• Descents From James V for Paul Stuart (1760-1861)

    From ian fotheringham@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 14 13:21:39 2023
    Hello All
    I am hoping that some evidence can be found for the descendency of Paul Stuart from his putative parents John Stewart Stewart, 1st of Aubigny lord of Darnley and Marjory Stewart Stuart, of Faslane, descendent via the Earls of Moray from King James V
    This connection is recorded in several heritage sites - see examples below- ,

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-687349771/douglas-j-knox-tree?rootIndivudalID=1005743&familyTreeID=1

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-356484701/stoddard-turney-spence-mcdowell-rust-stuart-family-tree?rootIndivudalID=2065835&familyTreeID=

    notwithstading that, in some, Paul would be born after Sir Johns death. However, I can find no record of the existance of either parent who, with such illustrious ancestry , should be easy to find.

    There seems no record of Pauls birth, marriage or death on the scotlandspeople website, although his son Peter has birth recorded in 1793 to his spouse Anne Grant.
    I am intrigued that I can find no certificate of his existance ( apart from fathering his children) and that of his proposed , entitled, parents.

    Any enlightenment would be very greatly received
    Ian Fotheringham

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Will Johnson on Mon Jan 16 12:02:48 2023
    On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 11:41:31 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
    On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 1:21:41 PM UTC-8, ianfothe...@gmail.com wrote:
    Hello All
    I am hoping that some evidence can be found for the descendency of Paul Stuart from his putative parents John Stewart Stewart, 1st of Aubigny lord of Darnley and Marjory Stewart Stuart, of Faslane, descendent via the Earls of Moray from King James V
    This connection is recorded in several heritage sites - see examples below- ,

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-687349771/douglas-j-knox-tree?rootIndivudalID=1005743&familyTreeID=1

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-356484701/stoddard-turney-spence-mcdowell-rust-stuart-family-tree?rootIndivudalID=2065835&familyTreeID=

    notwithstading that, in some, Paul would be born after Sir Johns death. However, I can find no record of the existance of either parent who, with such illustrious ancestry , should be easy to find.

    There seems no record of Pauls birth, marriage or death on the scotlandspeople website, although his son Peter has birth recorded in 1793 to his spouse Anne Grant.
    I am intrigued that I can find no certificate of his existance ( apart from fathering his children) and that of his proposed , entitled, parents.

    Any enlightenment would be very greatly received
    Ian Fotheringham
    MyHeritage is not a heritage site, as in a source to be used.
    MyHeritage is anyone, like your crazy aunt gladys who wants to put up anything they want, sourced, fictional, utter nonsense such as this, and likewise.
    It should NOT be used whatsoever, as a proof of anything.


    Aubigny by the way was a grant in the area called then part of Berry, France
    It was not in Scotland.

    After Ludovic died childless, it was regranted in the French Peerage, and away from the name Stuart entirely, to a line calling themselves Lennox. So there is no way your person could have jumped into this line magically to claim it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to ianfothe...@gmail.com on Mon Jan 16 11:41:30 2023
    On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 1:21:41 PM UTC-8, ianfothe...@gmail.com wrote:
    Hello All
    I am hoping that some evidence can be found for the descendency of Paul Stuart from his putative parents John Stewart Stewart, 1st of Aubigny lord of Darnley and Marjory Stewart Stuart, of Faslane, descendent via the Earls of Moray from King James V
    This connection is recorded in several heritage sites - see examples below- ,

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-687349771/douglas-j-knox-tree?rootIndivudalID=1005743&familyTreeID=1

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-356484701/stoddard-turney-spence-mcdowell-rust-stuart-family-tree?rootIndivudalID=2065835&familyTreeID=

    notwithstading that, in some, Paul would be born after Sir Johns death. However, I can find no record of the existance of either parent who, with such illustrious ancestry , should be easy to find.

    There seems no record of Pauls birth, marriage or death on the scotlandspeople website, although his son Peter has birth recorded in 1793 to his spouse Anne Grant.
    I am intrigued that I can find no certificate of his existance ( apart from fathering his children) and that of his proposed , entitled, parents.

    Any enlightenment would be very greatly received
    Ian Fotheringham

    MyHeritage is not a heritage site, as in a source to be used.
    MyHeritage is anyone, like your crazy aunt gladys who wants to put up anything they want, sourced, fictional, utter nonsense such as this, and likewise.
    It should NOT be used whatsoever, as a proof of anything.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Mon Jan 16 15:00:55 2023
    On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 12:02:51 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 11:41:31 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
    On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 1:21:41 PM UTC-8, ianfothe...@gmail.com wrote:
    Hello All
    I am hoping that some evidence can be found for the descendency of Paul Stuart from his putative parents John Stewart Stewart, 1st of Aubigny lord of Darnley and Marjory Stewart Stuart, of Faslane, descendent via the Earls of Moray from King James
    V
    This connection is recorded in several heritage sites - see examples below- ,


    After Ludovic died childless, it was regranted in the French Peerage, and away from the name Stuart entirely, to a line calling themselves Lennox. So there is no way your person could have jumped into this line magically to claim it.

    Just to be more precise, The first Lord of Audley was indeed John Stuart of Darnley, but he lived centuries earlier. He became Lord of Aubigny in 1422 as a reward for his support of the French against the English, and held it until his 1429 death. He had
    married Elizabeth Lenox, and her lands and his paternal holding of Darnley went to Darnley to his eldest son (in turn father of the first Earl of Lenox), while the second son, another John Stuart, became 2nd Lord of Aubigny. in turn succeeded by his son
    Bernard/Berault Stuart, 3rd Lord from 1482. His death without sons in 1502 brought an end to the line of the 2nd Lord, and the second surviving son of his cousin, the Earl of Lenox, was brought over and married to Bernard's daughter. This was Robert
    Stuart, 4th Lord, who died childless in 1543.

    Again the line was extinct and a scion of the senior line was selected, this time the younger son fo the 3rd Earl of Lenoz, John Stuart, 5th Lord, who held Aubigny until 1567. His son was Esme Stuart, 6th Lord, who became Duke of Lenox and died in 1583.
    Again Aubigny was shunted to a younger son, another Esme Stuart, 7th Lord, who would succeed to the duchy of Lenox on the death of his elder brother in 1619, upon which he resigned Aubigny, and selected his three-year-old second son, Henry, who was sent
    to Aubigny and there eventually joined by his younger brothers George and Ludovic. Henry, 8th Lord, died as a childless teen in 1632, and was succeeded by George, 9th Lord, who died in the English Civil Wars in 1642, leaving a 2-year-old son Charles in
    England. His brother Ludovic, still in France, took the lordship as the 10th Lord, which was contested by the supporters of the infant Charles, and when Ludovic died childless in 1665, his nephew Charles succeeded as 11th Lord, and in turn died childless
    in 1672.

    It then passed to the French crown and was granted to the Duchess of Portsmouth, mistress of King Charles II of England, as a reward for her using her influences with Charles to bring about a peace treaty. It was when she died in 1732 that it passed to
    her grandson, Charles Lennox, Duke of Richmond.

    I do this so the original poster can see that there wasn't a John Stuart who held Aubigny since the 15th century, and his male line ended with his son, as did, sequentially, the male lines of each successive holder. This is an all-too-common pattern in
    medieval genealgy. Trace back to as far as you can, then find someone famous with the same surname, and fill in the gap with made-up people. This is the pattern seen with a London Holland family, made descendants of the childless Duke of Exeter, and
    basically what has been done with several Warren lines. There is only one way to progress effectively, tracing back from what is known, rather than selecting a desirable potential ancestor and inventing a connection, as the person who created this
    descent seems to ahve done.

    taf

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  • From Ronald Montague@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Tue Jan 17 08:47:04 2023
    Of COURSE MyHeritage is not a “Heritage” site whatever that means…
    You are looking for a primary source nicht wahr?
    Use the GENEALOGICAL PROOF STANDARD if you must.
    On with the program my good fellow!!

    On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 1:41:31 PM UTC-6, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 1:21:41 PM UTC-8, ianfothe...@gmail.com wrote:
    Hello All
    I am hoping that some evidence can be found for the descendency of Paul Stuart from his putative parents John Stewart Stewart, 1st of Aubigny lord of Darnley and Marjory Stewart Stuart, of Faslane, descendent via the Earls of Moray from King James V
    This connection is recorded in several heritage sites - see examples below- ,

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-687349771/douglas-j-knox-tree?rootIndivudalID=1005743&familyTreeID=1

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-356484701/stoddard-turney-spence-mcdowell-rust-stuart-family-tree?rootIndivudalID=2065835&familyTreeID=

    notwithstading that, in some, Paul would be born after Sir Johns death. However, I can find no record of the existance of either parent who, with such illustrious ancestry , should be easy to find.

    There seems no record of Pauls birth, marriage or death on the scotlandspeople website, although his son Peter has birth recorded in 1793 to his spouse Anne Grant.
    I am intrigued that I can find no certificate of his existance ( apart from fathering his children) and that of his proposed , entitled, parents.

    Any enlightenment would be very greatly received
    Ian Fotheringham
    MyHeritage is not a heritage site, as in a source to be used.
    MyHeritage is anyone, like your crazy aunt gladys who wants to put up anything they want, sourced, fictional, utter nonsense such as this, and likewise.
    It should NOT be used whatsoever, as a proof of anything.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ian fotheringham@21:1/5 to sok...@gmail.com on Thu Jan 19 03:16:13 2023
    On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 4:47:06 PM UTC, sok...@gmail.com wrote:
    Of COURSE MyHeritage is not a “Heritage” site whatever that means…
    You are looking for a primary source nicht wahr?
    Use the GENEALOGICAL PROOF STANDARD if you must.
    On with the program my good fellow!!
    On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 1:41:31 PM UTC-6, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 1:21:41 PM UTC-8, ianfothe...@gmail.com wrote:
    Hello All
    I am hoping that some evidence can be found for the descendency of Paul Stuart from his putative parents John Stewart Stewart, 1st of Aubigny lord of Darnley and Marjory Stewart Stuart, of Faslane, descendent via the Earls of Moray from King James
    V
    This connection is recorded in several heritage sites - see examples below- ,

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-687349771/douglas-j-knox-tree?rootIndivudalID=1005743&familyTreeID=1

    https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-356484701/stoddard-turney-spence-mcdowell-rust-stuart-family-tree?rootIndivudalID=2065835&familyTreeID=

    notwithstading that, in some, Paul would be born after Sir Johns death. However, I can find no record of the existance of either parent who, with such illustrious ancestry , should be easy to find.

    There seems no record of Pauls birth, marriage or death on the scotlandspeople website, although his son Peter has birth recorded in 1793 to his spouse Anne Grant.
    I am intrigued that I can find no certificate of his existance ( apart from fathering his children) and that of his proposed , entitled, parents.

    Any enlightenment would be very greatly received
    Ian Fotheringham
    MyHeritage is not a heritage site, as in a source to be used.
    MyHeritage is anyone, like your crazy aunt gladys who wants to put up anything they want, sourced, fictional, utter nonsense such as this, and likewise.
    It should NOT be used whatsoever, as a proof of anything.


    Wise words from one and all, and it's truly amazing to me, as a recent covert to this exciting area of study, that these 'sites' are dogged with fiction. Until Which? sheds it's light on the worst offenders, where does one look when the gov. sources run
    out of certificates? I had signed up to updates from several of these websites, which I now keep on a file called The Daily Liar.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)