Hello,Harald. I found this extremely surprising and I was immediately cautious given how sensational claims about Medieval genealogy are rarely backed up with adequate evidence.
Long time lurker, first time poster here. During a recent Wikipedia visit (not a worthwhile use of time, I know), there is purportedly new evidence claiming Sweyn Forkbeard's father was not Harald Bluetooth, but instead a certain Knut, brother of
Supposedly, evidence for this claim was discovered by Sven Rosborn in 2021 while translating a chronicle discovered in Germany in 2019, entitled "Gesta Wulinensis ecclesiae pontificum" by a certain Avico in 990. Rosborn appears to be an archeologist,not a Medievalist, leaving me with more doubts that this chronicle (if reliable) has been correctly translated and interpreted by Rosborn.
That said, I have not had a chance yet to consult this chronicle or Rosborn's book, "The Viking King’s Golden Treasure" (another reason to be suspicious, in my view), so I cannot dismiss them entirely out of hand.
Hello,Harald. I found this extremely surprising and I was immediately cautious given how sensational claims about Medieval genealogy are rarely backed up with adequate evidence.
Long time lurker, first time poster here. During a recent Wikipedia visit (not a worthwhile use of time, I know), there is purportedly new evidence claiming Sweyn Forkbeard's father was not Harald Bluetooth, but instead a certain Knut, brother of
Supposedly, evidence for this claim was discovered by Sven Rosborn in 2021 while translating a chronicle discovered in Germany in 2019, entitled "Gesta Wulinensis ecclesiae pontificum" by a certain Avico in 990. Rosborn appears to be an archeologist,not a Medievalist, leaving me with more doubts that this chronicle (if reliable) has been correctly translated and interpreted by Rosborn.
That said, I have not had a chance yet to consult this chronicle or Rosborn's book, "The Viking King’s Golden Treasure" (another reason to be suspicious, in my view), so I cannot dismiss them entirely out of hand.
If this has been discussed in the newsgroup before, I cannot see it, and so I apologize if I'm bringing up something that has already been settled.
I had similar concerns over Rosborn's work (which I have only been able to view as Google Books snippets), and in particular how he announced the discovery in a popular-audience book, where he used it as a prop for his view of the 10th century Baltic,rather than reporting the discovery of a new primary source in a scholarly venue. A historian would have immediately began an effort to publish an annotated and translated version of the chronicle, but Rosborn seems to lack the linguistic expertise to
The purported chronicle "Gesta Wulinensis ecclesiae pontificum",
supposedly written by a chaplain of Harald Bluetooth, is very likely a
hoax. The discovery in 2019 was not of an actual chronicle text in
Latin, capable of being studied by medievalists, but rather of fragments allegedly translated into Polish from a lost manuscript in the 19th
century. Strangely, echoes of Thietmar of Merseburg's genuine chronicle, written decades later, have been discerned in these extracts from the supposedly earlier history by "Avico".
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 5:17:58 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:forgeries an air of authenticity. Not to mention that the supposed author would have been so immediate as to have known the subject himself! That seems far too good to be true given how chronicles were usually composed.
The purported chronicle "Gesta Wulinensis ecclesiae pontificum",
supposedly written by a chaplain of Harald Bluetooth, is very likely a
hoax. The discovery in 2019 was not of an actual chronicle text in
Latin, capable of being studied by medievalists, but rather of fragments
allegedly translated into Polish from a lost manuscript in the 19th
century. Strangely, echoes of Thietmar of Merseburg's genuine chronicle,
written decades later, have been discerned in these extracts from the
supposedly earlier history by "Avico".
The plot thickens. It's certainly a hallmark of hoaxes and forgers to prepare their works on fragments (sometimes obtained from genuine blank leaves of Medieval parchment or ancient papyrus) and attempt to recreate known lost works, to give their
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 3:20:57 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:forgeries an air of authenticity. Not to mention that the supposed author would have been so immediate as to have known the subject himself! That seems far too good to be true given how chronicles were usually composed.
On 18-Jan-23 9:39 AM, Jean de Huit wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 5:17:58 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
The purported chronicle "Gesta Wulinensis ecclesiae pontificum",
supposedly written by a chaplain of Harald Bluetooth, is very likely a >>>> hoax. The discovery in 2019 was not of an actual chronicle text in
Latin, capable of being studied by medievalists, but rather of fragments >>>> allegedly translated into Polish from a lost manuscript in the 19th
century. Strangely, echoes of Thietmar of Merseburg's genuine chronicle, >>>> written decades later, have been discerned in these extracts from the
supposedly earlier history by "Avico".
The plot thickens. It's certainly a hallmark of hoaxes and forgers to prepare their works on fragments (sometimes obtained from genuine blank leaves of Medieval parchment or ancient papyrus) and attempt to recreate known lost works, to give their
mentioned by the same Thietmar. This is another trope of forgers, picking a known but obscure author, rather than an otherwise unknown one, to add a false patina of credibility.In this case the "author" Avico must have been an eye-witness to Danish
events as a visitor from elsewhere or perhaps a revenant spirit -
Thietmar mentioned him as a chaplain to the Obotrite chieftain Mistui,
and later his own "spiritual brother", noting that Avico had told him
about a miracle at Hamburg when the golden hand of Christ reached down
from heaven into the fire as Mistui burned the city. No mention of
Harald. Avico is entered in the necrology of the Merseburg cathedral
chapter on 7 October, evidently in 981 or 992 calculated from the Easter
date. His eyes cannot have been very sharp when he sat down to write a
chronicle in the 990s that miraculouly draws from Thietmar's written in
the 1010s.
Very suspicious. What are the chances, with all of the people living in this milieu but receiving no mention by contemporary chroniclers, one would discover a long-lost chronicle sharing text with Thietmar's that was written by someone specifically
On 18-Jan-23 9:39 AM, Jean de Huit wrote:forgeries an air of authenticity. Not to mention that the supposed author would have been so immediate as to have known the subject himself! That seems far too good to be true given how chronicles were usually composed.
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 5:17:58 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
The purported chronicle "Gesta Wulinensis ecclesiae pontificum",
supposedly written by a chaplain of Harald Bluetooth, is very likely a
hoax. The discovery in 2019 was not of an actual chronicle text in
Latin, capable of being studied by medievalists, but rather of fragments >> allegedly translated into Polish from a lost manuscript in the 19th
century. Strangely, echoes of Thietmar of Merseburg's genuine chronicle, >> written decades later, have been discerned in these extracts from the
supposedly earlier history by "Avico".
The plot thickens. It's certainly a hallmark of hoaxes and forgers to prepare their works on fragments (sometimes obtained from genuine blank leaves of Medieval parchment or ancient papyrus) and attempt to recreate known lost works, to give their
In this case the "author" Avico must have been an eye-witness to Danish events as a visitor from elsewhere or perhaps a revenant spirit -
Thietmar mentioned him as a chaplain to the Obotrite chieftain Mistui,
and later his own "spiritual brother", noting that Avico had told him
about a miracle at Hamburg when the golden hand of Christ reached down
from heaven into the fire as Mistui burned the city. No mention of
Harald. Avico is entered in the necrology of the Merseburg cathedral
chapter on 7 October, evidently in 981 or 992 calculated from the Easter date. His eyes cannot have been very sharp when he sat down to write a chronicle in the 990s that miraculouly draws from Thietmar's written in
the 1010s.
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