I am hoping to exchange information with those who descend from or are interested in the St. John family of Fonmon, Glamorgan, Wales and Bletsoe, Bedfordshire, England prior to 1560.Harleian Society; 1885) is that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and his wife, Joan Sturry. I have found pretty persuasive evidence that Isabel was not a daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and certainly was not the daughter
The specific topic of this post is related to Isabel, wife of John St. John who died in 1424, parents of Oliver St. John (d. 1437) who married Margaret Beauchamp. The prevailing thought, supported by a pedigree in the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (
Isabel first married a John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. Those that follow the prevailing view that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight and Joan Sturry have not be able to identify the parents for John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. A Pavely/Paveleymarrying a Pavely/Paveley. Odd, but possible. Certainly not sibling.
What I believe the evidence I have seen proves is the John Pavely/Paveley, Jr., was the son of John Paveley, knight, and Joan Sturry, He died prior to his father, leaving his parents without issue and leaving his widow, Isabel, to survive him andremarry John St. John. For some reason that I do not clearly understand, John Paveley, knight, probably after knowing of his son's death that left him without issue made a trust deed involving the manor of Paulerspury, Northamptonshire, that had
I am more than willing to set forth my evidence to support my conclusions, but I don't want to take the time to do so in this initial posting. After I see that there is some interest in the topic I will post my evidence.
Bob Allen
On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 07:56:05 UTC, Robert Allen wrote:Harleian Society; 1885) is that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and his wife, Joan Sturry. I have found pretty persuasive evidence that Isabel was not a daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and certainly was not the daughter
I am hoping to exchange information with those who descend from or are interested in the St. John family of Fonmon, Glamorgan, Wales and Bletsoe, Bedfordshire, England prior to 1560.
The specific topic of this post is related to Isabel, wife of John St. John who died in 1424, parents of Oliver St. John (d. 1437) who married Margaret Beauchamp. The prevailing thought, supported by a pedigree in the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (
marrying a Pavely/Paveley. Odd, but possible. Certainly not sibling.Isabel first married a John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. Those that follow the prevailing view that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight and Joan Sturry have not be able to identify the parents for John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. A Pavely/Paveley
remarry John St. John. For some reason that I do not clearly understand, John Paveley, knight, probably after knowing of his son's death that left him without issue made a trust deed involving the manor of Paulerspury, Northamptonshire, that hadWhat I believe the evidence I have seen proves is the John Pavely/Paveley, Jr., was the son of John Paveley, knight, and Joan Sturry, He died prior to his father, leaving his parents without issue and leaving his widow, Isabel, to survive him and
I am more than willing to set forth my evidence to support my conclusions, but I don't want to take the time to do so in this initial posting. After I see that there is some interest in the topic I will post my evidence.
Bob Allen
Have you seen what is on the WikiTree profile for Isabel? https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Unknown-484302. This may well include some of the evidence you have found. The citations given point to Isabel having been the wife of "John Paveley junior" beforeshe married John St John.
On Wednesday, 16 November 2022 at 06:50:07 UTC, Colin Piper wrote:Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) is that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and his wife, Joan Sturry. I have found pretty persuasive evidence that Isabel was not a daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and certainly was not
On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 07:56:05 UTC, Robert Allen wrote:
I am hoping to exchange information with those who descend from or are interested in the St. John family of Fonmon, Glamorgan, Wales and Bletsoe, Bedfordshire, England prior to 1560.
The specific topic of this post is related to Isabel, wife of John St. John who died in 1424, parents of Oliver St. John (d. 1437) who married Margaret Beauchamp. The prevailing thought, supported by a pedigree in the 1566 Visitation of
marrying a Pavely/Paveley. Odd, but possible. Certainly not sibling.Isabel first married a John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. Those that follow the prevailing view that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight and Joan Sturry have not be able to identify the parents for John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. A Pavely/Paveley
remarry John St. John. For some reason that I do not clearly understand, John Paveley, knight, probably after knowing of his son's death that left him without issue made a trust deed involving the manor of Paulerspury, Northamptonshire, that hadWhat I believe the evidence I have seen proves is the John Pavely/Paveley, Jr., was the son of John Paveley, knight, and Joan Sturry, He died prior to his father, leaving his parents without issue and leaving his widow, Isabel, to survive him and
I am happy that there is some interest on this topic. Yes, as I posted in my initial message, the prevailing throught (including Wikitree) is that Isabel is the daughter of John Paveley and Joan Sturry. That is how I had it for a long time. It justI am more than willing to set forth my evidence to support my conclusions, but I don't want to take the time to do so in this initial posting. After I see that there is some interest in the topic I will post my evidence.
Bob Allen
On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 1:46:01 AM UTC-8, michae...@gmail.com wrote:before she married John St John.
Have you seen what is on the WikiTree profile for Isabel? https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Unknown-484302. This may well include some of the evidence you have found. The citations given point to Isabel having been the wife of "John Paveley junior"
Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) is that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and his wife, Joan Sturry. I have found pretty persuasive evidence that Isabel was not a daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and certainly was notOn Wednesday, 16 November 2022 at 06:50:07 UTC, Colin Piper wrote:
On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 07:56:05 UTC, Robert Allen wrote:
I am hoping to exchange information with those who descend from or are interested in the St. John family of Fonmon, Glamorgan, Wales and Bletsoe, Bedfordshire, England prior to 1560.
The specific topic of this post is related to Isabel, wife of John St. John who died in 1424, parents of Oliver St. John (d. 1437) who married Margaret Beauchamp. The prevailing thought, supported by a pedigree in the 1566 Visitation of
Paveley marrying a Pavely/Paveley. Odd, but possible. Certainly not sibling.Isabel first married a John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. Those that follow the prevailing view that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight and Joan Sturry have not be able to identify the parents for John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. A Pavely/
remarry John St. John. For some reason that I do not clearly understand, John Paveley, knight, probably after knowing of his son's death that left him without issue made a trust deed involving the manor of Paulerspury, Northamptonshire, that hadWhat I believe the evidence I have seen proves is the John Pavely/Paveley, Jr., was the son of John Paveley, knight, and Joan Sturry, He died prior to his father, leaving his parents without issue and leaving his widow, Isabel, to survive him and
never sat well we me that a Paveley married a Paveley. In addition, I could not find the father for John Paveley, Jr. who allegedly married Isabel Paveley (it clearly was not John Paveley and who married Joan Sturry, but since John Paveley, Jr. was a "I am more than willing to set forth my evidence to support my conclusions, but I don't want to take the time to do so in this initial posting. After I see that there is some interest in the topic I will post my evidence.
I am happy that there is some interest on this topic. Yes, as I posted in my initial message, the prevailing throught (including Wikitree) is that Isabel is the daughter of John Paveley and Joan Sturry. That is how I had it for a long time. It justBob Allen
and is connected with the Friends of Lydiard Park website https://www.thelydiardarchives.org.uk/ .Paveley, Jr., dying before John Paveley, Sr., leaving John Paveley, the elder, without issue when he died. I was examining my document with the intent to proving her wrong, still believing in the prevailing view. In the course of doing do, I believe I
She wrote and posted an article on the Paveleys that I read within the past week saying that Isabel was not the daughter of John Paveley who was married to Joan Sturry and said that John Paveley, Jr., was the son of John Paveley and Joan Sturry, John
There is a chronological list of the important evidence which I think supports breaking away from the prevailing view and agreeing with Sonia's view:calendarpatentr04blacgoog/page/477/mode/1up?q=Paule This entry proves the John Paveley, Jr., the kings knight, husband of Isabel died prior to August 18, 1394.
On August 18, 1394, there is a Calendar of Patent Roll entry regarding a grant for life to Isabel, late the wife of the king's knight John Paule of 20 pounds a year from issues of the manor of Kyngesthrope, Northampton. https://archive.org/details/
Sometime prior to February 8, 1395 John Paveley, knight (husband of Joan) granted the manor of Paulerspury, Northamptonshire, into trust. It is unclear whether this deed into trust was before or after John Paveley, Jr. died. The evidence of this is inthe September 21, 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem of Joan Paveley. https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol20/pp30-49 This Inquisition Post Mortem goes on to say that
On February 8, 1395 the trustees of the manor of Paulerspury granted the manor to Joan, widow of John Paveley, knight, for life as per the same 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem. They granted the reversion to Isabel, "then the wife of John Paveley junior"This proves that John Paveley, knight died prior to February 8, 1395 and assuming this deed was made shortly after JOHN PAVELEY, JR.'S death, it suggests that John Paveley, knight, died AFTER John Paveley, Jr. What is confusing is that it seems that John
On June 16, 1395, there is a Calendar of Close Rolls entry regarding a grant referencing an exchange in which John Seynt Johan, knight, and Isabel, his wife were to receive 100 marks a year from the customs on goods out of the port of Kyngeston uponHull. https://archive.org/details/calendarpatentr04blacgoog/page/583/mode/1up?q=seynt This proves the Isabel, widow of John Paveley, Jr., remarried to John St. John prior to June 16, 1395.
On July 12, 1403, as per Joan Paveley's 1414 Inquisition (see link above), Joan Paveley, widow of John Paveley, knight, granted most of her life interest to John St. John, Isabel his wife and Oliver their son. .of the Inquisition was that the Manor of Paulerspury should remain to "them" (John St. John and Isabel, his wife) and "the heirs and assigns of Isabel". Also, at the end of the Inquisition it says that Joan's heir was a son of her sister Sybil. If Isabel
On February 1, 1414, Joan (Stury) Paveley, widow of John Paveley, knight, died as per her 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem (see link above) and at the time of the Inquisition John St. John and Isabel were still alive, "Isabel being aged 40". The conclusion
So If Isabel was not the daughter of Joan Sturry, she was probably not the daughter of Joan's husband, John Sturry. I realize there is a slight gap in logic here, because John PAVELEY (husband of Joan) could have been previously marriage and had Isabelby his previous wife, but I have seen no evidence of this possibility.
I know it is unusual for the manor of Paulerspury to has passed down in the Paveley family and then when John Paveley (husband of Joan Sturry) died without issue surviving to be given to John Paveley's daughter-in-law and then for it to pass down tothe child of his daughter-in-law's 2nd husband, John St. John, but this is what the evidence shows to have happened. I am not sure what the king's involvement was, if any, to allow this to happen.
On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 1:56:06 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:before she married John St John.
On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 1:46:01 AM UTC-8, michae...@gmail.com wrote:
Have you seen what is on the WikiTree profile for Isabel? https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Unknown-484302. This may well include some of the evidence you have found. The citations given point to Isabel having been the wife of "John Paveley junior"
Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) is that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and his wife, Joan Sturry. I have found pretty persuasive evidence that Isabel was not a daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight, and certainly was notOn Wednesday, 16 November 2022 at 06:50:07 UTC, Colin Piper wrote:
On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 07:56:05 UTC, Robert Allen wrote:
I am hoping to exchange information with those who descend from or are interested in the St. John family of Fonmon, Glamorgan, Wales and Bletsoe, Bedfordshire, England prior to 1560.
The specific topic of this post is related to Isabel, wife of John St. John who died in 1424, parents of Oliver St. John (d. 1437) who married Margaret Beauchamp. The prevailing thought, supported by a pedigree in the 1566 Visitation of
Paveley marrying a Pavely/Paveley. Odd, but possible. Certainly not sibling.Isabel first married a John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. Those that follow the prevailing view that Isabel was the daughter of John Pavely/Paveley, knight and Joan Sturry have not be able to identify the parents for John Pavely/Paveley, Jr. A Pavely/
and remarry John St. John. For some reason that I do not clearly understand, John Paveley, knight, probably after knowing of his son's death that left him without issue made a trust deed involving the manor of Paulerspury, Northamptonshire, that hadWhat I believe the evidence I have seen proves is the John Pavely/Paveley, Jr., was the son of John Paveley, knight, and Joan Sturry, He died prior to his father, leaving his parents without issue and leaving his widow, Isabel, to survive him
never sat well we me that a Paveley married a Paveley. In addition, I could not find the father for John Paveley, Jr. who allegedly married Isabel Paveley (it clearly was not John Paveley and who married Joan Sturry, but since John Paveley, Jr. was a "I am more than willing to set forth my evidence to support my conclusions, but I don't want to take the time to do so in this initial posting. After I see that there is some interest in the topic I will post my evidence.
I am happy that there is some interest on this topic. Yes, as I posted in my initial message, the prevailing throught (including Wikitree) is that Isabel is the daughter of John Paveley and Joan Sturry. That is how I had it for a long time. It justBob Allen
Paveley, Jr., dying before John Paveley, Sr., leaving John Paveley, the elder, without issue when he died. I was examining my document with the intent to proving her wrong, still believing in the prevailing view. In the course of doing do, I believe Iand is connected with the Friends of Lydiard Park website https://www.thelydiardarchives.org.uk/ .
She wrote and posted an article on the Paveleys that I read within the past week saying that Isabel was not the daughter of John Paveley who was married to Joan Sturry and said that John Paveley, Jr., was the son of John Paveley and Joan Sturry, John
calendarpatentr04blacgoog/page/477/mode/1up?q=Paule This entry proves the John Paveley, Jr., the kings knight, husband of Isabel died prior to August 18, 1394.There is a chronological list of the important evidence which I think supports breaking away from the prevailing view and agreeing with Sonia's view:
On August 18, 1394, there is a Calendar of Patent Roll entry regarding a grant for life to Isabel, late the wife of the king's knight John Paule of 20 pounds a year from issues of the manor of Kyngesthrope, Northampton. https://archive.org/details/
in the September 21, 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem of Joan Paveley. https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol20/pp30-49 This Inquisition Post Mortem goes on to say thatSometime prior to February 8, 1395 John Paveley, knight (husband of Joan) granted the manor of Paulerspury, Northamptonshire, into trust. It is unclear whether this deed into trust was before or after John Paveley, Jr. died. The evidence of this is
This proves that John Paveley, knight died prior to February 8, 1395 and assuming this deed was made shortly after JOHN PAVELEY, JR.'S death, it suggests that John Paveley, knight, died AFTER John Paveley, Jr. What is confusing is that it seems that JohnOn February 8, 1395 the trustees of the manor of Paulerspury granted the manor to Joan, widow of John Paveley, knight, for life as per the same 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem. They granted the reversion to Isabel, "then the wife of John Paveley junior"
Hull. https://archive.org/details/calendarpatentr04blacgoog/page/583/mode/1up?q=seynt This proves the Isabel, widow of John Paveley, Jr., remarried to John St. John prior to June 16, 1395.On June 16, 1395, there is a Calendar of Close Rolls entry regarding a grant referencing an exchange in which John Seynt Johan, knight, and Isabel, his wife were to receive 100 marks a year from the customs on goods out of the port of Kyngeston upon
conclusion of the Inquisition was that the Manor of Paulerspury should remain to "them" (John St. John and Isabel, his wife) and "the heirs and assigns of Isabel". Also, at the end of the Inquisition it says that Joan's heir was a son of her sister Sybil.On July 12, 1403, as per Joan Paveley's 1414 Inquisition (see link above), Joan Paveley, widow of John Paveley, knight, granted most of her life interest to John St. John, Isabel his wife and Oliver their son. .
On February 1, 1414, Joan (Stury) Paveley, widow of John Paveley, knight, died as per her 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem (see link above) and at the time of the Inquisition John St. John and Isabel were still alive, "Isabel being aged 40". The
Isabel by his previous wife, but I have seen no evidence of this possibility.So If Isabel was not the daughter of Joan Sturry, she was probably not the daughter of Joan's husband, John Sturry. I realize there is a slight gap in logic here, because John PAVELEY (husband of Joan) could have been previously marriage and had
the child of his daughter-in-law's 2nd husband, John St. John, but this is what the evidence shows to have happened. I am not sure what the king's involvement was, if any, to allow this to happen.I know it is unusual for the manor of Paulerspury to has passed down in the Paveley family and then when John Paveley (husband of Joan Sturry) died without issue surviving to be given to John Paveley's daughter-in-law and then for it to pass down to
Hi All,
I want to correct my last post. I was careless in proofreading. I have inserted the correction in all CAPS in the repeated conversation at the beginning of this message and will repeat them below.
In the paragraph the begins "On August 8, 1395" on the 3rd line I have substituted "JOHN PAVELEY, JR.'S" instead of "his" to provide clarify.
In the second to the last paragraph I meant to say "John PAVELEY (husband of Joan) . . . ." instead of John Sturry.
Sorry for the confusion.
Bob
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
Thanks
prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has been the
I have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be the Oliver St.John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St. John and
John St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5D
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
Bob
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has been the
St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St. John andI have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be the Oliver
3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
BobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:46:13 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has been the
Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St.I have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be the
3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
When someone, makes an affirmative declaration of a set of facts it is incumbent upon *them* to supply their sources. Not everyone else to show why they are wrong.BobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has been the
St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St. John andI have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be the Oliver
3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
BobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:46:13 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has been the
Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St.I have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be the
3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
BobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-8, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:46:13 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has been the
Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St.I have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be the
3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
And about the exact citation showing that Isabel was the Great Grandmother not the motherBobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
See the supposed source you claim you CONSULTED which lays out the entire descent here
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitations_of_Bedfordshire/yygEAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA52&printsec=frontcover
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:04:19 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:the prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:15 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-8, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:46:13 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has been
Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St.I have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be the
3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
And about the exact citation showing that Isabel was the Great Grandmother not the motherBobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
See the supposed source you claim you CONSULTED which lays out the entire descent here
Betham, following Collins also repeats this line as I gave ithttps://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitations_of_Bedfordshire/yygEAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA52&printsec=frontcoverOoops that should say not the "supposed source you claim" but the "source you supposedly claimed"
The source is real
The consultation is sorely lacking in factual accuracy
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Peerage_of_England/7jAUAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=sir%20john%20delabere&pg=PA68&printsec=frontcover
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:15 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:the prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-8, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:46:13 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has been
Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St.I have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be the
3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
And about the exact citation showing that Isabel was the Great Grandmother not the motherBobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
See the supposed source you claim you CONSULTED which lays out the entire descent here
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitations_of_Bedfordshire/yygEAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA52&printsec=frontcoverOoops that should say not the "supposed source you claim" but the "source you supposedly claimed"
The source is real
The consultation is sorely lacking in factual accuracy
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:32:20 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:been the prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:04:19 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:15 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-8, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:46:13 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has
the Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St.I have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be
3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-b54a-
and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
And about the exact citation showing that Isabel was the Great Grandmother not the motherBobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
See the supposed source you claim you CONSULTED which lays out the entire descent here
Betham, following Collins also repeats this line as I gave ithttps://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitations_of_Bedfordshire/yygEAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA52&printsec=frontcoverOoops that should say not the "supposed source you claim" but the "source you supposedly claimed"
The source is real
The consultation is sorely lacking in factual accuracy
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Peerage_of_England/7jAUAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=sir%20john%20delabere&pg=PA68&printsec=frontcoverCollins add a missing note that John St John, who was Mayor of Bordeaux, *in* 1395 by deed entailed...
So he was living an adult in 1395 so born by 1374
His mother Elizabeth delabare (or de la bare) was thus born by 1359
which refines what i had for her dates
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:40:35 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:been the prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:32:20 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:04:19 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:15 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-8, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:46:13 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has
the Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the John St.I have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to be
b54a-3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-
under age in 1381), born at New Sarum.and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
And about the exact citation showing that Isabel was the Great Grandmother not the motherBobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
See the supposed source you claim you CONSULTED which lays out the entire descent here
Betham, following Collins also repeats this line as I gave ithttps://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitations_of_Bedfordshire/yygEAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA52&printsec=frontcoverOoops that should say not the "supposed source you claim" but the "source you supposedly claimed"
The source is real
The consultation is sorely lacking in factual accuracy
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Peerage_of_England/7jAUAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=sir%20john%20delabere&pg=PA68&printsec=frontcoverCollins add a missing note that John St John, who was Mayor of Bordeaux, *in* 1395 by deed entailed...
So he was living an adult in 1395 so born by 1374The possible birth range for that John St John, Mayor of Bordeaux who was the *actual* father of Oliver St John d 1437 can be further narrowed
His mother Elizabeth delabare (or de la bare) was thus born by 1359
which refines what i had for her dates
quoting from https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I104783407&tree=OSA0001
"Elizabeth, da. of Sir John de la Bere. Living 46 Edw. III. See Inq. p.m. 7 Ric. II., No. 115. Eliz., widow of John, son of Oliver St. John, asserts a certain boy named John to be son and heir of John de St. John, son and heir of Oliver and her son (
The author is clearly quoting an IPM here and so this source can be trusted pending looking up that IPM
So the Mayor was born exactly between 1360 and 1374 per my earlier above.
He married Elizabeth Paulet
The were the parents of Oliver d 1437
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:47:35 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:been the prevailing view and that, instead, John Paveley, Jr., who married Isabel was the son of John Paveley, the elder, and Joan Sturry and Isabel was probably not a Paveley at all.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:40:35 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:32:20 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:04:19 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:15 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-8, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:46:13 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 2:50:38 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
You started by saying that the father was Oliver St John (Oliver /St John/ of Fonman and Penmark, co Glamorgan; and of Paulerspury, co Northants; Knt) d 1437 was that John was d 1424
Would you back that up with a specific citation to a book claiming this connection?
ThanksLet me start by saying that I don't understand what you (wjhons) is asking me to document.
The point of my starting this thread was to communicate and test my recently changed conclusion that Isabel Paveley, husband of John St. John (her second marriage), was NOT the daughter of John Paveley, the elder ,and Joan Sturry as has
be the Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere were the parents of John St. John who married Isabel. Are you questioning this statement? I can provide sources for either. While the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire (Harleian Society; 1885) states the JohnI have examined my previous posts in this thread in which I think I said in passing that John St. John and Isabel are the parents of Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp. Are you questioning this statement? It also happens to
b54a-3d8aaa389abd/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C2%22%5DJohn St. John who married Isabel was born by 1373 and probably not too long before 1373. This is established by two 1373 Arundel trust deeds lodged at the Cornwall Records office. https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/09daba34-3920-4052-
under age in 1381), born at New Sarum.and https://kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/407a7dfd-c9fe-4d7d-a674-55593b79dcbe/?tH=%5B%22AR%7C20%7C4%22%5D
If that does not answer you question, please be more specific as to what you are questioning and how you differ in your opinion from mine and what evidence you have that supports your version of the facts.
Cheers,
And about the exact citation showing that Isabel was the Great Grandmother not the motherBobYou are waving your hands
Please provide an exact specific citation for the question of the parents of that John St John who d 1437
Provide the exact URL that points to the specific claim thats what I'm asking
See the supposed source you claim you CONSULTED which lays out the entire descent here
Betham, following Collins also repeats this line as I gave ithttps://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitations_of_Bedfordshire/yygEAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA52&printsec=frontcoverOoops that should say not the "supposed source you claim" but the "source you supposedly claimed"
The source is real
The consultation is sorely lacking in factual accuracy
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Peerage_of_England/7jAUAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=sir%20john%20delabere&pg=PA68&printsec=frontcoverCollins add a missing note that John St John, who was Mayor of Bordeaux, *in* 1395 by deed entailed...
So he was living an adult in 1395 so born by 1374The possible birth range for that John St John, Mayor of Bordeaux who was the *actual* father of Oliver St John d 1437 can be further narrowed
His mother Elizabeth delabare (or de la bare) was thus born by 1359 which refines what i had for her dates
quoting from https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I104783407&tree=OSA0001
"Elizabeth, da. of Sir John de la Bere. Living 46 Edw. III. See Inq. p.m. 7 Ric. II., No. 115. Eliz., widow of John, son of Oliver St. John, asserts a certain boy named John to be son and heir of John de St. John, son and heir of Oliver and her son (
The author is clearly quoting an IPM here and so this source can be trusted pending looking up that IPM
So the Mayor was born exactly between 1360 and 1374 per my earlier above. He married Elizabeth PauletJust when I thought I was finished
The were the parents of Oliver d 1437
This so-called IPM is not an IPM at all, it is a pleading
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_the_Part_of_West_Somerset/nCYVAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=.%20%227%20Ric.%20II.%20No.%20115%22&pg=PA60&printsec=frontcover
Just one part of a long lawsuit
In response to wjhons multiple messages posted today They are destructive, not constructive, abusive and insulting. You just know you are right and are unwilling to study the evidence and the time line to see you (wjhons) and the 1566 Vistiation ofBedfordshire are wrong about the generation where John St. John who married Isabel belong.
The 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem for Joan (Sturry) Paveley shows that the manor of Paulerspury was in the Paveley family until the trustee of John Paveley the elder deed the manor to Joan Paveley, his widow, for her life with the remainder to John St.John and Isabel, his wife, formerly the wife of John Paveley, Jr., deceased. Here is the British History Online link to the Inquisition P. M. (you have to scroll down the page to find it). https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol20/pp30-
I hope we can agree that Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp was born between 1395 and 1400 and died in 1447. I can cite a lot of references for this, but at this point suffice to say Douglas Richardson, ""Magna Carta Ancestry", page 714.John, father of Oliver St. John who married Elizabeth de la Bere was born about 1325 (I think he was a lot older).
So, you (wjhons) is saying that Isabel, who married 2nd John St. John was the great grandfather of Oliver St. John who was born between 1395 and 1400. Douglas Richardson says born about 1398.
We know from the Arundel deeds at the Cornwall records office, that John St. John, son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere was born by 1373.
As per the 1414 I.P.M. of Joan (Sturry) Paveley we know that a John St. John who married Isabel, widow of John Paveley, Jr., married her circa 1395.
So, if John St. John son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere was an infant in 1373 (he could be older), that means that Oliver St. John, husband of Elizabeth de la Bere was born no later than about 1350 (I think he was a lot older) and John St.
So here are the choices.1398, died 1437, who married Margaret Beauchamp, and the St. John of the Bletsoe pedigree in the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire is wrong as to what generation this couple (john St. John who married Isabel) is placed.
My contention is that John St. John, son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere, born circa (not after) 1373 married Isabel about 1395, widow of John Paveley, Jr. Isabel was born circa 1374, and they were the parent of Oliver St. John, born circa
Wjohns contention is that John St. John, born circa 1325 (or earlier), great grandfather of Oliver St. John born circa 1398, was still alive in 1395 to marry Isabel, born circa 1374, widow of John Paveley, Jr. and that he (John St. John) was stillliving in 1414, because the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire has to be right as to the generation this couple is placed. But wait, that would mean the Oliver St. John (who married Elizabeth de la Bere) was born no earlier than circa 1420 and his grandson
Matter submitted to the jury.
Cheers,
Bob
In response to wjhons multiple messages posted today They are destructive, not constructive, abusive and insulting.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 9:39:59 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:Bedfordshire are wrong about the generation where John St. John who married Isabel belong.
In response to wjhons multiple messages posted today They are destructive, not constructive, abusive and insulting. You just know you are right and are unwilling to study the evidence and the time line to see you (wjhons) and the 1566 Vistiation of
John and Isabel, his wife, formerly the wife of John Paveley, Jr., deceased. Here is the British History Online link to the Inquisition P. M. (you have to scroll down the page to find it). https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol20/pp30-The 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem for Joan (Sturry) Paveley shows that the manor of Paulerspury was in the Paveley family until the trustee of John Paveley the elder deed the manor to Joan Paveley, his widow, for her life with the remainder to John St.
St. John, father of Oliver St. John who married Elizabeth de la Bere was born about 1325 (I think he was a lot older).I hope we can agree that Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp was born between 1395 and 1400 and died in 1447. I can cite a lot of references for this, but at this point suffice to say Douglas Richardson, ""Magna Carta Ancestry", page 714.
So, you (wjhons) is saying that Isabel, who married 2nd John St. John was the great grandfather of Oliver St. John who was born between 1395 and 1400. Douglas Richardson says born about 1398.
We know from the Arundel deeds at the Cornwall records office, that John St. John, son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere was born by 1373.
As per the 1414 I.P.M. of Joan (Sturry) Paveley we know that a John St. John who married Isabel, widow of John Paveley, Jr., married her circa 1395.
So, if John St. John son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere was an infant in 1373 (he could be older), that means that Oliver St. John, husband of Elizabeth de la Bere was born no later than about 1350 (I think he was a lot older) and John
circa 1398, died 1437, who married Margaret Beauchamp, and the St. John of the Bletsoe pedigree in the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire is wrong as to what generation this couple (john St. John who married Isabel) is placed.So here are the choices.
My contention is that John St. John, son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere, born circa (not after) 1373 married Isabel about 1395, widow of John Paveley, Jr. Isabel was born circa 1374, and they were the parent of Oliver St. John, born
living in 1414, because the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire has to be right as to the generation this couple is placed. But wait, that would mean the Oliver St. John (who married Elizabeth de la Bere) was born no earlier than circa 1420 and his grandsonWjohns contention is that John St. John, born circa 1325 (or earlier), great grandfather of Oliver St. John born circa 1398, was still alive in 1395 to marry Isabel, born circa 1374, widow of John Paveley, Jr. and that he (John St. John) was still
Matter submitted to the jury.
Cheers,
BobYou seem to fail to recognize you pompous bombast, that there are *two* distinctly different possible descents in this line.
You addressed this point not one whit.
On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 12:33:41 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:Bedfordshire are wrong about the generation where John St. John who married Isabel belong.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 9:39:59 PM UTC-8, Robert Allen wrote:
In response to wjhons multiple messages posted today They are destructive, not constructive, abusive and insulting. You just know you are right and are unwilling to study the evidence and the time line to see you (wjhons) and the 1566 Vistiation of
St. John and Isabel, his wife, formerly the wife of John Paveley, Jr., deceased. Here is the British History Online link to the Inquisition P. M. (you have to scroll down the page to find it). https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol20/The 1414 Inquisition Post Mortem for Joan (Sturry) Paveley shows that the manor of Paulerspury was in the Paveley family until the trustee of John Paveley the elder deed the manor to Joan Paveley, his widow, for her life with the remainder to John
I hope we can agree that Oliver St. John who married Margaret Beauchamp was born between 1395 and 1400 and died in 1447. I can cite a lot of references for this, but at this point suffice to say Douglas Richardson, ""Magna Carta Ancestry", page 714.
St. John, father of Oliver St. John who married Elizabeth de la Bere was born about 1325 (I think he was a lot older).So, you (wjhons) is saying that Isabel, who married 2nd John St. John was the great grandfather of Oliver St. John who was born between 1395 and 1400. Douglas Richardson says born about 1398.
We know from the Arundel deeds at the Cornwall records office, that John St. John, son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere was born by 1373.
As per the 1414 I.P.M. of Joan (Sturry) Paveley we know that a John St. John who married Isabel, widow of John Paveley, Jr., married her circa 1395.
So, if John St. John son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere was an infant in 1373 (he could be older), that means that Oliver St. John, husband of Elizabeth de la Bere was born no later than about 1350 (I think he was a lot older) and John
circa 1398, died 1437, who married Margaret Beauchamp, and the St. John of the Bletsoe pedigree in the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire is wrong as to what generation this couple (john St. John who married Isabel) is placed.So here are the choices.
My contention is that John St. John, son of Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere, born circa (not after) 1373 married Isabel about 1395, widow of John Paveley, Jr. Isabel was born circa 1374, and they were the parent of Oliver St. John, born
living in 1414, because the 1566 Visitation of Bedfordshire has to be right as to the generation this couple is placed. But wait, that would mean the Oliver St. John (who married Elizabeth de la Bere) was born no earlier than circa 1420 and his grandsonWjohns contention is that John St. John, born circa 1325 (or earlier), great grandfather of Oliver St. John born circa 1398, was still alive in 1395 to marry Isabel, born circa 1374, widow of John Paveley, Jr. and that he (John St. John) was still
Matter submitted to the jury.
Cheers,
Kindly STFU. You have added nothing to this thread, and, for some time, very little to this site.BobYou seem to fail to recognize you pompous bombast, that there are *two* distinctly different possible descents in this line.
You addressed this point not one whit.
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
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