Rotrude was described by her father's biographer Einhard as his
firstborn daughter ("primogenita"), but she was most probably the
second-born and just the eldest living by the time Einhard (who was
close to the same age) knew her. She was most likely born in 775 or
possibly 776.
She was betrothed as a child of about 6 to the young Byzantine emperor Konstantinos VI (born in January 771). From the meaning of Rotrude she
was known to the Greeks as Erythro, 'red'; Christian Settipani in 1993 ascribed her betrothal to Easter (15 April) in 781, but the envoys sent
by empress Eirene did not leave Constantinople until some time before 25
May in that year and concluded their business after 1 September. A
eunuch named Elissaios was sent to Charlemagne's court to teach her
Greek and familiarise her with Byzantine customs. The contract was
broken off, to the distress of Konstantinos, in November 788 when he was unwillingly married to Maria from Amnia who had been chosen for him in a beauty contest.
Rotrude, in common with her sisters, never married. She lived for some
years as a nun with her paternal aunt Gisela, mainly at Chelles with occasional visits to the court at Aachen. They were well-read in
theology and maintained a friendly correspondence with Alcuin of York,
abbot of Saint-Martin at Tours. In some of his letters he called them by
the pseudonyms Lucia (for Gisela) and Columba (for Rotrude), referring
to Charlemagne as his lord David after the biblical king. This was a
fairly frequent practice of some notable authors at the time, and
another instance provides useful genealogical evidence in regard to Charlemagne's cousin Theodrada (about whom I will post in a separate
thread after Christmas).
The last certainly datable letter from Alcuin to the pair was written
after 4 April in 801, while at least one may have been as late as 803.
In any event, Rotrude cannot have become a mother by 800 as many
historians suppose, since Alcuin addressed the ladies explicitly as
virgins at the beginning of that year and after 19 April they described themselves to him as "most lowly maidservants of Christ"; he was still writing to them together at Chelles as his "dearest sister and daughter
in Christ" after 4 April 801. There is no chance at all that Alcuin
would have insulted the Virgin Mary by treating any other mother as a perpetual virgin after she had given birth to a son.
We know from the annals of Saint-Bertin that Rotrude was the mother of
Louis, who was arch-chancellor to his cousin Charles the Bald. Louis was abbot of Saint-Denis from late-840 and the editor of Charles the Bald's charters asserted that he was as old as the century so in his 40s by
then - however, this must be wrong by at least a few years and perhaps
by as many as 10. Janet Nelson suggested in 1998 that Rotrude may have
died in childbirth with Louis, in 810, and also expressed doubt about
his accepted paternity. As Nelson emphasised, the name of the child
would surely have been chosen by Charlemagne himself. His daughters may
have taken advantage of enough freedom to get pregnant, but not enough
as to give such a burdened name to his grandson.
The annals of Saint-Bertin mention under 858 that Louis was held captive
by Vikings along with his brother Gausbert ("Ludouuicum abbatem
monasterii Sancti Dyonisii cum fratre ipsius Gauzleno capiunt"), and the latter was almost certainly the son of this name of Rorgo, count of
Maine. Nelson and others thought that "brother" in this context might
not have meant a biological relationship: Gausbert succeeded Louis as arch-chancellor, but in 858 he was not yet employed in the chancery and although the men were fellow abbots they were not direct monastic
brethren - Louis was abbot of Saint-Denis and Saint-Wandrille, Gausbert
was abbot of Saint-Maur (he was an oblate there by March 839 and
ordained deacon in 845, presumably having reached the then-canonical age
of 25 at that time).
By September 844 Louis was abbot also of Saint-Riquier until some time
before late-February 856, and he may have exchanged this for
Saint-Wandrille where he was abbot by March in 853 or 854. He died on 9 January 867. Charles the Bald subsequently made a grant to the monks of Saint-Amand, when Gauzbert was abbot there, conditional on their saying
mass for Louis on this date as the anniversary of his death: unless the
two were paternal half-brothers, such a requirement would seem oddly arbitrary.
Rotrude's death in 810 was recorded in several sources. She is entered
in the obituaries of Saint-Denis and Notre-Dame d'Argenteuil under 3
June but according to the royal Frankish annals she died on 6 June.
Peter Stewart
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By 800/05 CM must have several teenage + daughters: do the sources say
what he thought of them being knocked up by various nobles? Cos it
wasnt just Rotrude, I think Nithard the Historian was the son of another daughter of CM, and when I looked this up to check I found there was
an Abbot Rihbod who was killed in the same battle in 844 who was
also the son of another daughter. I read that Nithards father became a
monk soon after his birth perhaps to avoid retribution like what
happened to Abelard. And as these daughters were nuns in convents
wasnt it a big scandal?
The annals of Saint-Bertin mention under 858 that Louis was held captive
by Vikings along with his brother Gausbert ("Ludouuicum abbatem
monasterii Sancti Dyonisii cum fratre ipsius Gauzleno capiunt"), and the
latter was almost certainly the son of this name of Rorgo, count of
Maine. Nelson and others thought that "brother" in this context might
not have meant a biological relationship: Gausbert succeeded Louis as
arch-chancellor, but in 858 he was not yet employed in the chancery and
although the men were fellow abbots they were not direct monastic
brethren - Louis was abbot of Saint-Denis and Saint-Wandrille, Gausbert
Were both Louis and Gauslin brought up at St.Denis?
I didnt realise their relationship was doubted until I looked at wiki
and it said some think he was a natural son of Louis the Pious, but
it didnt say who.
Is there a latin term for half brother, if thats what they were? I remember that sources use a phrase to describe the relationship of Charles Martel
and Hildebrand who were brothers sharing the same mother, is there a
similar way to express brothers who share the same father but
different mothers?
On 27-Dec-22 4:31 AM, mike davis wrote:
By 800/05 CM must have several teenage + daughters: do the sources sayWe are not told much more about Charlemagne's attitude to his daughters beyond the statement by Einhard that he kept them living with him rather
what he thought of them being knocked up by various nobles? Cos it
wasnt just Rotrude, I think Nithard the Historian was the son of another daughter of CM, and when I looked this up to check I found there was
an Abbot Rihbod who was killed in the same battle in 844 who was
also the son of another daughter. I read that Nithards father became a
monk soon after his birth perhaps to avoid retribution like what
happened to Abelard. And as these daughters were nuns in convents
wasnt it a big scandal?
than allowing them to marry. Janet Nelson once suggested that he held
them in a kind of incestuous harem, but that has not been accepted by
most historians (or, as far as I'm aware, repeated by her). Apart from Rotrude who lived with her aunt Gisela at Chelles for some years before
802/3 and Theodrada who may have become an abbess in their father's
lifetime, the daughters all seem to have remained at the royal/imperial
court until 814. When Louis the Pious succeeded as emperor he had a man
named Hodoin executed who was probably the lover of one (or more) of his sisters, and perhaps another blinded.
Nithard and his (anagrammatical) brother Hartnid were sons of Angilbert, abbot of Saint-Riquier, by Charlemagne's daughter Berta.
In the 12th
century a story was spun that she had piggy-backed him across a
courtyard under snow so that the emperor would not see a man's
footprints along with hers, but this was just a repetition of an old folk-tale. We have no reason to suppose that Charlemagne resented his daughters' behaviour or punished their lovers. Angilbert did not become
a monk after bedding Berta, as he was already abbot of Saint-Riquier by 789/90 well before her sons were born. He was arch-chaplain, or at any
rate minister of the chapel if only in minor orders, to her brother
Pippin, king of Italy, by ca 791 after becoming abbot. There is no solid evidence that he was a lay abbot as sometimes asserted.
As for Ricbod, also abbot of Saint-Riquier, who was killed in battle, he
was described by Prudentius of Troyes as a grandson of Charlemagne
though it has been suggested that this was from confusing him with
Rotrude's son Louis and/or Berta's son Nithard, grandsons of
Charlemagne, both of whom were abbots of Saint-Riquier after Ricbod.
Karl Ferdinand Werner made a reasonable though not compelling argument
that Ricbod could have been a son of one of three daughters of
Charlemagne (Gisela, Rothais or Hiltrude) possibly by Richwin, count of Padua.
The annals of Saint-Bertin mention under 858 that Louis was held captive >> by Vikings along with his brother Gausbert ("Ludouuicum abbatem
monasterii Sancti Dyonisii cum fratre ipsius Gauzleno capiunt"), and the >> latter was almost certainly the son of this name of Rorgo, count of
Maine.
not have meant a biological relationship: Gausbert succeeded Louis as
arch-chancellor, but in 858 he was not yet employed in the chancery and
although the men were fellow abbots they were not direct monastic
brethren - Louis was abbot of Saint-Denis and Saint-Wandrille, Gausbert
Were both Louis and Gauslin brought up at St.Denis?No, Gauslin (whom I mistakenly called Gausbert above) was an oblate at Saint-Maur by 839, then educated at Reims before returning to become
I didnt realise their relationship was doubted until I looked at wiki
and it said some think he was a natural son of Louis the Pious, but
it didnt say who.
deputy and later sole abbot - he was also subsequently abbot of Saint-Germain, Saint-Denis and Saint-Amand, then bishop of Paris.
Is there a latin term for half brother, if thats what they were? I remember that sources use a phrase to describe the relationship of Charles Martel and Hildebrand who were brothers sharing the same mother, is there a similar way to express brothers who share the same father butUnfortunately that level of precision is not to be found in the Latin terminology. Paternal full- as well as half-brothers are often described
different mothers?
as "germani", but there are instances where maternal half-brothers were classified in the same way.
Peter Stewart
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On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 1:09:24 AM UTC,pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
twins, andNithard and his (anagrammatical) brother Hartnid were sons of Angilbert,
abbot of Saint-Riquier, by Charlemagne's daughter Berta.
I've seen it suggested on French geni that they might have been
also that they had a sister Berta who married Helgaud Ct of Ponthieu[d866].
If you google this you will see this repeated all over these genealogic ancestry sites. AFAIK the only historical Helgaud is the father of Erluin Count of Montreuil in the 10th century. I think Flodoard says Helgaud was killed by Rollo in 926, and Erluin was killed in 945 also by thenormans. The
only other source which mentions this family [who soon lost
control of Montreuil to Arnulf of Flanders] is the chronicle of Hariulf
of St.riquier from c1100, who says that a Helgaud succeeded Rodulf
as lay abbot of St.Riquier, who may be an earlier ancestor or as Hariulf seemed to think the same man. I dont know where this Berta sister
of Nithard came from, but it seems ingrained in the web now.
the AB. ItsIn the 12th
century a story was spun that she had piggy-backed him across a
courtyard under snow so that the emperor would not see a man's
footprints along with hers, but this was just a repetition of an old
folk-tale. We have no reason to suppose that Charlemagne resented his
daughters' behaviour or punished their lovers. Angilbert did not become
a monk after bedding Berta, as he was already abbot of Saint-Riquier by
789/90 well before her sons were born. He was arch-chaplain, or at any
rate minister of the chapel if only in minor orders, to her brother
Pippin, king of Italy, by ca 791 after becoming abbot. There is no solid
evidence that he was a lay abbot as sometimes asserted.
As for Ricbod, also abbot of Saint-Riquier, who was killed in battle, he
was described by Prudentius of Troyes as a grandson of Charlemagne
nepos .. ex filia = grandson of CM by a daughter i think it says in
understandable that Prudentius writing in Troyes in the 840s might
not have known which of the 8? daughters of CM, was mother of Ricbod.
though it has been suggested that this was from confusing him with
Rotrude's son Louis and/or Berta's son Nithard, grandsons of
Charlemagne, both of whom were abbots of Saint-Riquier after Ricbod.
I didnt realise Nithard was an Abbot, if so only for a short time, becos Ricbod was killed June 844, and Nithard died in March 845 [according
to the intro in Scholz, Carolingian chronicles].
captiveKarl Ferdinand Werner made a reasonable though not compelling argument
that Ricbod could have been a son of one of three daughters of
Charlemagne (Gisela, Rothais or Hiltrude) possibly by Richwin, count of
Padua.
The annals of Saint-Bertin mention under 858 that Louis was held
and theby Vikings along with his brother Gausbert ("Ludouuicum abbatem
monasterii Sancti Dyonisii cum fratre ipsius Gauzleno capiunt"),
Vikingslatter was almost certainly the son of this name of Rorgo, count of
Maine.
Gauslin was probably quite a bit younger than Louis as well, since he
died in 886 and was an active defender in the seige of Paris by the
in 885.
Reading the story of their capture by the vikings in the AB, it says that Charles the Bald only got them released after paying the vikings 688lbs
of gold and 3250 lbs of silver. I didnt realise the later carolingians
were so rich! Thats a heck of lot of bullion to get hold of to hand over
to the terrorists of their day.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 1:09:24 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
Nithard and his (anagrammatical) brother Hartnid were sons of Angilbert,
abbot of Saint-Riquier, by Charlemagne's daughter Berta.
I've seen it suggested on French geni that they might have been twins, and also that they had a sister Berta who married Helgaud Ct of Ponthieu [d866]. If you google this you will see this repeated all over these genealogic ancestry sites.
As for Ricbod, also abbot of Saint-Riquier, who was killed in battle, he
was described by Prudentius of Troyes as a grandson of Charlemagne
though it has been suggested that this was from confusing him with
Rotrude's son Louis and/or Berta's son Nithard, grandsons of
Charlemagne, both of whom were abbots of Saint-Riquier after Ricbod.
Karl Ferdinand Werner made a reasonable though not compelling argument
that Ricbod could have been a son of one of three daughters of
Charlemagne (Gisela, Rothais or Hiltrude) possibly by Richwin, count of Padua.
On the question of Ricbod's maternity Werner reasonably enough (if not necessarily rightly) accepted the conventional view, based on the
statement by Prudentius of Troyes, that his mother was an unidentified daughter of Charlemagne. The text in the annals of Saint-Bertin under
844 is as follows (1964 edition by Grat & others, pp. 46-47):
"Qua inopinata congressione Hugo, presbyter et abbas, filius Karoli
Magni quondam imperatoris et frater Hlodoici itidem imperatoris,
patruusque Hlotharii, Hlodoici et Karoli regum, necnon Richboto abbas et
ipse consobrinus [Saint-Omer manuscript: cum sobrinus] regum, nepos
uidelicet Karoli imperatoris ex filia, Eckardus quoque et Rauanus
comites cum aliis pluribus interfecti sunt" (literally: In which
unexpected attack Hugo, priest and abbot, son of the late emperor
Charlemagne and brother of Louis likewise emperor, and paternal uncle of kings Lothar, Louis and Charles, as well as abbot Ricbod and himself a
cousin [Saint-Omer manuscript: and himself with a cousin] of the kings,
a grandson that is to say of Charlemagne by a daughter, also counts
Eckard and Ravan [Hraban] with many others were killed).
The 844 entry in the annals of Saint-Bertin quoted above has been almost invariably understood as referring "ipse" to Ricbod, indicating that he
was a grandson of Charlemagne and cousin (consobrinus or sobrinus) of
Louis I's three sons. However, the autograph manuscript of Prudentius no longer exists and this passage may be garbled by a copyist's error
omitting the name of count Nithard, certainly a grandson of Charlemagne
by a daughter (Berta), whom we know from his contemporary epitaph (here,
p. 310 no. 33
https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_poetae_3/index.htm#page/310/mode/1up) to have
been indeed lay abbot ("rector") of Saint-Riquier and killed on the same
date as Hugo and Ricbod.
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