• Sancho De Leyva/LEIVA

    From ingrid De leyva y hapsburg@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 6 13:33:06 2022
    What year did he come to uk?

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  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to ingrid De leyva y hapsburg on Mon Nov 7 09:50:55 2022
    On 07-Nov-22 8:33 AM, ingrid De leyva y hapsburg wrote:
    What year did he come to uk?

    The alleged marriage to an illegitimate daughter of Edward III was an
    invention of the 16th-century poet Luis Zapata in his immense epic
    "Carlos famoso", which Cervantes satirised as impossible to read. The
    minor noble family of Martínez de Leyva wanted a grand back-story, as so
    many did, and a fictitious link to English royalty became a welcome part
    of it in their case.

    Peter Stewart

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  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Peter Stewart on Mon Nov 7 13:37:14 2022
    On 07-Nov-22 9:50 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
    On 07-Nov-22 8:33 AM, ingrid De leyva y hapsburg wrote:
    What year did he come to uk?

    The alleged marriage to an illegitimate daughter of Edward III was an invention of the 16th-century poet Luis Zapata in his immense epic
    "Carlos famoso", which Cervantes satirised as impossible to read. The
    minor noble family of Martínez de Leyva wanted a grand back-story, as so many did, and a fictitious link to English royalty became a welcome part
    of it in their case.

    It may not be accurate to say that Zapata invented the marriage - for
    all I know he may have picked it up from a biography of Sancho Martínez
    de Leyva, known as "Brazo de hierro", that was written in the mid-15th
    century by Lorenzo de Ayerbe, master of the order of San Benito. I
    haven't seen this and don't know if it is published. The work was
    written for Sancho's grandson, and since Sancho himself was illegitimate
    it may be that an English connection was fabricated to cover that little embarrassment with a sensational diversion into royal ancestry.

    As for the alleged mother of Edward III's fictitious bastard daughter
    "Isabel Milady", there was no such person as "Isabel de Sufolch de la
    casa de Notuberlan" available for extra-marital relations in the first
    place. Presumably the "house of Northumberland" refers to the Percy
    family, but the first earl in that line was created at Richard II's
    coronation so there is at least some anachronism at work - there were no
    earls of Northumberland in the reign of Edward III. There were earls of Suffolk, but their surname was Ufford and there is no recorded
    Percy/Ufford (or Ufford/Percy) marriage in the 14th century. The only
    Isabel of Suffolk at the time was wife successively to John Lestrange
    and William de Ufford, and she did not have any children by either of
    them - or by anyone else, much less by the king, in a contemporary
    source. After being widowed twice she became a nun.

    Edward III had several illegitimate offspring born from 1364 onwards. As
    noted by Mark Ormrod, "Whatever the possibility of earlier peccadilloes,
    there had never been any rumour or suggestion that Edward had previously
    sired illegitimate children." Since he died in 1377, he cannot have had
    any later daughters who were marriageable in his lifetime. Neither of
    his two known illegitimate daughters married anyone from Castile. The
    legendary Martínez de Leyva connection is utter trash.

    Peter Stewart


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