Ardres who wrote 200 years later. Was this Ernicule perhaps the same as 1 of the Arnulfs?
But if Ernicule is part of this family and Ardolf of Guines was the son of Sigfrid Dacus of
Guines and Elftrude of Flanders surely this marriage was way too close [2nd cousins?] to
be allowed if Elftrude was the daughter of Arnulf the old?
I'm also intrigued as to where the name Eustace came from. Is it present in noble families
before 1000AD? It seems greek in origin. The only Eustaces I recall is the roman martyr and
the 1 in Narnia.
thread from 2004:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/wqB-06EJASs.
Maybe this will at least reduce the scope of questions in your post today.
Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
As long as we are talking about Ponthieu, Cawley in his discussion of Guy I, states the following:
"A charter dated 1100 included in the cartulary of Saint-Josse records a grant of fishing rights by 'Guido comes Monsteroli et Pontivensium' which names 'Hugo noster avus' and 'patre meo Ingerrano'", for which he gives as reference, "Chronique de l'
This is odd, given that according to Orderic, Guy was fighting in 1054, when any son of Enguerrand must have still been in his nappies. So, forged charter that got the details wrong? misread? completely made up?Need it be said that Medieval Lands is not worth quoting?
On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 2:23:21 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On 23-Jan-23 6:57 AM, taf wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 6:23:58 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 20-Jan-23 11:56 AM, mike davis wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:16:57 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
abbaye de Saint-Riquier, 'Remarques', p. lxvii, which does not cite the reference of the cartulary of Saint-Josse."Perhaps it would be helpful to read Stewart Baldwin's remarks in thisDoes this elaborate on the descent of Eustace I [d1047] from Adalolf of Boulogne [d933]?I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't >>>>>
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
On wiki the descent of the counts of Boulogne is thus
Adalolf 918-33 m X
|
Arnulf II 964-72 [the interregnum is due to Arnulf of Flanders seizing Boulogne
for himself apparently after Adalolf was killed by a swineherd]
|
Arnulf III 972-90
|
Baldwin 990-c.1027 m Adelina of Holland
|
Eustace I m Matilda of Louvain
I'm particularly interested in what evidence there for the links between Adalolf and baldwin.
And who was Adelina of Holland? As the wiki page for Eustace I refs Tanners 1992 and 2004 works
on the subject I wonder if either of these have material evidence for this line and whether she
is the source for this descent, or has she just copied this from older works?
French wiki has Arnulf II rebelling against Arnulf the Old in 962 and become count on the latters
death, he has a brother Hugh of St pol who dies in the revolt, but here Arnulf II dies 971. His
son Arnulf III 971-90 succeeded him and he had another son Eustace who was buried with him
at St.Samer. But the sources for all this are
Andre Duchesne Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, etc 1632,
Alain Lottin Histoire de Boulogne sur Mer, and
Andrew Bridgeford the secret history of the Bayeux tapistry p386.
I hope Tanners refs are better than these.
Arnulf III was the father of Baldwin but this man dies in 1033 killed by Enguerrand de Ponthieu
[dc1045] who then married baldwins widow! According to french wiki Enguerrand was still a
child in 1026 and was under the guardian of his uncle Enguerrand of St.Riquier, so I dont see
how he could have killed Baldwin in c1027. I wonder where this date comes from?
Elsewhere on the internet theres mention of Ernicule of Boulogne father of a Eustace,
another Arnulf and a Matilda who marries Ardolf of Guines from a source called Lambert of
Ardres who wrote 200 years later. Was this Ernicule perhaps the same as 1 of the Arnulfs?
But if Ernicule is part of this family and Ardolf of Guines was the son of Sigfrid Dacus of
Guines and Elftrude of Flanders surely this marriage was way too close [2nd cousins?] to
be allowed if Elftrude was the daughter of Arnulf the old?
I'm also intrigued as to where the name Eustace came from. Is it present in noble families
before 1000AD? It seems greek in origin. The only Eustaces I recall is the roman martyr and
the 1 in Narnia.
thread from 2004:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/wqB-06EJASs.
Maybe this will at least reduce the scope of questions in your post today. >>>> Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
As long as we are talking about Ponthieu, Cawley in his discussion of Guy I, states the following:
"A charter dated 1100 included in the cartulary of Saint-Josse records a grant of fishing rights by 'Guido comes Monsteroli et Pontivensium' which names 'Hugo noster avus' and 'patre meo Ingerrano'", for which he gives as reference, "Chronique de l'
Need it be said that Medieval Lands is not worth quoting?
This is odd, given that according to Orderic, Guy was fighting in 1054, when any son of Enguerrand must have still been in his nappies. So, forged charter that got the details wrong? misread? completely made up?
It should only be quoted for forensic purposes (as in, how the hell did he manage to murder this).
Thanks for the clarification. I have been dealing with someone elsewhere insisting that Guy was son of Enguerrand because . . . MedLands, and is not accepting 'it is absurd on its face given the documented timeline for Guy'.
On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 2:23:21 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
On 23-Jan-23 6:57 AM, taf wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 6:23:58 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 20-Jan-23 11:56 AM, mike davis wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:16:57 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 on Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
abbaye de Saint-Riquier, 'Remarques', p. lxvii, which does not cite the reference of the cartulary of Saint-Josse."Perhaps it would be helpful to read Stewart Baldwin's remarks in thisDoes this elaborate on the descent of Eustace I [d1047] from Adalolf of Boulogne [d933]?I have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory hasn't >>>>>
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else out there with better access who can summarize and critique her argument?
On wiki the descent of the counts of Boulogne is thus
Adalolf 918-33 m X
|
Arnulf II 964-72 [the interregnum is due to Arnulf of Flanders seizing Boulogne
for himself apparently after Adalolf was killed by a swineherd]
|
Arnulf III 972-90
|
Baldwin 990-c.1027 m Adelina of Holland
|
Eustace I m Matilda of Louvain
I'm particularly interested in what evidence there for the links between Adalolf and baldwin.
And who was Adelina of Holland? As the wiki page for Eustace I refs Tanners 1992 and 2004 works
on the subject I wonder if either of these have material evidence for this line and whether she
is the source for this descent, or has she just copied this from older works?
French wiki has Arnulf II rebelling against Arnulf the Old in 962 and become count on the latters
death, he has a brother Hugh of St pol who dies in the revolt, but here Arnulf II dies 971. His
son Arnulf III 971-90 succeeded him and he had another son Eustace who was buried with him
at St.Samer. But the sources for all this are
Andre Duchesne Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, etc 1632,
Alain Lottin Histoire de Boulogne sur Mer, and
Andrew Bridgeford the secret history of the Bayeux tapistry p386.
I hope Tanners refs are better than these.
Arnulf III was the father of Baldwin but this man dies in 1033 killed by Enguerrand de Ponthieu
[dc1045] who then married baldwins widow! According to french wiki Enguerrand was still a
child in 1026 and was under the guardian of his uncle Enguerrand of St.Riquier, so I dont see
how he could have killed Baldwin in c1027. I wonder where this date comes from?
Elsewhere on the internet theres mention of Ernicule of Boulogne father of a Eustace,
another Arnulf and a Matilda who marries Ardolf of Guines from a source called Lambert of
Ardres who wrote 200 years later. Was this Ernicule perhaps the same as 1 of the Arnulfs?
But if Ernicule is part of this family and Ardolf of Guines was the son of Sigfrid Dacus of
Guines and Elftrude of Flanders surely this marriage was way too close [2nd cousins?] to
be allowed if Elftrude was the daughter of Arnulf the old?
I'm also intrigued as to where the name Eustace came from. Is it present in noble families
before 1000AD? It seems greek in origin. The only Eustaces I recall is the roman martyr and
the 1 in Narnia.
thread from 2004:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/wqB-06EJASs.
Maybe this will at least reduce the scope of questions in your post today. >>>> Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
As long as we are talking about Ponthieu, Cawley in his discussion of Guy I, states the following:
"A charter dated 1100 included in the cartulary of Saint-Josse records a grant of fishing rights by 'Guido comes Monsteroli et Pontivensium' which names 'Hugo noster avus' and 'patre meo Ingerrano'", for which he gives as reference, "Chronique de l'
Need it be said that Medieval Lands is not worth quoting?
This is odd, given that according to Orderic, Guy was fighting in 1054, when any son of Enguerrand must have still been in his nappies. So, forged charter that got the details wrong? misread? completely made up?
It should only be quoted for forensic purposes (as in, how the hell did he manage to murder this).
On 23-Jan-23 10:00 AM, taf wrote:
On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 2:23:21 PM UTC-8,
pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 23-Jan-23 6:57 AM, taf wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 6:23:58 PM UTC-8,Need it be said that Medieval Lands is not worth quoting?
pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 20-Jan-23 11:56 AM, mike davis wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:16:57 AM UTC,Perhaps it would be helpful to read Stewart Baldwin's remarks in this >>>>> thread from 2004:
pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 18-Jan-23 11:52 AM, taf wrote:
While looking for something else, I recently came across a 2004 >>>>>>>> book by Heather Tanner: Families, Friends and Allies: Boulogne >>>>>>>> and Politics in Northern France and England c. 879-1160 onI have a copy but haven't looked at it for years, and my memory
Google Books. In addition to the Boulogne counts, it gives a
good bit of information on affilliated families, such as the
counts of Ponthieu and of St Pol, and has extensive genealogical >>>>>>>> tables. Of note, she makes Hugh I of St Pol the younger brother >>>>>>>> of Enguerrand and Guy of Ponthieu (whereas the older
reconstruction had Hugh marrying a Ponthieu daughter).
Unfortunately, the Google preview is too disjointed and random >>>>>>>> for me to even figure out what is being proposed. Anyone else
out there with better access who can summarize and critique her >>>>>>>> argument?
hasn't
Does this elaborate on the descent of Eustace I [d1047] from
Adalolf of Boulogne [d933]?
On wiki the descent of the counts of Boulogne is thus
Adalolf 918-33 m X
|
Arnulf II 964-72 [the interregnum is due to Arnulf of Flanders
seizing Boulogne
for himself apparently after Adalolf was killed by a swineherd]
|
Arnulf III 972-90
|
Baldwin 990-c.1027 m Adelina of Holland
|
Eustace I m Matilda of Louvain
I'm particularly interested in what evidence there for the links
between Adalolf and baldwin.
And who was Adelina of Holland? As the wiki page for Eustace I
refs Tanners 1992 and 2004 works
on the subject I wonder if either of these have material evidence
for this line and whether she
is the source for this descent, or has she just copied this from
older works?
French wiki has Arnulf II rebelling against Arnulf the Old in 962
and become count on the latters
death, he has a brother Hugh of St pol who dies in the revolt, but >>>>>> here Arnulf II dies 971. His
son Arnulf III 971-90 succeeded him and he had another son Eustace >>>>>> who was buried with him
at St.Samer. But the sources for all this are
Andre Duchesne Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines,
d'Ardres, etc 1632,
Alain Lottin Histoire de Boulogne sur Mer, and
Andrew Bridgeford the secret history of the Bayeux tapistry p386.
I hope Tanners refs are better than these.
Arnulf III was the father of Baldwin but this man dies in 1033
killed by Enguerrand de Ponthieu
[dc1045] who then married baldwins widow! According to french wiki >>>>>> Enguerrand was still a
child in 1026 and was under the guardian of his uncle Enguerrand
of St.Riquier, so I dont see
how he could have killed Baldwin in c1027. I wonder where this
date comes from?
Elsewhere on the internet theres mention of Ernicule of Boulogne
father of a Eustace,
another Arnulf and a Matilda who marries Ardolf of Guines from a
source called Lambert of
Ardres who wrote 200 years later. Was this Ernicule perhaps the
same as 1 of the Arnulfs?
But if Ernicule is part of this family and Ardolf of Guines was
the son of Sigfrid Dacus of
Guines and Elftrude of Flanders surely this marriage was way too
close [2nd cousins?] to
be allowed if Elftrude was the daughter of Arnulf the old?
I'm also intrigued as to where the name Eustace came from. Is it
present in noble families
before 1000AD? It seems greek in origin. The only Eustaces I
recall is the roman martyr and
the 1 in Narnia.
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/wqB-06EJASs.
Maybe this will at least reduce the scope of questions in your post
today.
Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
As long as we are talking about Ponthieu, Cawley in his discussion
of Guy I, states the following:
"A charter dated 1100 included in the cartulary of Saint-Josse
records a grant of fishing rights by 'Guido comes Monsteroli et
Pontivensium' which names 'Hugo noster avus' and 'patre meo
Ingerrano'", for which he gives as reference, "Chronique de l'abbaye
de Saint-Riquier, 'Remarques', p. lxvii, which does not cite the
reference of the cartulary of Saint-Josse."
This is odd, given that according to Orderic, Guy was fighting in
1054, when any son of Enguerrand must have still been in his
nappies. So, forged charter that got the details wrong? misread?
completely made up?
It should only be quoted for forensic purposes (as in, how the hell
did he manage to murder this).
Cawley is of course a serial killer of genealogical data - I just looked
at the Medieval Lands entry for Guy I of Ponthieu and found this deadly blather:
"m firstly ADA, daughter of --- (-5 Mar before 1066) ... m secondly
ADILA [Ada], daughter of ---. ... Comte Guy & his [first] wife had one
child: 1. ANNE ... Comte Guy & his [second] wife had four children: 2. ENGUERRAND ... 3. AGNES ... 4. IDA ... 5. MATHILDE"
There is no evidence for two wives of the same name - Guy's only
recorded wife Ada (aka Adila, Adda) was the mother of his three known children.
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