William de Malbank, 3rd baron of Wych Malbank (modern Nantwich) died c1176 leaving 3 daughters (Auda, Eleanor and Philippa).
A son, also William, died early; dsp?

So the barony expired.

If there had been any descendants of earlier generations of the Malbank family, the barony might have survived.

A little while later a Piers de Malbank had daughters Isabel and Elizabeth, which may reflect two versions of the same name. Who was Piers and how did he fit in?

Elizabeth de Malbank married Sir Richard de Vernon bc 1355 a descendant of the Warin de Vernon who had married Auda, one of the Malbank heiresses mentioned above.

Can anyone help?

Thanks

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On Wednesday, 28 December 2022 at 10:37:01 UTC, Colin Piper wrote:

William de Malbank, 3rd baron of Wych Malbank (modern Nantwich) died c1176 leaving 3 daughters (Auda, Eleanor and Philippa).
A son, also William, died early; dsp?

So the barony expired.

If there had been any descendants of earlier generations of the Malbank family, the barony might have survived.

A little while later a Piers de Malbank had daughters Isabel and Elizabeth, which may reflect two versions of the same name. Who was Piers and how did he fit in?

Elizabeth de Malbank married Sir Richard de Vernon bc 1355 a descendant of the Warin de Vernon who had married Auda, one of the Malbank heiresses mentioned above.

Can anyone help?

Thanks

Neither the Malbank family nor Wych Malbank nor Nantwich appear in I. J. Sanders, _English Baronies_, the standard book on baronies. This suggests that the Malbanks did not hold a barony where a successor had to pay a fine of 100 marks to enter into the
benefits of the land involved. Twelfth-century baronies were lands and not hereditary titles. It was therefore possible for three heiresses to hold a third of a barony each.

There must therefore be a question mark over your source for William '3rd baron of Wych Malbank'.

Peter Howarth

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On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:08:42 PM UTC+1, Peter Howarth wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 December 2022 at 10:37:01 UTC, Colin Piper wrote:

William de Malbank, 3rd baron of Wych Malbank (modern Nantwich) died c1176 leaving 3 daughters (Auda, Eleanor and Philippa).
A son, also William, died early; dsp?

So the barony expired.

If there had been any descendants of earlier generations of the Malbank family, the barony might have survived.

A little while later a Piers de Malbank had daughters Isabel and Elizabeth, which may reflect two versions of the same name. Who was Piers and how did he fit in?

Elizabeth de Malbank married Sir Richard de Vernon bc 1355 a descendant of the Warin de Vernon who had married Auda, one of the Malbank heiresses mentioned above.

Can anyone help?

Thanks

Neither the Malbank family nor Wych Malbank nor Nantwich appear in I. J. Sanders, _English Baronies_, the standard book on baronies. This suggests that the Malbanks did not hold a barony where a successor had to pay a fine of 100 marks to enter into

the benefits of the land involved. Twelfth-century baronies were lands and not hereditary titles. It was therefore possible for three heiresses to hold a third of a barony each.

There must therefore be a question mark over your source for William '3rd baron of Wych Malbank'.

Peter Howarth

There were also other meanings. There were baronies within Cheshire, which were not tenancies in chief, but rather under the Earl. These are not counted by Sanders. I am not sure if this is one of them.

(Obviously by 1215 there were also considered to be more barons, who however could not claim to have a special fiscal regime or to go back to the time of Henry I and/or the 1166 cartae and so on. That does not seem to be relevant in this case.)

I see that on Wikitree this barony is referenced to a 1580 visitation https://books.google.be/books?id=hlYN_LmEu8YC&pg=PA158

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On Tuesday, 3 January 2023 at 10:11:04 UTC, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:08:42 PM UTC+1, Peter Howarth wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 December 2022 at 10:37:01 UTC, Colin Piper wrote:

William de Malbank, 3rd baron of Wych Malbank (modern Nantwich) died c1176 leaving 3 daughters (Auda, Eleanor and Philippa).
A son, also William, died early; dsp?

So the barony expired.

If there had been any descendants of earlier generations of the Malbank family, the barony might have survived.

A little while later a Piers de Malbank had daughters Isabel and Elizabeth, which may reflect two versions of the same name. Who was Piers and how did he fit in?

Elizabeth de Malbank married Sir Richard de Vernon bc 1355 a descendant of the Warin de Vernon who had married Auda, one of the Malbank heiresses mentioned above.

Can anyone help?

Thanks

Neither the Malbank family nor Wych Malbank nor Nantwich appear in I. J. Sanders, _English Baronies_, the standard book on baronies. This suggests that the Malbanks did not hold a barony where a successor had to pay a fine of 100 marks to enter into

the benefits of the land involved. Twelfth-century baronies were lands and not hereditary titles. It was therefore possible for three heiresses to hold a third of a barony each.

There must therefore be a question mark over your source for William '3rd baron of Wych Malbank'.

Peter Howarth

There were also other meanings. There were baronies within Cheshire, which were not tenancies in chief, but rather under the Earl. These are not counted by Sanders. I am not sure if this is one of them.

(Obviously by 1215 there were also considered to be more barons, who however could not claim to have a special fiscal regime or to go back to the time of Henry I and/or the 1166 cartae and so on. That does not seem to be relevant in this case.)

I see that on Wikitree this barony is referenced to a 1580 visitation https://books.google.be/books?id=hlYN_LmEu8YC&pg=PA158

Peter is right, that Wych Malbank was one of 12 cheshire baronies which reported to Hugh Lupus, earl of Chester.

There is a large display (on painted wood) in Chester Cathedral, showing all 12 barons, and Hugh Lupus. Included are the Venables, Vernon and Grosvenor barons.

The 1588 visitation just shows additional generations from the female descendents of William Malbank.

thank you for your contribution

Now, back to the question "who was Sir Piers de Malbank?"

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On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 4:18:39 PM UTC+1, Colin Piper wrote:

On Tuesday, 3 January 2023 at 10:11:04 UTC, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:08:42 PM UTC+1, Peter Howarth wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 December 2022 at 10:37:01 UTC, Colin Piper wrote:

William de Malbank, 3rd baron of Wych Malbank (modern Nantwich) died c1176 leaving 3 daughters (Auda, Eleanor and Philippa).
A son, also William, died early; dsp?

So the barony expired.

If there had been any descendants of earlier generations of the Malbank family, the barony might have survived.

A little while later a Piers de Malbank had daughters Isabel and Elizabeth, which may reflect two versions of the same name. Who was Piers and how did he fit in?

Elizabeth de Malbank married Sir Richard de Vernon bc 1355 a descendant of the Warin de Vernon who had married Auda, one of the Malbank heiresses mentioned above.

Can anyone help?

Thanks

Neither the Malbank family nor Wych Malbank nor Nantwich appear in I. J. Sanders, _English Baronies_, the standard book on baronies. This suggests that the Malbanks did not hold a barony where a successor had to pay a fine of 100 marks to enter

into the benefits of the land involved. Twelfth-century baronies were lands and not hereditary titles. It was therefore possible for three heiresses to hold a third of a barony each.

There must therefore be a question mark over your source for William '3rd baron of Wych Malbank'.

Peter Howarth

There were also other meanings. There were baronies within Cheshire, which were not tenancies in chief, but rather under the Earl. These are not counted by Sanders. I am not sure if this is one of them.

(Obviously by 1215 there were also considered to be more barons, who however could not claim to have a special fiscal regime or to go back to the time of Henry I and/or the 1166 cartae and so on. That does not seem to be relevant in this case.)

I see that on Wikitree this barony is referenced to a 1580 visitation https://books.google.be/books?id=hlYN_LmEu8YC&pg=PA158

Peter is right, that Wych Malbank was one of 12 cheshire baronies which reported to Hugh Lupus, earl of Chester.

There is a large display (on painted wood) in Chester Cathedral, showing all 12 barons, and Hugh Lupus. Included are the Venables, Vernon and Grosvenor barons.

The 1588 visitation just shows additional generations from the female descendents of William Malbank.

thank you for your contribution

Now, back to the question "who was Sir Piers de Malbank?"

Just to play devil's advocate I suppose he could simply be a from a knightly family with a connection to Malbank?

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Don’t know if you have seen the following in Complete Peerage Vol 10 pp 548-9 or of its relevant:

SIR HUGH DU PLESSIS, s. and h. by 1st wife, was aged 24-26 at his father's death.(c) He received gifts of timber from the King in 1265 and 1270; does were given to his (unnamed) wife (jacenti in puerperio) in Jan. 1269/70 and in Nov. following.(d) In
July1273 he went to France to meet King Edward on his return from the Holy Land.(e) He was sum. for service in Wales 1277 and1282.(f) He m., 1stly, as a child, before Oct. 1249,(g) Isabel, 3rd and yst. da. and coh. of John BISET (d. 1241), by Alice
BASSET.(h) The date of Isabel's death is uncertain.(a) He m., 2ndly, in or before Jan. 1278/9, Joan, widow of John DE SOLEHAM (or SULEHAM), of Hempton, Oxon, and da. of Hugh DE HOYVILL.(b) Hugh d. shortly before 7 July 1292.(c)

Note (h) pp 548-9
(h) Alice Basset was 3rd da. and coh. of Thomas Basset, of Headington, Oxon (d. 1220) (Excerpta e Rot. Fin., vol. i, p. 48; Dugdale, Baronage, vol. i, p. 632, citing Pipe Roll, 21 Hen. III, Oxon), by Philippe, eldest da. and coh. of William Malbank, lord
of Wich Malbank, Cheshire (Ormerod, Cheshire, vol. iii, p. 423). His 1st marriage brought him the manor of Headington and property in Wich Malbank (Cal. Patent Rolls, 1266-72, p. 414; Abbrev. Placitorum, p. 210).

Adrian

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