Twelve years ago, I summarized my work on the 1633 Weston pedigree by the College of Arms here https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/QozzNrcLPPY/m/7kkDUgcx-f8JB0BL5B6YN5/. We not only present the evidence that we found so many years ago -- and more, we also share images of the manuscript documentation, thanks to permission by the British Library.
. I quickly concluded that a formal presentation was needed, drafted an article, and then had to put that work on hold due to other commitments.
Now that I am retired, my wife and I have published our research in a new book entitled Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms. You can find it in multiple formats here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/
We would be happy to discuss our work with anyone directly. Our contact information is in the About Us section of the book.
Best,
Shawn Potter
I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.
I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.
it is unlikely that a single family would include three children (two living at the same time) all bearing the same nameI don't know if there was a previous, deceased Richard in the family but Kirkburton PRs record a baptism in 1744 of two Richards (Storth IIRC)
On 01/12/2022 07:13, Shawn Potter wrote:
it is unlikely that a single family would include three children (two living at the same time) all bearing the same nameI don't know if there was a previous, deceased Richard in the family but Kirkburton PRs record a baptism in 1744 of two Richards (Storth IIRC)
"they being twindles".
On 01/12/2022 07:13, Shawn Potter wrote:
it is unlikely that a single family would include three children (two living at the same time) all bearing the same nameI don't know if there was a previous, deceased Richard in the family but Kirkburton PRs record a baptism in 1744 of two Richards (Storth IIRC)
"they being twindles".
Twelve years ago, I summarized my work on the 1633 Weston pedigree by the College of Arms here https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/QozzNrcLPPY/m/7kkDUgcx-f8JB0BL5B6YN5/. We not only present the evidence that we found so many years ago -- and more, we also share images of the manuscript documentation, thanks to permission by the British Library.
. I quickly concluded that a formal presentation was needed, drafted an article, and then had to put that work on hold due to other commitments.
Now that I am retired, my wife and I have published our research in a new book entitled Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms. You can find it in multiple formats here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/
We would be happy to discuss our work with anyone directly. Our contact information is in the About Us section of the book.
Best,
Shawn Potter
This leads me to believe that the impaled Neville arms displayed on the Church Wall Memorial are a later embellishment since these arms are symmetrical to the impaled Ridgeway arms that would have been added after the marriage of Sir Simon Weston'sdaughter to the 2nd Earl Londonderry (possibly around 1619), but before the Weston pedigree was published in 1633 (with this memorial examined/sketched by the heralds). However, it is also true that we have no written record of these impaled Neville arms
Again, thank you for all your work.
Andrew
Also of note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. And this website contains an image of a stained glass window at St. Andrews’ Church at Weston Park, Staffordshire,which depicts Hugo de Weston – ancestor of the Westons of Rugeley and Lichfield – including his arms argent an eagle displayed sable. https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~fordingtondorset/genealogy/Files/JohnBall1574.html
A faithful sketch of this stained glass window is including in all three copies of the Weston pedigree cited in our book.mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, there appears to be no reason for someone to engage in a later embellishment. And, as you
So, the form of Weston arms in the Neville arms impaling Weston arms on the Church Wall Monument does not suggest a later embellishment. Furthermore, considering the numerous contemporary records that support the Weston pedigree statement that the
Shawn
On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 1:41:15 PM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:daughter to the 2nd Earl Londonderry (possibly around 1619), but before the Weston pedigree was published in 1633 (with this memorial examined/sketched by the heralds). However, it is also true that we have no written record of these impaled Neville arms
This leads me to believe that the impaled Neville arms displayed on the Church Wall Memorial are a later embellishment since these arms are symmetrical to the impaled Ridgeway arms that would have been added after the marriage of Sir Simon Weston's
Hockmore family.Again, thank you for all your work.
AndrewHi Andrew,
Thank you for your kind words about our work. We appreciate your nice review; and we are glad that Dr. John Weston’s letter which names his near relatives, along with other contemporary documents in our book, were useful in your research on the
We do not agree with the suggestion that the Neville arms impaling Weston arms on the Church Wall Monument is a later embellishment. You are correct that various members of the Weston family of Staffordshire bore arms consisting of ermine on a chiefazure five bezants. However, they also bore, from earliest times, arms consisting of argent an eagle displayed sable. In some instances these two forms of Weston arms were displayed together and in other instances one or the other was displayed singly.
For example, see Stebbing Shaw’s 1801 description of the Weston arms on another Church Wall Monument, in this case memorializing John Weston of Lichfield’s nephew, one-time-removed, Richard Weston of Rugeley, who died 29 Mar 1613. Shaw writes: “In the same chapel on the North wall, is a monument of white marble, at the top having the arms of Weston quarterly 1 and 4, viz. ‘Or. a spread eagle, Sable and label of three points.’ 2d. ‘Ermine on a chief Az. 5 bezants.’ 3d. The arms of Ford
Furthermore, this Richard Weston of Rugeley’s son, Ralph Weston of Rugeley, who died before his father on 16 Jul 1605, bore arms containing argent an eagle displayed sable and ermine on a chief azure five bezants. For a discussion, and image of asketch, of this monument see our book pages 29-30.
Other Rugeley and Lichfield Westons during this era also bore both arms (argent an eagle displayed sable and ermine on a chief azure five bezants). See the arms of Richard Weston, Knt., 1st Earl of Portland; James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer;and Richard Weston, Knt., of Rugeley, Baron of the Exchequer, in all three copies of the Weston pedigree cited in our book.
Also of note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. And this website contains an image of a stained glass window at St. Andrews’ Church at Weston Park, Staffordshire,which depicts Hugo de Weston – ancestor of the Westons of Rugeley and Lichfield – including his arms argent an eagle displayed sable. https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~fordingtondorset/genealogy/Files/JohnBall1574.html
A faithful sketch of this stained glass window is including in all three copies of the Weston pedigree cited in our book.mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, there appears to be no reason for someone to engage in a later embellishment. And, as you
So, the form of Weston arms in the Neville arms impaling Weston arms on the Church Wall Monument does not suggest a later embellishment. Furthermore, considering the numerous contemporary records that support the Weston pedigree statement that the
Shawn
I completely agree with you that "eagle displayed sable" was associated with the Weston family since at least Sir Hamo de Weston (d.1189); it'd be great to understand (if that's even possible) which family branches adopted which arms....
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 11:08:22 AM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:in my earlier note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. These seals, with their arms, illustrate that the Weston families of Rugeley and Lichfield were entitled to, and
I completely agree with you that "eagle displayed sable" was associated with the Weston family since at least Sir Hamo de Weston (d.1189); it'd be great to understand (if that's even possible) which family branches adopted which arms....
Hi Andrew,
Thank you again for your kind words and your good questions and comments. My wife and I are grateful to you.
To once more summarize, as you mentioned, your source, on page 508, notes: “The earliest armorial bearings of the Westons of Weston-under-Lyzard was an eagle displayed, and seals prove that this eagle was frequently regardant.” And, as I mentioned
In light of this, one wonders how Waters could have written: “[Justice Weston] bore Ermine, on a chief azure five bezants, with a martlet for difference…. They are wholly different from the arms of the Westons of Rugeley, which were Or, an eagledisplayed regardant sable; but it is significant that when the pedigree of 1632 was compiled, Lord Weston assumed the coat of the eagle, and in the same year Segar granted both coats to Richard Weston of Rugeley and his cousins at Lichfield.” See
For those who want to know more about the Weston pedigree controversy, we address the assertion of fabrication by Waters – and examine Weston pedigree documentation as well as independent contemporary records – in our book Weston PedigreeReconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
By the way, final resolution of this controversy should be of special interest to the estimated five million Americans who trace their ancestries to Weston family immigrants Jeremy Clarke and Frances Latham of Newport, Rhode Island; Elizabeth Cooke andRev. William Walton of Marblehead, Massachusetts; and Stephen Terry and Jane Hardey of Dorchester, Massachusetts.
Shawn
Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here ....
And if so, does someone have a specific reference to show this Catherine as a daughter of that John ?
In your above Susanah Dyott, should be Susannah (or Susan) CRESSWELL
John Dyott by his wife Catherine Weston were the parents of Joan who died exactly 19 Oct 1590
Burke's Landed Gentry, calls this Catherine daughter of John Weston of Lichfield
I do have such a person in my database as the father of at least six children, I don't have a Catherine among those
But could it be the same man who married Cecily Neville ?
And if so, does someone have a specific reference to show this Catherine as a daughter of that John ?
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 6:45:20 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
In your above Susanah Dyott, should be Susannah (or Susan) CRESSWELL
John Dyott by his wife Catherine Weston were the parents of Joan who died exactly 19 Oct 1590
Burke's Landed Gentry, calls this Catherine daughter of John Weston of Lichfield
I do have such a person in my database as the father of at least six children, I don't have a Catherine among thoseHi Will,
But could it be the same man who married Cecily Neville ?
And if so, does someone have a specific reference to show this Catherine as a daughter of that John ?
You're right, it should logically read Susannah Cresswell, that was a typo on my part.
Catherine Weston/Dyott is found in the Weston pedigree as a daughter of John of Lichfield; additionally, Joan Dyott is specifically mentioned as wife of Richard Cresswell. Impaled Dyott and Cresswell arms are present as well.
Shawn writes in his Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms book:
"The Weston pedigree shows Cecily Neville to be the mother of all John Weston’s children"
"For the parents of Catherine Weston in a genealogical tree see Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633"
Additional sources are cited for Catherine Weston in her Genealogical Summary part of the book.
Lastly, these pedigrees also show Catherine Weston/Dyott as daughter of John of Lichfield:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=gfwcAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA118&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&d&pg=PA232&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA136-IA4&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Dyott_s_Diary_1781_1845/U-9MAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT1&printsec=frontcover
All the best,
Andrew
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 4:30:05 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 6:45:20 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
In your above Susanah Dyott, should be Susannah (or Susan) CRESSWELL
John Dyott by his wife Catherine Weston were the parents of Joan who died exactly 19 Oct 1590
Burke's Landed Gentry, calls this Catherine daughter of John Weston of Lichfield
I do have such a person in my database as the father of at least six children, I don't have a Catherine among thoseHi Will,
But could it be the same man who married Cecily Neville ?
And if so, does someone have a specific reference to show this Catherine as a daughter of that John ?
You're right, it should logically read Susannah Cresswell, that was a typo on my part.
Catherine Weston/Dyott is found in the Weston pedigree as a daughter of John of Lichfield; additionally, Joan Dyott is specifically mentioned as wife of Richard Cresswell. Impaled Dyott and Cresswell arms are present as well.
Shawn writes in his Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms book:
"The Weston pedigree shows Cecily Neville to be the mother of all John Weston’s children"
"For the parents of Catherine Weston in a genealogical tree see Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633"
Additional sources are cited for Catherine Weston in her Genealogical Summary part of the book.
Lastly, these pedigrees also show Catherine Weston/Dyott as daughter of John of Lichfield:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=gfwcAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA118&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&d&pg=PA232&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA136-IA4&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Dyott_s_Diary_1781_1845/U-9MAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT1&printsec=frontcover
All the best,
AndrewThanks for that
However my question isn't whether or not she is called daughter of John Weston of Lichfield
But whether it was this particular John Weston of Lichfield
The one who married Cecily Neville
Knowing that there is more than one man called John Weston of Lichfield
I know that many sources follow a certain specific statement made but we also have to reconcile
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 4:30:05 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 6:45:20 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
In your above Susanah Dyott, should be Susannah (or Susan) CRESSWELL
John Dyott by his wife Catherine Weston were the parents of Joan who died exactly 19 Oct 1590
Burke's Landed Gentry, calls this Catherine daughter of John Weston of Lichfield
I do have such a person in my database as the father of at least six children, I don't have a Catherine among thoseHi Will,
But could it be the same man who married Cecily Neville ?
And if so, does someone have a specific reference to show this Catherine as a daughter of that John ?
You're right, it should logically read Susannah Cresswell, that was a typo on my part.
Catherine Weston/Dyott is found in the Weston pedigree as a daughter of John of Lichfield; additionally, Joan Dyott is specifically mentioned as wife of Richard Cresswell. Impaled Dyott and Cresswell arms are present as well.
Shawn writes in his Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms book:
"The Weston pedigree shows Cecily Neville to be the mother of all John Weston’s children"
"For the parents of Catherine Weston in a genealogical tree see Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633"
Additional sources are cited for Catherine Weston in her Genealogical Summary part of the book.
Lastly, these pedigrees also show Catherine Weston/Dyott as daughter of John of Lichfield:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=gfwcAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA118&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&d&pg=PA232&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA136-IA4&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Dyott_s_Diary_1781_1845/U-9MAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT1&printsec=frontcover
All the best,
AndrewThanks for that
However my question isn't whether or not she is called daughter of John Weston of Lichfield
But whether it was this particular John Weston of Lichfield
The one who married Cecily Neville
Knowing that there is more than one man called John Weston of Lichfield
Perhaps Shawn could confirm the parents at the end of the branch found in Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 15?
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 9:58:50 PM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:UK.
Perhaps Shawn could confirm the parents at the end of the branch found in Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 15?Hi Andrew,
As you mentioned, on page 54 of our book, we illustrate Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 25 verso, The British Library Manuscript Department, Boston Spa, Wetherby, West Yorkshire,
As you requested, we looked at folio 25 recto of the above manuscript, and note that the line continues for one more generation below Antonius Dyot to his son “Richardus Dyot Armiger filius et hares duxit in uxorem Dorotheam filiae et her. RichiDoington.” But this copy of the Weston pedigree does not continue the line of Joan Dyott and her husband, Richard Creswell, on folio 25 recto.
However, the second copy of the Weston Pedigree, Illuminated Genealogy of the Family of Weston of Weston-under-Lizard, co. Stafford, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 74251A, folio 19 recto, The British Library Manuscript Department, Boston Spa, Wetherby, WestYorkshire, UK, does continue the line of Joan Dyott and her husband, Richard Creswell, for another generation to – “Suzana Cresswell nupta 1o Edwardo Elwes de London Armigero demde renupta Johi Curzon militi.”
I hope this helps.
Shawn
On that note, I think this example serves to illustrate the thoroughness, scope and accuracy of the authors of the pedigree, since they accurately recorded the marriages of Catherine Weston's daughter and granddaughter - a less illustrious maternalline. Dr. John Weston didn't specify Suzana's name, nor could he recall the name of Edward Elwes. Suzana's second marriage to Sir John Curzon created confusion in such usually relatively credible sources (not to mention various other pedigrees) as Vivan'
"In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or ThomasWeston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...
"In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or ThomasWeston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...
...Or an eagle displayed sable ; 2. Or a chief azure ; 3. Ermine on a chief azure three bezants; 4. Azure six lioncels or crowned gules.
William Weston, of Prested Hall, co. Essex, and of London, Mercer, was living 5 Hy. viij. The Essex Westons seem to have been the descendants of John Weston of Rugeley, temp. ... "
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Shropshire_Archaeolo/RHpHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22william+weston%22+prested&pg=RA1-PA414&printsec=frontcover
On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 2:57:22 PM UTC-8, Johnny Brananas wrote:Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...
"In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas
...Or an eagle displayed sable ; 2. Or a chief azure ; 3. Ermine on a chief azure three bezants; 4. Azure six lioncels or crowned gules.
William Weston, of Prested Hall, co. Essex, and of London, Mercer, was living 5 Hy. viij. The Essex Westons seem to have been the descendants of John Weston of Rugeley, temp. ... "
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Shropshire_Archaeolo/RHpHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22william+weston%22+prested&pg=RA1-PA414&printsec=frontcoverThis James Weston was James /Weston/ of St John's Hospital in Lichfield, co Staf
Will dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589 (CPC 48 Leicester)
His wife Margery /Lowe/ d 1587
They also had an eldest son
Richard /Weston/ of the Inner Temple, London 1577; Gent 1577
See
Thomas Harwood, The History and Antiquities of the Church and City of Litchfield (Glocester: Printed for Cadell and Davies, London, 1806),
497. “‘Concessio liberae Scholae Grammaticalis Lichfeildensts. James Weston, of the City of Lichfield, Gent. Michael Lowe, of Tymore, in
the County of Stafford, Gent, John Chatterton, of the City of
Lichfield, Gent, enfeoffe and grant to Zachary Babington, John
Bagshawe, Simon Biddull, Richard Otteley, Philip Streethay, and Thomas Ilsley, of the City of Lichfield, Gentlemen; and to Richard Weston, of
the Inner Temple, London, Gent. Son of the aforesaid James Weston,
John Lowe, mercer, Michael Allen and Richard Bardell, Humfrey
Chaterton of Norton, in the County of Stafford, and Humfrey Lowe,
Nephew of the aforesaid Michael Lowe; a tenement, or brick-house, now
used as a School, called the New School, also a certain Close, and
Garden, upon parcel of which the said House is erected, in St. John's Street, to have and to hold the singular premises to the above
Feoffees and their Assigns, for ever, according to the intentions of a Schedule annexed, &c. In testimony of which, the Bailiffs on the one
part, and the Feoffees on the other, put their Seals, dated 27 April,
Anno Regni Elizab. Vicessimo nono.’ 1577. … Signed, J. Weston, Michael Lowe, John Chaterton.” (Footnote: Ashmol. MSS. fol. 855, p.
91. ...... i)
On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 3:50:35 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...
On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 2:57:22 PM UTC-8, Johnny Brananas wrote:
"In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas
...Or an eagle displayed sable ; 2. Or a chief azure ; 3. Ermine on a chief azure three bezants; 4. Azure six lioncels or crowned gules.
William Weston, of Prested Hall, co. Essex, and of London, Mercer, was living 5 Hy. viij. The Essex Westons seem to have been the descendants of John Weston of Rugeley, temp. ... "
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Shropshire_Archaeolo/RHpHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22william+weston%22+prested&pg=RA1-PA414&printsec=frontcoverThis James Weston was James /Weston/ of St John's Hospital in Lichfield, co Staf
Will dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589 (CPC 48 Leicester)
His wife Margery /Lowe/ d 1587
They also had an eldest son
Richard /Weston/ of the Inner Temple, London 1577; Gent 1577
See
Thomas Harwood, The History and Antiquities of the Church and City of Litchfield (Glocester: Printed for Cadell and Davies, London, 1806),Sir Symon Weston
497. “‘Concessio liberae Scholae Grammaticalis Lichfeildensts. James Weston, of the City of Lichfield, Gent. Michael Lowe, of Tymore, in
the County of Stafford, Gent, John Chatterton, of the City of
Lichfield, Gent, enfeoffe and grant to Zachary Babington, John
Bagshawe, Simon Biddull, Richard Otteley, Philip Streethay, and Thomas Ilsley, of the City of Lichfield, Gentlemen; and to Richard Weston, of
the Inner Temple, London, Gent. Son of the aforesaid James Weston,
John Lowe, mercer, Michael Allen and Richard Bardell, Humfrey
Chaterton of Norton, in the County of Stafford, and Humfrey Lowe,
Nephew of the aforesaid Michael Lowe; a tenement, or brick-house, now
used as a School, called the New School, also a certain Close, and
Garden, upon parcel of which the said House is erected, in St. John's Street, to have and to hold the singular premises to the above
Feoffees and their Assigns, for ever, according to the intentions of a Schedule annexed, &c. In testimony of which, the Bailiffs on the one
part, and the Feoffees on the other, put their Seals, dated 27 April,
Anno Regni Elizab. Vicessimo nono.’ 1577. … Signed, J. Weston, Michael Lowe, John Chaterton.” (Footnote: Ashmol. MSS. fol. 855, p.
91. ...... i)
Symon /Weston/ of Lichfield, co Staf -1598-; esq -1598-; Knt; MP 1624-6; W married Mary Lloyd and had a daughter and heiress Elizabeth
who marreid
Robert Ridgway, Knt 1608; 2nd Earl of /Londonderry/ 1631-
Which adds an E3 descent for these Earls of Londonderry which I had not previously had
The will of this James Weston is abstracted here https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover
Why did he do it?College of Arms in 1633 was a fabrication. Was Waters merely mistaken about every one of his five arguments in support of his claim? If so, one wonders how a genealogist with his reputation could have made such a series of mistakes. Some of his
My wife and I demonstrate in Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/) that Robert Edmond Chester Waters falsely claimed that the Weston pedigree published by the
However, it is interesting to note that Waters first, to our knowledge, alleged that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication in 1872, writing under the anagram TEWARS (see footnote 2 in our chapter entitled Rise of Skepticism). This was six years beforehe made his allegation, writing in true name, in Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley.
Perhaps equally vexing for us is the question, why did so many people believe his assertions for so many years, until we published our discoveries on soc.genealogy.medieval in 2011, and more recently in our book. It seems likely to us that most peoplewere unable to examine the Weston pedigree and related contemporary records for themselves and simply trusted the claims by Waters. Still, one wonders.
Shawn
See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:03:04 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:B0BL5B6YN5/. We not only present the evidence that we found so many years ago -- and more, we also share images of the manuscript documentation, thanks to permission by the British Library.
Twelve years ago, I summarized my work on the 1633 Weston pedigree by the College of Arms here https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/QozzNrcLPPY/m/7kkDUgcx-f8J
. I quickly concluded that a formal presentation was needed, drafted an article, and then had to put that work on hold due to other commitments.
Now that I am retired, my wife and I have published our research in a new book entitled Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms. You can find it in multiple formats here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/
We would be happy to discuss our work with anyone directly. Our contact information is in the About Us section of the book.
Best,I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.
Shawn Potter
Just by way of a reminder ...
Just by way of a reminder ... https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw
On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:15:49 AM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why have so many people accepted and repeated his meritless arguments? The truth cannot be found by throwing dust in the air, citing secret correspondents, or making personal attacks; but it is available to
Just by way of a reminder ... https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw
Hi Leslie,
Please see my response on 14 Mar 2014 at the bottom of your cited chain. With respect to the Kettle document, see my note on 1 Dec 2022 in this chain. I am reminded of my questions on 4 and 7 Dec 2022 in this chain. Why did Waters make such an
Shawn
There could be more to be found on the Prested, Essex family of the Westons:
On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 8:35:49 AM UTC-5, shp...@gmail.com wrote:unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why have so many people accepted and repeated his meritless arguments? The truth cannot be found by throwing dust in the air, citing secret correspondents, or making personal attacks; but it is available to
On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:15:49 AM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:
Just by way of a reminder ... https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw
Hi Leslie,
Please see my response on 14 Mar 2014 at the bottom of your cited chain. With respect to the Kettle document, see my note on 1 Dec 2022 in this chain. I am reminded of my questions on 4 and 7 Dec 2022 in this chain. Why did Waters make such an
ShawnThere could be more to be found on the Prested, Essex family of the Westons:
--John, son and heir of Richard Weston.
--Elizabeth Marler, previously the wife of Richard Weston, and John Carter, executors of Thomas Marler.
--The profits of the manor of Prested [Essex].
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/bB4RAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22john+carter%22+%22thomas+marler%22+prested&pg=PA35&printsec=frontcover
Presumably this Richard was the one who died in 1541, with a wife Elizabeth and son John:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/-AEOby-E5U0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22richard+weston%22+prested&pg=PA135&printsec=frontcover
In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work ofStanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.
28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____
23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium
20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina
19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex
I have no expertise in this area, but feel it is worth pointing out that this is not a proven descent, having several speculative/uncertain links that merit elaboration, lest some naive reader misinterpret its representation without qualification hereas reflecting certainty.
Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here (and I am reading through the long history of your Pedigree considerations). And also Thanks to Joe Cochoit on WikiTree for following your lead and giving a thumbs up to the CeciliaNeville-John Weston connection.
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:01:07 PM UTC-5, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:Neville-John Weston connection.
Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here (and I am reading through the long history of your Pedigree considerations). And also Thanks to Joe Cochoit on WikiTree for following your lead and giving a thumbs up to the Cecilia
Paul,
My wife and I join you in thanking Joe for his longtime support for our work. We have the highest regard for his scholarship, professionalism, and determined pursuit of the truth.
Shawn
On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 1:33:48 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.
On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:23:02 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of
28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II MamikonianSmbat VII was murdered by the Abbasids 775
27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____
23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium
20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina 19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex
17. Mstislav I, Grand Duke of Kiev = Lubova Dmitrovna
16. Euphrosyne Mstislavna = Gesa II, King of Hungary
15. Bela III, King of Hungary = Agnes of Antioch
14. Andrew II, King of Hungary = Gertrude von Meran
13. Bela IV, King of Hungary = Maria Laskarina
12. Stephen V, King of Hungary = Elizabeth of Cumans
11. Maria of Hungary = Charles II, King of Naples
10. Margaret d’Anjou = Charles, Comte de Valois
I don't know why you call his son Ashot the "Constable" of Armenia since this is something like a police function
He was the Prince, or Governor of Armenia, depending on how you view his reign
His by-name was "the Carnivorous" which is a striking name that should be remembered
his son Bagrat was the Grand Ishkan of Taron
he was *living in 851 but we really, no matter what trees exist online, had almost *NO* idea of the years he lived
Not even within several decades
Same with his son Tornik
So suggesting that we can assign some Apuganum to even within a century for their life-dates is the rankest speculation based on *nothing* whatsoever. I repeat there are exactly *zero* sources, which give us this descent in this fashion.
Not one.
... So suggesting that we can assign some Apuganum to even within a century for their life-dates is the rankest speculation based on *nothing* whatsoever. I repeat there are exactly *zero* sources, which give us this descent in this fashion. Not one.
On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:23:02 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.
See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of
28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____
23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium
20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina
19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex
17. Mstislav I, Grand Duke of Kiev = Lubova Dmitrovna
16. Euphrosyne Mstislavna = Gesa II, King of Hungary
15. Bela III, King of Hungary = Agnes of Antioch
14. Andrew II, King of Hungary = Gertrude von Meran
13. Bela IV, King of Hungary = Maria Laskarina
12. Stephen V, King of Hungary = Elizabeth of Cumans
11. Maria of Hungary = Charles II, King of Naples
10. Margaret d’Anjou = Charles, Comte de Valois
Thank you for including our description of this line as a “possible” gateway to antiquity, and our citation of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne as the author of the article. As you know, proposed gateways to antiquity are controversial, but of greatinterest, which is why we included the line, with citations, in the appendices.
Yes, I do know, and for exactly that reason it is worthwhile, when presenting such a line, to explicitly distinguish documented connections from speculated ones. Too many sloppy people lifting lines without reading any accompanying discussion orcitations to leave the specific problematic connections uncommented upon. (I say this having been burned several times, posting speculative material only to find it reproduced in internet trees as if it was gospel. Some of this is going to happen anyhow,
Of course, your book goes into much more detail than I can present on a webpage, and I would encourage anyone truly interested to read it for themselves.
On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 8:42:15 PM UTC-5, Joe wrote:illustrate – in accordance with a license from the British Library – 22 pages of the Weston pedigree documentation; and assess a variety of independent contemporary records that confirm the two statements singled out by Waters for criticism – that
Of course, your book goes into much more detail than I can present on a webpage, and I would encourage anyone truly interested to read it for themselves.Thank you again, Joe, for your continued support. My wife and I agree with your advice that those who want to understand the Weston pedigree controversy should read our book. We present important discoveries that have never been discussed here;
Shawn
I wonder if it is possible the Justice and Chancellor were brothers, but sons of a lady who was not a Neville?
I share your concern about people lifting lines without reading accompanying discussion or citations; and I see this challenge as an uphill battle in the age of the internet. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you wrote: “without qualificationhere as reflecting certainty.”
What I am getting at is that the same people who are going to lift a line are likely not to read all of the boring discussion accompanying it to even know there are issues.
Was Waters merely mistaken about every one of his five arguments in support of his claim?
And Brad Verity made several comments:ancestry for Alice Weston Ball. "
"Shawn and Joe need Cecily Neville to have been the wife of John Weston of Lichfield in order to give John Weston's daughter Alice, and her descendants, ancestors which trace back to Edward III and earlier monarchs. Otherwise, there is no royal
"It's not our fault you aren't happy with the result: that no Cecily Neville, wife of John Weston of Lichfield, can be found in any records from the early 1500s, except for the one deed allegedly from 1526, that is no longer where the 1632 Westonpedigree stated it had been (Chillingham in Staffordshire). "
The Weston pedigree presents a compelling reminder that it is important to always assess the work of others, even respected experts, and examine contemporary documentation.
TERRY DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND[snip]
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield
On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 10:15:49 PM UTC-8, Leslie Mahler wrote:ancestry for Alice Weston Ball. "
And Brad Verity made several comments:
"Shawn and Joe need Cecily Neville to have been the wife of John Weston of Lichfield in order to give John Weston's daughter Alice, and her descendants, ancestors which trace back to Edward III and earlier monarchs. Otherwise, there is no royal
pedigree stated it had been (Chillingham in Staffordshire). ""It's not our fault you aren't happy with the result: that no Cecily Neville, wife of John Weston of Lichfield, can be found in any records from the early 1500s, except for the one deed allegedly from 1526, that is no longer where the 1632 Weston
Thank you, Leslie.It's in the Weston pedigree chart by Segar (on p60 of the book):
On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 5:23:01 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Weston pedigree presents a compelling reminder that it is important to always assess the work of others, even respected experts, and examine contemporary documentation.Agreed, Shawn.
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 2:31:28 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
TERRY DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND[snip]
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield
What is the contemporary documentation for Generation 8 above?
Thanks and Cheers, -----Brad
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 2:31:28 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
TERRY DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND[snip]
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield
What is the contemporary documentation for Generation 8 above?
Please see my response to JBrand’s good question in this chain earlier today at 12:13 PM. I say again, the best answer to your question is found in our book. Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms,https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
We present, discuss, and illustrate contemporary documents that identify the mother of Justice Weston, Chancellor Weston, and their siblings as Cecily Neville, wife of John Weston of Lichfield, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister ofRalph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, on pages 64-114.
Perhaps someone who has purchased it can summarize the multiple contemporary documents that you present, discuss and illustrate within your book.
What is the contemporary documentation for Generation 8 above?
Hi Brad,
Thank you for your comment, I was hoping to hear your opinion on the subject.
Joe Cochoit has provided a very useful summation of the arguments for and against Cecily Weston as the sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland in her Wikitree page. Joe has included the full text of the 1526 charter:
With the exception of the 1526 charter, it is my understanding there are no other contemporary documents specifically referring to Cecily Neville being the sister of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
The charter, in conjunction with the detailed, referenced pedigree and the Weston correspondence would have been more than sufficient proof for a spouse from a less noble family, but in this case, the obvious red flag is why would the sister of afuture Earl be married to a family of much lower station (although probably armigerous and wealthy), especially since, she would have been a valuable heiress should have her brother died.
We can only speculate on the answer, but Shawn's book discusses documented connections between the Westons of Lichfield and family of Isabel Booth, grandmother of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland, (via the Advowson and Prebend of Sawley), as well thefamily of the guardian of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland (via the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist from the Stafford family).
Additionally, I don't recall the outcome of the past discussion about the veracity of the 1526 charter (which is absolutely crucial to the Neville descent), but the heralds found the charter in possession of a descendant of one of the witnesses, AndrewGiffard. I think analyzing the original document through a forensic lens would certainly help reinforce its credibility, especially in light of combined circumstantial evidence collected by the heralds as part of their research.
Happy holidays to you and yours,
On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 5:47:30 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:future Earl be married to a family of much lower station (although probably armigerous and wealthy), especially since, she would have been a valuable heiress should have her brother died.
With the exception of the 1526 charter, it is my understanding there are no other contemporary documents specifically referring to Cecily Neville being the sister of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland.Thank you for this response to my specific question, Andrew.
The charter, in conjunction with the detailed, referenced pedigree and the Weston correspondence would have been more than sufficient proof for a spouse from a less noble family, but in this case, the obvious red flag is why would the sister of a
I'm going to put aside the argument as to whether or not a sister and potential co-heiress of the Earl of Westmorland would be married to a local Staffordshire gentry family. I know I made the case against it some years back, but it remains speculativeat this point. The 4th Earl's known sister and potential co-heiress Isabel Neville was married as a second wife to a prominent Yorkshire gentryman Sir Robert Plumpton. Their maternal half-sister Elizabeth Darcy was married to another prominent Yorkshire
Joe Cochoit has provided a very useful summation of the arguments for and against Cecily Weston as the sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland in her Wikitree page. Joe has included the full text of the 1526 charter:with all my lands and tenements, meadows, grazings and pastures, rents, reversions and services with all and singular their appurtenances belonging to the aforementioned messuage, and also the whole of my meadow called Hams in Linhurst, to have and to
"The full text of the 1526 charter (BM Add MS 18667, fol. 101), translated, reads as follows:
[fo. 101 recto] Original at Chillington
"Know all men, present and future, that I, John Weston of Rugeley the elder, gent., have given, granted and in this my present charter have confirmed to John Giffard, knt., John Knightley, esq., and John Wolsley, gent., all my messuage in Lichfield,
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston#1526_Charter_.28translation.29son John Weston the younger, and for John the younger's wife Cecily. It has all the appearance of a marriage settlement.
I'm confused as to who translated this charter.
Let's assume for the moment for argument's sake that it is genuine. What is the purpose? John Weston the elder is transferring his chief property, and all of his other holdings in Lichfield, to three feoffees to hold those properties for the use of his
So it's very helpful to compare this to the marriage settlement of Sir Robert Plumpton and Isabel Neville. Thomas Stapleton, in his 'Plumpton Letters', does not unfortunately include a full transcription of the settlement, but he does abstract from it [pg. 197 note a]: "Dame Isabel Plumpton, their daughter, was married to Sir Robert Plumpton, of Plumpton, com. Ebor kt. about 18 Sep. 21 Hen. VII. 1505, for by deed of that date, the latter conveyed to Sir William Sand, kt. (afterwards the first Lord
https://archive.org/details/plumptoncorrespo04plumuoft/page/197/mode/2uplicence of their younger half sister Elizabeth Darcy to Marmaduke Constable was in 1514:
When we compare the Weston and the Plumpton deeds, supposedly the marriage settlements of two Neville sisters, a couple points stand out:
1) The Weston deed of 1526 is a full twenty-one years after the Plumpton deed of 1505. Why would the marriages of two sisters, both of whom would have to have been born between 1491 and 1498, be a full twenty years apart? Especially when the marriage
"1514, April 26. Licence for Marmaduke, son and heir of Sir Robert Constable, ant. par. Hotham, and Elizabeth Darcy of Templehurst par. Birkin, to be married in the chapel within the manor-house of Templehurst. Banns once."Plumpton deed is Isabel (Neville) Plumpton's maternal uncle Sir William (later 1st Lord) Sandys. He was still living in 1526.
https://archive.org/details/publicationssur05socigoog/page/n375/mode/2up
2) Why is John Weston's wife Cecily specifically identified in the 1526 deed as "sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland"? There is no such identification of Isabel wife of Sir Robert Plumpton in the 1505 marriage settlement.
3) Why are there no feoffees in the 1526 Weston deed from the Neville, Darcy or Sandys families, to safeguard the interests of John Weston of Lichfield's wife Cecily, if she was a near relation to them? Notice that the first-named feoffee in the 1505
family of the guardian of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland (via the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist from the Stafford family).We can only speculate on the answer, but Shawn's book discusses documented connections between the Westons of Lichfield and family of Isabel Booth, grandmother of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland, (via the Advowson and Prebend of Sawley), as well the
Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham, would only have had the guardianship of the 4th Earl of Westmorland. Any sisters would have remained in the care of their mother Edith (Sandys), Lady Neville, and her second husband Sir Thomas (later Lord) Darcy.
It's worth noting that Isabel Plumpton is assumed to be the daughter of Edith (Sandys) Lady Neville because in a letter written by Lady Edith to Lady Plumpton, she states, "Written in haste by the hand of your mother". Clearly Isabel Plumpton was namedfor her paternal grandmother Isabel (Booth), Countess of Westmorland. But the earliest Isabel could have been born is 1491, making her only 14 or 15 when she married the 52-year-old widower Sir Robert Plumpton in 1505. In a letter she wrote to Sir Robert
Andrew Giffard. I think analyzing the original document through a forensic lens would certainly help reinforce its credibility, especially in light of combined circumstantial evidence collected by the heralds as part of their research.Additionally, I don't recall the outcome of the past discussion about the veracity of the 1526 charter (which is absolutely crucial to the Neville descent), but the heralds found the charter in possession of a descendant of one of the witnesses,
Given that the original charter from 1526 cannot be located, and that this charter is the sole document from the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield that identifies his wife as sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, can we be certain thatthe herald who examined it didn't mis-transcribe it? If Richard Weston, 1st Earl of Portland, was insisting in 1630-32 when this pedigree was being created, that he was descended from the Neville Earls of Westmorland, how easy would it have been for the
I'm glad Shawn and his wife have examined the Weston pedigree in detail as it has helped to sort out much about the Weston family. But when it comes to the purported identity of Cecily, wife of John Weston of Lichfield as a sister of the 4th Earl ofWestmorland, I remain as skeptical as Robert Edmond Chester Waters was in 1878: "Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or wills of the Nevilles, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story
https://archive.org/details/genealogicalmem01wategoog/page/n150/mode/2up
Happy holidays to you and yours,Thank you, and all the joy of the season to you.
Cheers, ----Brad
I'm glad Shawn and his wife have examined the Weston pedigree in detail as it has helped to sort out much about the Weston family. But when it comes to the purported identity of Cecily, wife of John Weston of Lichfield as a sister of the 4th Earl ofWestmorland, I remain as skeptical as Robert Edmond Chester Waters was in 1878: "Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or wills of the Nevilles, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story
You base your arguments on a series of assumptions that are unlikely to be true. In fact, in light of the evidence we provide in our book, we believe all your assumptions are mistaken.
So your comments, although clever, merely perpetuate misinformed mistakes of the past.
This is why I refer readers to Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
The approximate years of birth of Cecily’s children, which we discuss in the genealogical summary in our book, reveals that the 1526 Weston deed was not executed at the time of her marriage, but rather some 15 years later. One cannot know whatconsiderations determined the choice of feofees at that later date.
We identify Matthew Tompkins as the scholar we employed to translate the deed in our book. We subsequently gave Matthew permission to post the translation here. We present images of the deed along with his translation, and discuss its provenance in ourbook. Again, our book is the best source for information about the deed.
You are mistaken when you say the deed is the “sole document from the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield that identifies his wife as sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.”
So your speculation that the herald may have mistranslated it or, under coercion from the 1st Earl of Portland, inserted erroneous text is another instance of baseless speculation.
Reference your statement regarding the 3rd Duke of Buckingham, we present contemporary evidence in our book that John Weston of Lichfield held the lease of the Manor of St. John the Baptist Hospital from either Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham,guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the duke’s son, Henry Stafford, Lord Stafford, brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
John Weston of Lichfield’s son, Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, inherited the lease of the manor from his father, and Robert’s son John Weston, Doctor of Civil Law and Canon of Christ Church, University of Oxford, inherited the lease ofthe manor from his father. At the same time, James Weston of Lichfield, son of John Weston of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father, and Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father.
We address in our book your misperception that no one in 1632 would fact check the claim in the Weston pedigree that Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, was the mother of Justice Weston, Chancellor Weston, and theirsiblings. Your assumptions are surely mistaken.
We also include a letter in our book from Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, which states: “… my Grandfather Iohn Weston, who whilest he liued in England, liued in the Citty of Lichfeld, and had to wife Cecely, the daughter of Ralph Neuill that diedin the life tyme of the Earle of Westmorland his father.” Three witnesses to this letter later witnessed a codicil to Sir Simon’s will. We present images of this letter along with images of Sir Simon’s will, and discuss the same, in our book.
Finally, if you read our assessment of each one of Waters’ meritless claims about the Weston pedigree, I suspect you would not associate yourself with, and continue to repeat, his views.
This of course is speculation on your part. Though Waters directly quoting in 1878 from Segar's abstract of the 1526 deed in the Latin as it appears in the original 1632-33 pedigree, suggests that Waters did indeed examine the pedigree and itsevidences. At least the portion pertaining to John Weston of Lichfield and his wife Cecily.
On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 1:52:23 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:evidences. At least the portion pertaining to John Weston of Lichfield and his wife Cecily.
This of course is speculation on your part. Though Waters directly quoting in 1878 from Segar's abstract of the 1526 deed in the Latin as it appears in the original 1632-33 pedigree, suggests that Waters did indeed examine the pedigree and its
Hi Brad,how artful, bold assertions such as these merely perpetuate erroneous notions about the pedigree.
I appreciate your reluctance to comment, but the fact that you did illustrates my point. People are inclined to speculate about vexing questions such as the choice of feofees in a 16th century deed without examining the original documents. No matter
Sir Simon Weston addressed his letter to Richard Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, who was not a descendant of Cecily, and who was not the Earl of Portland. The provenance of Sir Simon’s letter and its witnesses both suggest that the letter isgenuine.
As to your suggestion that Sir Simon may have been mistaken, or was making a false statement at the urging of the Earl of Portland, when he named his grandmother, Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, why assume such an unlikelyevent. Of course, a novel idea like this would be necessary to continue the fiction that the pedigree is a fabrication; but why would anyone propose or believe such a baseless theory, if not for the meritless arguments by Waters? Waters did not mention
And Sir Simon's letter is not the only evidence that his grandmother was Cecily Neville. Again, I point those who want to learn more about documents that identify Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, as the mother of Justice Weston,Chancellor Weston, and their siblings to our book, pages 64-114.
Why Waters, writing 250 years later, accused the Earl of Portland of orchestrating a fabrication of the pedigree is a mystery. Perhaps Waters needed to name a culprit to advance his claim. That is surely speculation on my part; but Waters offered noevidence to support his slander against the earl. And why the public has generally believed Waters for 150 years is equally puzzling.
In the latter instance, I suspect people form fixed conclusions, without examining the records, simply because they want to believe Waters. “He is an authority; he said it; and I believe it.” However, I say, examine the original records.
When I suggested that Waters may not have examined the pedigree, I did so on the basis of his numerous erroneous claims about it. To understand how fabulously mistaken he was, you must read our analysis of his claims – or examine the records yourself.
Shawn
1) Why? Why was Cecily's material security delayed for such a long period of time? Both Edith Lady Neville and the 4th Earl were prominent at court. If Cecily was their daughter and sister, such a long delay in securing her interest is hard to explain.Well, if the 1526 marriage settlement-style deed is thought to have been educated fifteen years after the marriage, two questions arise.
On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 8:33:32 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:Westmorland, I remain as skeptical as Robert Edmond Chester Waters was in 1878: "Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or wills of the Nevilles, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story
I'm glad Shawn and his wife have examined the Weston pedigree in detail as it has helped to sort out much about the Weston family. But when it comes to the purported identity of Cecily, wife of John Weston of Lichfield as a sister of the 4th Earl of
Hi Brad,mistakes of the past. This is why I refer readers to Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
You base your arguments on a series of assumptions that are unlikely to be true. In fact, in light of the evidence we provide in our book, we believe all your assumptions are mistaken. So your comments, although clever, merely perpetuate misinformed
The approximate years of birth of Cecily’s children, which we discuss in the genealogical summary in our book, reveals that the 1526 Weston deed was not executed at the time of her marriage, but rather some 15 years later. One cannot know whatconsiderations determined the choice of feofees at that later date.
We identify Matthew Tompkins as the scholar we employed to translate the deed in our book. We subsequently gave Matthew permission to post the translation here. We present images of the deed along with his translation, and discuss its provenance in ourbook. Again, our book is the best source for information about the deed.
You are mistaken when you say the deed is the “sole document from the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield that identifies his wife as sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.” So your speculation that the herald may have mistranslated itor, under coercion from the 1st Earl of Portland, inserted erroneous text is another instance of baseless speculation.
Reference your statement regarding the 3rd Duke of Buckingham, we present contemporary evidence in our book that John Weston of Lichfield held the lease of the Manor of St. John the Baptist Hospital from either Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham,guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the duke’s son, Henry Stafford, Lord Stafford, brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
John Weston of Lichfield’s son, Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, inherited the lease of the manor from his father, and Robert’s son John Weston, Doctor of Civil Law and Canon of Christ Church, University of Oxford, inherited the lease ofthe manor from his father. At the same time, James Weston of Lichfield, son of John Weston of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father, and Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father.
My source was Andrew's post earlier in this thread: "With the exception of the 1526 charter, it is my understanding there are no other contemporary documents specifically referring to Cecily Neville being the sister of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland."within that time period?
"Contemporary" in this case, implies documents from the lifetime of John and Cecily Weston of Lichfield, so from the early to mid-sixteenth century (I do not have dates of death for either). Are there other documents identifying Cecily as a Neville
Given that the only piece of evidence written in the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield is a deed said to be from 1526, the original of which cannot now be located.The image of the deed in the book appears to be a copy made by the heralds and has a heading of "Originat apud Chillington" (Original at Chillington). I do not know if the original has been preserved, located or examined.
On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 1:52:23 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:evidences. At least the portion pertaining to John Weston of Lichfield and his wife Cecily.
This of course is speculation on your part. Though Waters directly quoting in 1878 from Segar's abstract of the 1526 deed in the Latin as it appears in the original 1632-33 pedigree, suggests that Waters did indeed examine the pedigree and its
Hi Brad,how artful, bold assertions such as these merely perpetuate erroneous notions about the pedigree.
I appreciate your reluctance to comment, but the fact that you did illustrates my point. People are inclined to speculate about vexing questions such as the choice of feofees in a 16th century deed without examining the original documents. No matter
Sir Simon Weston addressed his letter to Richard Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, who was not a descendant of Cecily, and who was not the Earl of Portland. The provenance of Sir Simon’s letter and its witnesses both suggest that the letter isgenuine.
As to your suggestion that Sir Simon may have been mistaken, or was making a false statement at the urging of the Earl of Portland, when he named his grandmother, Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, why assume such an unlikelyevent. Of course, a novel idea like this would be necessary to continue the fiction that the pedigree is a fabrication; but why would anyone propose or believe such a baseless theory, if not for the meritless arguments by Waters? Waters did not mention
And Sir Simon's letter is not the only evidence that his grandmother was Cecily Neville. Again, I point those who want to learn more about documents that identify Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, as the mother of Justice Weston,Chancellor Weston, and their siblings to our book, pages 64-114.
Why Waters, writing 250 years later, accused the Earl of Portland of orchestrating a fabrication of the pedigree is a mystery. Perhaps Waters needed to name a culprit to advance his claim. That is surely speculation on my part; but Waters offered noevidence to support his slander against the earl. And why the public has generally believed Waters for 150 years is equally puzzling.
In the latter instance, I suspect people form fixed conclusions, without examining the records, simply because they want to believe Waters. “He is an authority; he said it; and I believe it.” However, I say, examine the original records.
When I suggested that Waters may not have examined the pedigree, I did so on the basis of his numerous erroneous claims about it. To understand how fabulously mistaken he was, you must read our analysis of his claims – or examine the records yourself.
Shawn
According to ODNB John Weston's son and heir Robert was born in or
before 1522 - how is it established that the marriage of his parents had taken place 15 years before 1526? Do this mean it was contracted ca
1511, or consummated by around then? If it was perhaps not consummated
until around 1521, then how is it proven that Cecily could not have been
a maternal half-sister of Ralph Nevill?
On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 5:47:30 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:future Earl be married to a family of much lower station (although probably armigerous and wealthy), especially since, she would have been a valuable heiress should have her brother died.
With the exception of the 1526 charter, it is my understanding there are no other contemporary documents specifically referring to Cecily Neville being the sister of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland.Thank you for this response to my specific question, Andrew.
The charter, in conjunction with the detailed, referenced pedigree and the Weston correspondence would have been more than sufficient proof for a spouse from a less noble family, but in this case, the obvious red flag is why would the sister of a
I'm going to put aside the argument as to whether or not a sister and potential co-heiress of the Earl of Westmorland would be married to a local Staffordshire gentry family. I know I made the case against it some years back, but it remains speculativeat this point. The 4th Earl's known sister and potential co-heiress Isabel Neville was married as a second wife to a prominent Yorkshire gentryman Sir Robert Plumpton. Their maternal half-sister Elizabeth Darcy was married to another prominent Yorkshire
Joe Cochoit has provided a very useful summation of the arguments for and against Cecily Weston as the sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland in her Wikitree page. Joe has included the full text of the 1526 charter:with all my lands and tenements, meadows, grazings and pastures, rents, reversions and services with all and singular their appurtenances belonging to the aforementioned messuage, and also the whole of my meadow called Hams in Linhurst, to have and to
"The full text of the 1526 charter (BM Add MS 18667, fol. 101), translated, reads as follows:
[fo. 101 recto] Original at Chillington
"Know all men, present and future, that I, John Weston of Rugeley the elder, gent., have given, granted and in this my present charter have confirmed to John Giffard, knt., John Knightley, esq., and John Wolsley, gent., all my messuage in Lichfield,
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston#1526_Charter_.28translation.29son John Weston the younger, and for John the younger's wife Cecily. It has all the appearance of a marriage settlement.
I'm confused as to who translated this charter.
Let's assume for the moment for argument's sake that it is genuine. What is the purpose? John Weston the elder is transferring his chief property, and all of his other holdings in Lichfield, to three feoffees to hold those properties for the use of his
So it's very helpful to compare this to the marriage settlement of Sir Robert Plumpton and Isabel Neville. Thomas Stapleton, in his 'Plumpton Letters', does not unfortunately include a full transcription of the settlement, but he does abstract from it [pg. 197 note a]: "Dame Isabel Plumpton, their daughter, was married to Sir Robert Plumpton, of Plumpton, com. Ebor kt. about 18 Sep. 21 Hen. VII. 1505, for by deed of that date, the latter conveyed to Sir William Sand, kt. (afterwards the first Lord
https://archive.org/details/plumptoncorrespo04plumuoft/page/197/mode/2uplicence of their younger half sister Elizabeth Darcy to Marmaduke Constable was in 1514:
When we compare the Weston and the Plumpton deeds, supposedly the marriage settlements of two Neville sisters, a couple points stand out:
1) The Weston deed of 1526 is a full twenty-one years after the Plumpton deed of 1505. Why would the marriages of two sisters, both of whom would have to have been born between 1491 and 1498, be a full twenty years apart? Especially when the marriage
"1514, April 26. Licence for Marmaduke, son and heir of Sir Robert Constable, ant. par. Hotham, and Elizabeth Darcy of Templehurst par. Birkin, to be married in the chapel within the manor-house of Templehurst. Banns once."Plumpton deed is Isabel (Neville) Plumpton's maternal uncle Sir William (later 1st Lord) Sandys. He was still living in 1526.
https://archive.org/details/publicationssur05socigoog/page/n375/mode/2up
2) Why is John Weston's wife Cecily specifically identified in the 1526 deed as "sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland"? There is no such identification of Isabel wife of Sir Robert Plumpton in the 1505 marriage settlement.
3) Why are there no feoffees in the 1526 Weston deed from the Neville, Darcy or Sandys families, to safeguard the interests of John Weston of Lichfield's wife Cecily, if she was a near relation to them? Notice that the first-named feoffee in the 1505
family of the guardian of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland (via the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist from the Stafford family).We can only speculate on the answer, but Shawn's book discusses documented connections between the Westons of Lichfield and family of Isabel Booth, grandmother of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland, (via the Advowson and Prebend of Sawley), as well the
Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham, would only have had the guardianship of the 4th Earl of Westmorland. Any sisters would have remained in the care of their mother Edith (Sandys), Lady Neville, and her second husband Sir Thomas (later Lord) Darcy.
It's worth noting that Isabel Plumpton is assumed to be the daughter of Edith (Sandys) Lady Neville because in a letter written by Lady Edith to Lady Plumpton, she states, "Written in haste by the hand of your mother". Clearly Isabel Plumpton was namedfor her paternal grandmother Isabel (Booth), Countess of Westmorland. But the earliest Isabel could have been born is 1491, making her only 14 or 15 when she married the 52-year-old widower Sir Robert Plumpton in 1505. In a letter she wrote to Sir Robert
Andrew Giffard. I think analyzing the original document through a forensic lens would certainly help reinforce its credibility, especially in light of combined circumstantial evidence collected by the heralds as part of their research.Additionally, I don't recall the outcome of the past discussion about the veracity of the 1526 charter (which is absolutely crucial to the Neville descent), but the heralds found the charter in possession of a descendant of one of the witnesses,
Given that the original charter from 1526 cannot be located, and that this charter is the sole document from the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield that identifies his wife as sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, can we be certain thatthe herald who examined it didn't mis-transcribe it? If Richard Weston, 1st Earl of Portland, was insisting in 1630-32 when this pedigree was being created, that he was descended from the Neville Earls of Westmorland, how easy would it have been for the
I'm glad Shawn and his wife have examined the Weston pedigree in detail as it has helped to sort out much about the Weston family. But when it comes to the purported identity of Cecily, wife of John Weston of Lichfield as a sister of the 4th Earl ofWestmorland, I remain as skeptical as Robert Edmond Chester Waters was in 1878: "Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or wills of the Nevilles, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story
https://archive.org/details/genealogicalmem01wategoog/page/n150/mode/2upRegarding the issue of whether a sister of the Earl of Westmorland would have married a member of the local gentry, as
Happy holidays to you and yours,Thank you, and all the joy of the season to you.
Cheers, ----Brad
When I suggested that Waters may not have examined the pedigree, I did so on the basis of his numerous erroneous claims about it. To understand how fabulously mistaken he was, you must read our analysis of his claims – or examine the records yourself.
According to ODNB John Weston's son and heir Robert was born in or
before 1522 - how is it established that the marriage of his parents had taken place 15 years before 1526? Do this mean it was contracted ca
1511, or consummated by around then? If it was perhaps not consummated
until around 1521, then how is it proven that Cecily could not have been
a maternal half-sister of Ralph Nevill?
Once again, quoting Rabbit's answer to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, maybe! 😊 I love that Pooh Bear.
Once again, quoting Rabbit's answer to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, maybe! 😊 I love that Pooh Bear.
On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 2:09:14 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:Cecily Nevill, the sister of Ralph Earl of Westmoreland. Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or will of the Nevills, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story seems to depend on a deed,
Once again, quoting Rabbit's answer to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, maybe! 😊 I love that Pooh Bear.Group,
In 1878, Waters wrote in a footnote: “The doubts expressed in the text respecting Segar’s statement, that John Weston of Lichfield was the father of Richard Weston the Judge, apply with still greater force to the statement that his mother was Lady
In our book (Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/), we demonstrate, by examining and illustrating Weston pedigree supporting documents as well as independentrecords, that Waters was in error with regard to his above remarks, as well as other statements, about the Weston pedigree.
On pages 16-19 of our book, we demonstrate that three fundamental statements by Waters about the Weston pedigree were erroneous.erroneous – she was their mother.
On pages 31-62 of our book, we demonstrate that the statement by Waters that Justice Weston was not a brother of Chancellor Weston was erroneous – they were brothers.
On pages 64-114 of our book, we demonstrate that the statement by Waters that the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was not Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, was
On pages 113-114 of our book, we summarize our discoveries about Cecily Neville, as presented on pages 64-114 of our book, as follows.Westmorland.
“Our examination of Weston pedigree documents and independent records relating to the identity of the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston led to eight discoveries.
1. The immediate descendants of John Weston of Lichfield soared to the heights of society in a manner consistent with the influence of a recent ancestor from the aristocracy.
2. Neighbors, friends, and the public at large accepted, and did not object to, the Weston pedigree proclamation that the wife of John Weston of Lichfield was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
3. John Weston of Lichfield and his descendants held the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist Manor from the guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the guardian’s son and brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of
4. Sons of John Weston of Lichfield owned property that previously had been inherited by members of the family of Isabel Booth, mother of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville.4th Earl of Westmorland.
5. The tomb of a son, grandson, and great-granddaughter of John Weston of Lichfield displayed Neville arms impaling Weston arms — marital arms of a Weston male and his Neville wife.
6. John Weston of Rugeley deeded land to “John Weston, Junior, my son, and Cecily, his wife, sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland.”
7. Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
8. Nicholas Bacon of Gillingham, son-in-law of James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his wife’s great-grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville,
We found some of these discoveries to be suggestive, and others to be persuasive; however, as we considered this whole body of evidence, the effect on our thinking was decisive. Every detail points to a single conclusion. The mother of Justice Westonand Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.”
Those who wish to review our presentation, discussion, and illustration of documents that led to discoveries 1-8 above, should see pages 64-114 of our book.A well researched, presented, and sourced book that was certainly worth the small amount of money I spent to resolve the issue in my own mind. Thanks to both you and your wife for all of your efforts Shawn. Doubtless the hours of time spent in dialogue/
Shawn
A well researched, presented, and sourced book that was certainly worth the small amount of money I spent to resolve the issue in my own mind. Thanks to both you and your wife for all of your efforts Shawn. Doubtless the hours of time spent in dialogue/debate here are more costly at even a reasonable hourly rate than that which I spent on your worthy tome.
On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 8:26:14 PM UTC-5, ache...@gmail.com wrote:dialogue/debate here are more costly at even a reasonable hourly rate than that which I spent on your worthy tome.
A well researched, presented, and sourced book that was certainly worth the small amount of money I spent to resolve the issue in my own mind. Thanks to both you and your wife for all of your efforts Shawn. Doubtless the hours of time spent in
Thank you for your kind words. Lois and I are glad that our work was helpful to you in your research; and we appreciate your encouragement. Shawn
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 3:24:50 PM UTC-5, shp...@gmail.com wrote:mentioned in my earlier note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. These seals, with their arms, illustrate that the Weston families of Rugeley and Lichfield were
On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 11:08:22 AM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
I completely agree with you that "eagle displayed sable" was associated with the Weston family since at least Sir Hamo de Weston (d.1189); it'd be great to understand (if that's even possible) which family branches adopted which arms....
Hi Andrew,
Thank you again for your kind words and your good questions and comments. My wife and I are grateful to you.
To once more summarize, as you mentioned, your source, on page 508, notes: “The earliest armorial bearings of the Westons of Weston-under-Lyzard was an eagle displayed, and seals prove that this eagle was frequently regardant.” And, as I
displayed regardant sable; but it is significant that when the pedigree of 1632 was compiled, Lord Weston assumed the coat of the eagle, and in the same year Segar granted both coats to Richard Weston of Rugeley and his cousins at Lichfield.” SeeIn light of this, one wonders how Waters could have written: “[Justice Weston] bore Ermine, on a chief azure five bezants, with a martlet for difference…. They are wholly different from the arms of the Westons of Rugeley, which were Or, an eagle
Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/For those who want to know more about the Weston pedigree controversy, we address the assertion of fabrication by Waters – and examine Weston pedigree documentation as well as independent contemporary records – in our book Weston Pedigree
and Rev. William Walton of Marblehead, Massachusetts; and Stephen Terry and Jane Hardey of Dorchester, Massachusetts.By the way, final resolution of this controversy should be of special interest to the estimated five million Americans who trace their ancestries to Weston family immigrants Jeremy Clarke and Frances Latham of Newport, Rhode Island; Elizabeth Cooke
Neville-John Weston connection. As it is my same great grandmother who is my James Cudworth connection (for those familiar with that morass of, seemingly never to be rectified, questions) who is also descended from William Walton, I feel closer to myShawnThank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here (and I am reading through the long history of your Pedigree considerations). And also Thanks to Joe Cochoit on WikiTree for following your lead and giving a thumbs up to the Cecilia
Great fun, Thanks again Shawn, and to all who are making such great observations and citing of sources.
Paul Bumpus
Reviewing again the older thread on this same subject, a few points seem damning.
Then how is it proven that Cecily was not a paternal half-sister to the
4th earl of Westmorland, an illegitimate daughter of his father born to
some other woman while Lord Nevill was married to Edith Sandys?
Shawn, Thank you to you and Lois for all your work. I'm relatively new here and have been following this thread with great interest. Am just starting to explore medieval genealogy, and have purchased your book. This reading will significantly enhancemy understanding of gathering and evaluating evidence and making a case, and I'm looking forward to learning more about the Westons and the families of the earls of Westmorland. Congratulations! Jinny
Thanks Again for your work,
Reviewing again the older thread on this same subject, a few points seem damning.Regarding the issue of whether a sister of the Earl of Westmorland would have married a member of the local gentry, as
One, as has been beaten many times, is that this Cecily, and even her descendants, are not mentioned in any of the wills of this family to which she is said to belong.
Even more so, as, during the time the 4th Earl remained childless, she and her supposed sister, would have been co-heiresses to the immense fortune of the Westmoreland lands. Immense. Not slight. Enormous.
That she might be married off to some nobody, is not credible.
A terça-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2022 à(s) 19:56:10 UTC, wjhons...@gmail.com escreveu:that, Will? Admittedly, AFAIK, men were more likely than women to marry people from lower status than then
Reviewing again the older thread on this same subject, a few points seem damning.Regarding the issue of whether a sister of the Earl of Westmorland would have married a member of the local gentry, as
One, as has been beaten many times, is that this Cecily, and even her descendants, are not mentioned in any of the wills of this family to which she is said to belong.
Even more so, as, during the time the 4th Earl remained childless, she and her supposed sister, would have been co-heiresses to the immense fortune of the Westmoreland lands. Immense. Not slight. Enormous.
That she might be married off to some nobody, is not credible.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston#Other_Objections_Raised notes, Edith Sandys, supposed mother of Cecilia Neville, was from a local gentry family and her mother in law Isabel Booth was barely above her. What do you think of
Why could not Herald Lily and Garter Segar be misled - or bribed - as other officers of arms have been?
The marriage of females from the local gentry to magnates with vast possessions and high titles is not analogous to the opposite kind of match, where a potential heiress to vast possessions and corresponding rank was married off to a comparativenonentity.
On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 5:54:48 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:nonentity.
The marriage of females from the local gentry to magnates with vast possessions and high titles is not analogous to the opposite kind of match, where a potential heiress to vast possessions and corresponding rank was married off to a comparative
Peter,should not have married, are beside the point in light of the record.
I repeat a slightly edited form of what I posted earlier today.
The evidence we present in our book demonstrates that the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. Speculation five hundred years later about who she should have married, or
We summarize our thoughts in the conclusion of our book:the likelihood of conspiracy, but on the weight of the evidence from contemporary records. We found that independent descriptions of Weston family monuments, when compared with Weston pedigree sketches, demonstrate the accuracy of the Weston pedigree’s
"Yet the authors formed their conclusion about the veracity of these two statements in the Weston pedigree [the fraternal relationship between Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston, and the identity of their mother] not on the basis of speculation about
The case you have presented in this forum would be far more persuasive if you had Nevills describing Westons as their relatives.
We follow the evidence where it leads rather than trying to imagine how this or that bit of evidence, if it had survived, would have effected our conclusions. The evidence we found and present is compelling.
On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 9:27:03 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:seek to understand our work.
The case you have presented in this forum would be far more persuasive if you had Nevills describing Westons as their relatives.
Hi Peter,
I am not trying to present my case on this forum. See my initial post. I am encouraging readers to examine the evidence that my wife and I present in our book. My responses to you and others here are intended to be a courtesy to those who sincerely
We follow the evidence where it leads rather than trying to imagine how this or that bit of evidence, if it had survived, would have effected our conclusions. The evidence we found and present is compelling.
Rather than engaging in endless speculation, why not examine the evidence we present in our book? I think you will find the case to be compelling.
On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:56:10 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:We address this false assertion on page 18 of our book.
Reviewing again the older thread on this same subject, a few points seem damning.Hi Will,
As I have noted before, many people have said a lot about the Weston pedigree over the years without ever bothering to examine the original documents. In the process, they often repeat unfounded assertions by Waters, and thereby perpetuate his mistakes.
“… it is regrettable that Waters failed to identify the Neville wills that he said do not mention Cecily. The authors engaged archivists at The National Archives in London, Durham University in Durham, and the University of York in York, to searchfor wills of (1) Ralph Neville, Lord Neville; (2) Edith Sandys, wife firstly of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and secondly of Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (3) Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (4) Elizabeth, daughter of Edith Sandys and Thomas Darcy, Knt.
So I would ask what wills the people who make this argument are referring to. And why does the number of times such a red herring has been repeated matter?property before 1540, when Parliament enacted the Act of Wills, Wards, and Primer Seisins, Whereby a Man May Devise Two Parts of His Land.12 Therefore, it would not be surprising to find a will during this time frame that did not mention a child that was
We continue on the same page of our book:
“The authors further note that even if Waters identified a Neville will that did not mention Cecily, his argument from silence would be unconvincing, because the rule of primogeniture rather than bequest by will determined the inheritance of real
On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:19:28 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:mistakes. We address this false assertion on page 18 of our book.
On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:56:10 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
Reviewing again the older thread on this same subject, a few points seem damning.Hi Will,
As I have noted before, many people have said a lot about the Weston pedigree over the years without ever bothering to examine the original documents. In the process, they often repeat unfounded assertions by Waters, and thereby perpetuate his
search for wills of (1) Ralph Neville, Lord Neville; (2) Edith Sandys, wife firstly of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and secondly of Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (3) Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (4) Elizabeth, daughter of Edith Sandys and Thomas“… it is regrettable that Waters failed to identify the Neville wills that he said do not mention Cecily. The authors engaged archivists at The National Archives in London, Durham University in Durham, and the University of York in York, to
property before 1540, when Parliament enacted the Act of Wills, Wards, and Primer Seisins, Whereby a Man May Devise Two Parts of His Land.12 Therefore, it would not be surprising to find a will during this time frame that did not mention a child that wasSo I would ask what wills the people who make this argument are referring to. And why does the number of times such a red herring has been repeated matter?
We continue on the same page of our book:
“The authors further note that even if Waters identified a Neville will that did not mention Cecily, his argument from silence would be unconvincing, because the rule of primogeniture rather than bequest by will determined the inheritance of real
Wills are not used for the purpose of devising land generally, in this period, as you've stated.
No one has ever said that there should be a will devising land to Cecily. Just that she is not mentioned.
However wills can contain dozens of bequests and instructions that have nothing to do with land.
So this paragraph is a bit misapplied in this case.
By the way, did you manage to review the IPMs at all for this family?
On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 8:48:10 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:mistakes. We address this false assertion on page 18 of our book.
On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:19:28 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:56:10 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
Reviewing again the older thread on this same subject, a few points seem damning.Hi Will,
As I have noted before, many people have said a lot about the Weston pedigree over the years without ever bothering to examine the original documents. In the process, they often repeat unfounded assertions by Waters, and thereby perpetuate his
search for wills of (1) Ralph Neville, Lord Neville; (2) Edith Sandys, wife firstly of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and secondly of Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (3) Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (4) Elizabeth, daughter of Edith Sandys and Thomas“… it is regrettable that Waters failed to identify the Neville wills that he said do not mention Cecily. The authors engaged archivists at The National Archives in London, Durham University in Durham, and the University of York in York, to
property before 1540, when Parliament enacted the Act of Wills, Wards, and Primer Seisins, Whereby a Man May Devise Two Parts of His Land.12 Therefore, it would not be surprising to find a will during this time frame that did not mention a child that wasSo I would ask what wills the people who make this argument are referring to. And why does the number of times such a red herring has been repeated matter?
We continue on the same page of our book:
“The authors further note that even if Waters identified a Neville will that did not mention Cecily, his argument from silence would be unconvincing, because the rule of primogeniture rather than bequest by will determined the inheritance of real
Wills are not used for the purpose of devising land generally, in this period, as you've stated.
No one has ever said that there should be a will devising land to Cecily. Just that she is not mentioned.
However wills can contain dozens of bequests and instructions that have nothing to do with land.
So this paragraph is a bit misapplied in this case.
By the way, did you manage to review the IPMs at all for this family?
I might also mention, that the wills *in* this family, and their own IPM where occurring, do not make any mention of this connection. Which is odd. You should give to the rich and famous, something, so they remember that your branch exists too.
PROB 11/55: Will of Robert Weston, Chancellor of Ireland
PROB 11/73: Will of James Weston of Lichfield, Staffordshire
PROB 11/54: Will of Richard Westone, Queen's Justice of Common Pleas
of Westminster, Middlesex
Another critical record is the Heralds Visitation of Essex from 1612.
On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 1:57:20 PM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:did not know the identity of his parents, or that he did not have parents 😊, or that his parents were, or were not, these people or that. Second, contemporary records reveal that people in the pedigree understood that Cecily Neville was his mother.
Another critical record is the Heralds Visitation of Essex from 1612.Hi Leslie,
Records should be interpreted in light of both content and context. With this in mind, I offer the following thoughts. First, the pedigree does not identify the parents of Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas. That does not mean that the heralds
Furthermore, Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667 -- one of the three known copies of the Weston pedigree, includes a copy of this pedigree among the documentation. So the heralds wereaware of it, and did not consider it to be problematic.
Those who refuse to look at the complete record, while speculating about how this document or that – considered in no context at all – might suggest that Waters was correct, reveal their bias. And they repeat the errors made by Waters. Where is theobjectivity and good scholarship in that?
Shawn
On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 1:57:20 PM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:did not know the identity of his parents, or that he did not have parents 😊, or that his parents were, or were not, these people or that. Second, contemporary records reveal that people in the pedigree understood that Cecily Neville was his mother.
Another critical record is the Heralds Visitation of Essex from 1612.Hi Leslie,
Records should be interpreted in light of both content and context. With this in mind, I offer the following thoughts. First, the pedigree does not identify the parents of Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas. That does not mean that the heralds
Furthermore, Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667 -- one of the three known copies of the Weston pedigree, includes a copy of this pedigree among the documentation. So the heralds wereaware of it, and did not consider it to be problematic.
Those who refuse to look at the complete record, while speculating about how this document or that – considered in no context at all – might suggest that Waters was correct, reveal their bias. And they repeat the errors made by Waters. Where is theobjectivity and good scholarship in that?
Shawn
The book is good, but it does leave some of the answers out, like were there Neville docs referring to Cecilia (or docs from her mother, or siblings!). Maybe if you answered some of those questions here...
On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 8:04:44 PM UTC-5, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:proves that Cecily was not a Neville. Yet archivists we engaged found no wills for any relevant Neville (and related) family members. So why did Waters make such a misleading assertion? And why are people repeating his false claim? I think they should
The book is good, but it does leave some of the answers out, like were there Neville docs referring to Cecilia (or docs from her mother, or siblings!). Maybe if you answered some of those questions here...Hi PJ,
Thank you for complementing our work. I answered this question earlier. We address the matter on pages 17-18 of our book where we discuss Waters’ third objection to the Weston pedigree. Waters said no Neville wills mention Cecily, as if his statement
Shawn
On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 8:04:44 PM UTC-5, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:proves that Cecily was not a Neville. Yet archivists we engaged found no wills for any relevant Neville (and related) family members. So why did Waters make such a misleading assertion? And why are people repeating his false claim? I think they should
The book is good, but it does leave some of the answers out, like were there Neville docs referring to Cecilia (or docs from her mother, or siblings!). Maybe if you answered some of those questions here...Hi PJ,
Thank you for complementing our work. I answered this question earlier. We address the matter on pages 17-18 of our book where we discuss Waters’ third objection to the Weston pedigree. Waters said no Neville wills mention Cecily, as if his statement
Shawn
On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 8:50:22 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:statement proves that Cecily was not a Neville. Yet archivists we engaged found no wills for any relevant Neville (and related) family members. So why did Waters make such a misleading assertion? And why are people repeating his false claim? I think they
On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 8:04:44 PM UTC-5, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
The book is good, but it does leave some of the answers out, like were there Neville docs referring to Cecilia (or docs from her mother, or siblings!). Maybe if you answered some of those questions here...Hi PJ,
Thank you for complementing our work. I answered this question earlier. We address the matter on pages 17-18 of our book where we discuss Waters’ third objection to the Weston pedigree. Waters said no Neville wills mention Cecily, as if his
Neville; (2) Edith Sandys, wife firstly of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and secondly of Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (3) Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (4) Elizabeth, daughter of Edith Sandys and Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy, and wife of MarmadukeShawnAs I mentioned in my earlier post, on page 18 of our book we explain: “The authors engaged archivists at The National Archives in London, Durham University in Durham, and the University of York in York, to search for wills of (1) Ralph Neville, Lord
In 2012 – ten years ago – my wife and I also asked these same archivists to search for IPMs. The only response in the affirmative was from the National Archives. The archivist there wrote: “There are no surviving inquisitions post mortem for theindividuals which you name, with the exceptions of those which we have already searched on your behalf (Thomas Lord Darcy and Ralph, 3rd Earl of Westmorland).” Neither Isabel nor Cecily are named in these. “I would say though that you are much more
So I ask again, why did Waters say that Cecily does not appear in any Neville wills? It seems likely to us that he thought no one would examine the record and discover his misleading assertion. What does that say about his credibility? And now that mywife and I have uncovered the numerous baseless statements about the Weston pedigree that Waters made in his article – see our book, I ask again, why do some continue to repeat his unfounded claims?
Shawn
I took a look at the Weston entries in the _Oxford Dictionary of National Biography_(2004). Only Richard the Judge was of sufficient standing to have an entry.
On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 4:49:52 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
I took a look at the Weston entries in the _Oxford Dictionary of National Biography_(2004). Only Richard the Judge was of sufficient standing to have an entry.Thanks, Johnny. That's very interesting. Someone should let the authors know about our book - Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/ 😊
Shawn
Or perhaps you could mail him a copy to England --- it would be the polite thing to do!
Or perhaps you could mail him a copy to England --- it would be the polite thing to do!
On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 2:09:14 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:Cecily Nevill, the sister of Ralph Earl of Westmoreland. Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or will of the Nevills, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story seems to depend on a deed,
Once again, quoting Rabbit's answer to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, maybe! 😊 I love that Pooh Bear.Group,
In 1878, Waters wrote in a footnote: “The doubts expressed in the text respecting Segar’s statement, that John Weston of Lichfield was the father of Richard Weston the Judge, apply with still greater force to the statement that his mother was Lady
In our book (Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/), we demonstrate, by examining and illustrating Weston pedigree supporting documents as well as independentrecords, that Waters was in error with regard to his above remarks, as well as other statements, about the Weston pedigree.
On pages 16-19 of our book, we demonstrate that three fundamental statements by Waters about the Weston pedigree were erroneous.erroneous – she was their mother.
On pages 31-62 of our book, we demonstrate that the statement by Waters that Justice Weston was not a brother of Chancellor Weston was erroneous – they were brothers.
On pages 64-114 of our book, we demonstrate that the statement by Waters that the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was not Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, was
On pages 113-114 of our book, we summarize our discoveries about Cecily Neville, as presented on pages 64-114 of our book, as follows.Westmorland.
“Our examination of Weston pedigree documents and independent records relating to the identity of the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston led to eight discoveries.
1. The immediate descendants of John Weston of Lichfield soared to the heights of society in a manner consistent with the influence of a recent ancestor from the aristocracy.
2. Neighbors, friends, and the public at large accepted, and did not object to, the Weston pedigree proclamation that the wife of John Weston of Lichfield was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
3. John Weston of Lichfield and his descendants held the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist Manor from the guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the guardian’s son and brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of
4. Sons of John Weston of Lichfield owned property that previously had been inherited by members of the family of Isabel Booth, mother of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville.4th Earl of Westmorland.
5. The tomb of a son, grandson, and great-granddaughter of John Weston of Lichfield displayed Neville arms impaling Weston arms — marital arms of a Weston male and his Neville wife.
6. John Weston of Rugeley deeded land to “John Weston, Junior, my son, and Cecily, his wife, sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland.”
7. Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
8. Nicholas Bacon of Gillingham, son-in-law of James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his wife’s great-grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville,
We found some of these discoveries to be suggestive, and others to be persuasive; however, as we considered this whole body of evidence, the effect on our thinking was decisive. Every detail points to a single conclusion. The mother of Justice Westonand Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.”
Those who wish to review our presentation, discussion, and illustration of documents that led to discoveries 1-8 above, should see pages 64-114 of our book.
Shawn
My wife and I congratulate Joe Cochoit for discovering two independent copies of item 8 above in the archives of the College of Arms. These independent copies are identical to the record that is included in the Weston pedigree supporting documentation.These independent copies confirm the authenticity of the Weston pedigree document. See our book for other examples of independent records that authenticate Weston pedigree documentation. An image of the document can be found on page 108 of our book.
The document is a deposition by Nicholas Bacon for creation of a funeral certificate for his father-in-law, James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer. It was not created to support the Weston pedigree. In part, Nicholas Bacon stated: “Iames Westonof Lichefeild in the county of Staff: gent’ [was the] fourth sonne of Iohn Weston by Cecilie his wife daughter of Rafe Neuile Lo: Neuile, and sister of Rafe E of Westmerland.” Henry Chitting, Chester Herald of the College of Arms, certified Nicholas
Good work, Joe. We just credited you for making this discovery in an update to our book.
Shawn
1. The immediate descendants of John Weston of Lichfield soared to the heights of society in a manner consistent with the influence of a recent ancestor from the aristocracy.
2. Neighbors, friends, and the public at large accepted, and did not object to, the Weston pedigree proclamation that the wife of John Weston of Lichfield was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
3. John Weston of Lichfield and his descendants held the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist Manor from the guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the guardian’s son and brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl ofWestmorland.
4. Sons of John Weston of Lichfield owned property that previously had been inherited by members of the family of Isabel Booth, mother of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville.
5. The tomb of a son, grandson, and great-granddaughter of John Weston of Lichfield displayed Neville arms impaling Weston arms — marital arms of a Weston male and his Neville wife.
6. John Weston of Rugeley deeded land to “John Weston, Junior, my son, and Cecily, his wife, sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland.”
7. Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.8. Nicholas Bacon of Gillingham, son-in-law of James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his wife’s great-grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 5:06:36 AM UTC-5, mark66j...@gmail.com wrote:filed among other funeral certificates. Therefore, it confirms that Nicholas Bacon, executor of his father-in-law's estate, truly made the witnessed deposition that is included among the other documentation in the Weston pedigree. This confirmation, like
Mark,
You misrepresent my description of the value of this document. As I explained, it is a deposition for a funeral certificate. It was not produced for the Weston pedigree. It was found in the College of Arms archives, apart from the Weston pedigree,
Furthermore, your comments reveal that you have not bothered to read our book, since we address there many of your false assumptions. You simply repeat mistakes made by Waters and various other posters here since my wife and I first shared ourdiscoveries with the group in 2011. So there is no sense in responding to your many erroneous notions about the evidence that we discovered regarding Cecily Neville. I encourage you, and anyone else who wishes to understand the credibility of the Weston
Shawn
I have not studied heraldry so I'm unsure of the answer to this question. However, Anne de Holland who married John 1st Baron Neville, was the sole heiress of her brother Henry
Meanwhile Catherine Halton who married Sir Roger Booth of Sawley, was the heiress of her father
Would this not give *all* their descendants the right to put these arms on any of their own sheilas?
On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 10:48:34 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:Lady Cecily Nevill, the sister of Ralph Earl of Westmoreland. Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or will of the Nevills, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story seems to depend on a
On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 2:09:14 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
Once again, quoting Rabbit's answer to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, maybe! 😊 I love that Pooh Bear.Group,
In 1878, Waters wrote in a footnote: “The doubts expressed in the text respecting Segar’s statement, that John Weston of Lichfield was the father of Richard Weston the Judge, apply with still greater force to the statement that his mother was
records, that Waters was in error with regard to his above remarks, as well as other statements, about the Weston pedigree.In our book (Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/), we demonstrate, by examining and illustrating Weston pedigree supporting documents as well as independent
erroneous – she was their mother.On pages 16-19 of our book, we demonstrate that three fundamental statements by Waters about the Weston pedigree were erroneous.
On pages 31-62 of our book, we demonstrate that the statement by Waters that Justice Weston was not a brother of Chancellor Weston was erroneous – they were brothers.
On pages 64-114 of our book, we demonstrate that the statement by Waters that the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was not Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, was
Westmorland.On pages 113-114 of our book, we summarize our discoveries about Cecily Neville, as presented on pages 64-114 of our book, as follows.
“Our examination of Weston pedigree documents and independent records relating to the identity of the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston led to eight discoveries.
1. The immediate descendants of John Weston of Lichfield soared to the heights of society in a manner consistent with the influence of a recent ancestor from the aristocracy.
2. Neighbors, friends, and the public at large accepted, and did not object to, the Weston pedigree proclamation that the wife of John Weston of Lichfield was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
3. John Weston of Lichfield and his descendants held the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist Manor from the guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the guardian’s son and brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of
Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.4. Sons of John Weston of Lichfield owned property that previously had been inherited by members of the family of Isabel Booth, mother of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville.
5. The tomb of a son, grandson, and great-granddaughter of John Weston of Lichfield displayed Neville arms impaling Weston arms — marital arms of a Weston male and his Neville wife.
6. John Weston of Rugeley deeded land to “John Weston, Junior, my son, and Cecily, his wife, sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland.”
7. Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
8. Nicholas Bacon of Gillingham, son-in-law of James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his wife’s great-grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph
and Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.”We found some of these discoveries to be suggestive, and others to be persuasive; however, as we considered this whole body of evidence, the effect on our thinking was decisive. Every detail points to a single conclusion. The mother of Justice Weston
These independent copies confirm the authenticity of the Weston pedigree document. See our book for other examples of independent records that authenticate Weston pedigree documentation. An image of the document can be found on page 108 of our book.Those who wish to review our presentation, discussion, and illustration of documents that led to discoveries 1-8 above, should see pages 64-114 of our book.
Shawn
Group,
My wife and I congratulate Joe Cochoit for discovering two independent copies of item 8 above in the archives of the College of Arms. These independent copies are identical to the record that is included in the Weston pedigree supporting documentation.
The document is a deposition by Nicholas Bacon for creation of a funeral certificate for his father-in-law, James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer. It was not created to support the Weston pedigree. In part, Nicholas Bacon stated: “Iames Westonof Lichefeild in the county of Staff: gent’ [was the] fourth sonne of Iohn Weston by Cecilie his wife daughter of Rafe Neuile Lo: Neuile, and sister of Rafe E of Westmerland.” Henry Chitting, Chester Herald of the College of Arms, certified Nicholas
Good work, Joe. We just credited you for making this discovery in an update to our book.
Shawn
It has been said that his James Weston's daughter Anne was "heiress" of her father, but his will shows clearly that she was dead, so more properly "heiress in her issue".
Her only surviving child was Anne Bacon, apparently not yet married when James Weston made his will 4 Nov 1632, as he provides money "for her marriage" which she soon did to John /Roos/ of Henham Hall, co Suff; Knt and 1st Bnt 12C2
There is another curious thing in this will I'm trying to ferret out
Does anyone know where exactly this James Weston fits into the broader Weston pedigree?
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 7:23:58 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 7:17:43 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
It has been said that his James Weston's daughter Anne was "heiress" of her father, but his will shows clearly that she was dead, so more properly "heiress in her issue".
Her only surviving child was Anne Bacon, apparently not yet married when James Weston made his will 4 Nov 1632, as he provides money "for her marriage" which she soon did to John /Roos/ of Henham Hall, co Suff; Knt and 1st Bnt 12C2
There is another curious thing in this will I'm trying to ferret outIn a complete surprise I noted that this James West calls himself "of Castle Camps", a place I'd never heard
Does anyone know where exactly this James Weston fits into the broader Weston pedigree?
And in his will, he repeats a few times that she is not yet sixteen? or fifteen? it's hard to make out
And then without prejudice I found the baptism of Anne which I'd previously overlooked
18 Feb 1620 Castle Camps, co CambRecte: James WESTON for James West in my above
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 7:17:43 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
It has been said that his James Weston's daughter Anne was "heiress" of her father, but his will shows clearly that she was dead, so more properly "heiress in her issue".
Her only surviving child was Anne Bacon, apparently not yet married when James Weston made his will 4 Nov 1632, as he provides money "for her marriage" which she soon did to John /Roos/ of Henham Hall, co Suff; Knt and 1st Bnt 12C2
There is another curious thing in this will I'm trying to ferret outIn a complete surprise I noted that this James West calls himself "of Castle Camps", a place I'd never heard
Does anyone know where exactly this James Weston fits into the broader Weston pedigree?
And in his will, he repeats a few times that she is not yet sixteen? or fifteen? it's hard to make out
And then without prejudice I found the baptism of Anne which I'd previously overlooked
18 Feb 1620 Castle Camps, co Camb
Sir James Weston was buried 15 Dec 1633 Castle Camps18 Feb 1620 Castle Camps, co CambRecte: James WESTON for James West in my above
"The Judges of England" (even though he wasn't a judge) has an entry for him and calls his wife Mary Weston, daughter of William Weston of Kent, esq.
She does not appear in his will so I suppose Mary was already dead
But who is this father of hers? Where does he goes in the Weston pedigree?
This source also states that James was the son of James Weston (d1589) by Margery Lowe (d1587)
And that he was entered at the Inner Temple "three years after his father's death"
Does anyone know where exactly this James Weston fits into the broader Weston pedigree?
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 10:17:43 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:of Lichfield, who wrote “… my Grandfather Iohn Weston, who whilest he liued in England, liued in the Citty of Lichfeld, and had to wife Cecely, the daughter of Ralph Neuill that died in the life tyme of the Earle of Westmorland his father.” See
Does anyone know where exactly this James Weston fits into the broader Weston pedigree?Hi Will,
James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, was a son of James Weston of Lichfield, son of John Weston of Lichfield and Cecily Neville. You can find a chart showing his place in the family on page 110 of our book. He was a brother of Simon Weston, Knt.,
Shawn
Haha still beating that horse
It's dead!
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 11:10:08 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
Haha still beating that horseWill,
It's dead!
Why do you respond with such ingratitude and rudeness when I take the time to answer your questions and point you to the sources?
Shawn
You are absolutely right in inferring that rudeness is undesirable here.
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 11:10:08 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
Haha still beating that horseWill,
It's dead!
Why do you respond with such ingratitude and rudeness when I take the time to answer your questions and point you to the sources?
Shawn
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 8:24:36 AM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 11:10:08 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
Haha still beating that horseWill,
It's dead!
Why do you respond with such ingratitude and rudeness when I take the time to answer your questions and point you to the sources?
ShawnWell I wouldn't say the *source* is your book :)
That's a bit self serving
See page 106 of our book....
The "Judges of England" has this reference, so I'll use that
I was interested as a descendant of Jeremy Clarke to see whether the Potters’ volume adds anything of substance ... So far as I can tell, it does not, ...
On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 4:15:49 PM UTC-5, sswa...@butler.edu wrote:comments reveal that you are completely unaware of the content of our book. Where is the value in posting an opinion about a book that you have not read? Our book demonstrates that Waters was mistaken in every respect regarding the Weston pedigree, while
I was interested as a descendant of Jeremy Clarke to see whether the Potters’ volume adds anything of substance ... So far as I can tell, it does not, ...
Scott,
You use a lot of words to say not much – mostly rambling inuendo which ignores our work. Did you really read it … from cover to cover, or are you merely reciting bits and pieces of earlier online posts? I ask sincerely, because many of your
Shawn
By the way, Scott, you wrote that "Mr Potter did acknowledge that he had omitted Matt Tompkins’ work." Here again, you are grossly mistaken. Matt was kind enough to search several English archives and translate a number of Latin documents for us manyyears ago. We are grateful for Matt's assistance; and we say so in our book. That gratitude does not mean that we are compelled to agree with his every thought; and disagreement with him on a single point does not diminish our respect for his scholarship.
On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 10:57:10 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:MpM0kLeAX9kJ when he wrote: "The document is a puzzling one, however, and needs careful interpretation. It consists of just a list of names with almost no other detail identifying individuals or their relationships, tantalizingly holding back as much
I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.Further, in response to your good question, Will, ***we decided that it was unnecessary to address the Kettle document in our book***. Matt Tompkins offered valuable perspective here https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/37WN4EU-PyA/m/
We believe Matt was mistaken with respect to his conclusion. But, of course, he reached this opinion, while expressing some reservation, before he had the benefit of our review of the Weston pedigree documentation in our book.
*** If we had addressed the Kettle document in our book...***
Nichols does note that the brass of John Weston of Rugeley nephew of John Weston of Lichfield bore only the standard Weston of Rugeley arms, and one wonders why the “ermine, on a chief azure five bezants” arms do not appear habitually elsewhere inthe Rugeley family just as one wonders why the Rugeley arms appear in the Judge’s family only in the person of the Earl of Portland.
On the point of Edith Sandys herself being a "nobody", we should note the close relationship of Henry VIII to her brother William, and thus her prospects were greatly elevated from what one might suppose based on their background alone.Could you, please, elabrorate on that relationship, Will?
A quarta-feira, 14 de dezembro de 2022 à(s) 17:11:04 UTC, wjhons...@gmail.com escreveu:
On the point of Edith Sandys herself being a "nobody", we should note the close relationship of Henry VIII to her brother William, and thus her prospects were greatly elevated from what one might suppose based on their background alone.Could you, please, elabrorate on that relationship, Will?
On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 1:23:42 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thank, Will but the problem is that Ralph Neville, husband of Edith Sandys, died long before Henry VIII became King. Indeed, Henry VIII was only 7 years old when Ralph Neville died.
A quarta-feira, 14 de dezembro de 2022 à(s) 17:11:04 UTC, wjhons...@gmail.com escreveu:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sandys,_1st_Baron_Sandys
On the point of Edith Sandys herself being a "nobody", we should note the close relationship of Henry VIII to her brother William, and thus her prospects were greatly elevated from what one might suppose based on their background alone.Could you, please, elabrorate on that relationship, Will?
A quinta-feira, 22 de dezembro de 2022 à(s) 17:13:53 UTC, wjhons...@gmail.com escreveu:
On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 1:23:42 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thank, Will but the problem is that Ralph Neville, husband of Edith Sandys, died long before Henry VIII became King. Indeed, Henry VIII was only 7 years old when Ralph Neville died.
A quarta-feira, 14 de dezembro de 2022 à(s) 17:11:04 UTC, wjhons...@gmail.com escreveu:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sandys,_1st_Baron_Sandys
On the point of Edith Sandys herself being a "nobody", we should note the close relationship of Henry VIII to her brother William, and thus her prospects were greatly elevated from what one might suppose based on their background alone.Could you, please, elabrorate on that relationship, Will?
A quinta-feira, 22 de dezembro de 2022 à(s) 17:13:53 UTC, wjhons...@gmail.com escreveu:
On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 1:23:42 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thank, Will but the problem is that Ralph Neville, husband of Edith Sandys, died long before Henry VIII became King. Indeed, Henry VIII was only 7 years old when Ralph Neville died.
A quarta-feira, 14 de dezembro de 2022 à(s) 17:11:04 UTC, wjhons...@gmail.com escreveu:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sandys,_1st_Baron_Sandys
On the point of Edith Sandys herself being a "nobody", we should note the close relationship of Henry VIII to her brother William, and thus her prospects were greatly elevated from what one might suppose based on their background alone.Could you, please, elabrorate on that relationship, Will?
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