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  • Royal Ancestry question

    From vcczar@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 28 15:27:31 2022
    Hi everyone,

    I'm well-aware of royal ancesty books by Gary Boyd Roberts and Douglas Richardson for American royal descent. However, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any books for Germans (non-American) of royal descent, say leading back to Charlemagne. I'm not sure
    how "gateway ancestors" would work in this regard. Anyway, just a shot in the dark question.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From FELIX E-E PFEIFLE@21:1/5 to vcczar on Sun Oct 30 12:14:57 2022
    On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 6:27:33 PM UTC-4, vcczar wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I'm well-aware of royal ancesty books by Gary Boyd Roberts and Douglas Richardson for American royal descent. However, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any books for Germans (non-American) of royal descent, say leading back to Charlemagne. I'm not sure
    how "gateway ancestors" would work in this regard. Anyway, just a shot in the dark question.

    Greetings, VCCzar, Very good question--I'd be curious to hear from professional genealogists on this. I don't believe there are any specific books in Continental Europe for such research other than the standard books of aristocratic genealogy, such as
    the German Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, etc. I suppose in America we have the benefit of that "separation" from Great Britain and Europe in order to isolate just certain ancestors, those upon their immigration here. Due to primogeniture in the
    English and Scottish nobility, as you probably know, there is a far greater chance of "trickle-down" royal descent for Americans than there is even for Germans, etc., perhaps.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to joseph cook on Sun Oct 30 12:44:49 2022
    On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 3:40:29 PM UTC-4, joseph cook wrote:
    On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 3:14:58 PM UTC-4, FELIX E-E PFEIFLE wrote:
    On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 6:27:33 PM UTC-4, vcczar wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I'm well-aware of royal ancesty books by Gary Boyd Roberts and Douglas Richardson for American royal descent. However, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any books for Germans (non-American) of royal descent, say leading back to Charlemagne. I'm not
    sure how "gateway ancestors" would work in this regard. Anyway, just a shot in the dark question.
    America is a weird situation that a limited number of 17th century founders (about 20,000 in New England) became the ancestors tens of millions of Americans today; and a relatively high proportion of these immigrants were of gentry stock with money
    that allowed them to invest their time in such adventures. That America did become a melting pot in that there was extreme cross-class marriage and interactions compared to Europe. So you can come up with a list of a few hundred folks with known royal
    ancestry that have millions of living descendants who care.

    "Germany", or central Europe in general, on the other hand, did not have the same level of class mobility where you would expect a random farmer to ever be three generations removed from nobility (at least not recorded in records). You also don't have
    anywhere near the ready access to surviving records as England for the pre-1500 period. Trying to trace barely significant individuals in 14th or 15th century central europe is beyond daunting. Before 1600 in Wittgenstein, for example, folks would be in
    militialists just as "Abraham" or "Georg" with no other descriptor...maybe an occupation; and maybe a house (physical house structure) name if you are lucky. In England, it was much earlier...the process to have "family" name identifiers in records was
    entrenched by 1350, and true surnames were ubiquitous by 1400 in England.


    It's also probably worth noting that England has been a country with continuous legal framework basically since 1066; with legal records existing since that time in centralized and well maintained repositories.

    Compare to this map of "Germany" 1600

    https://external-preview.redd.it/XmNUsWtfieHEZlgqTroBb9MGICqazBBD1HVWnwpNE6g.jpg?auto=webp&s=904e2bfaf8f3a16a9266eec53012c5527571e0a1

    a mish-mash of local authorities. Then the 30 years war came through to mash it up even more.
    --Joe Cook

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to FELIX E-E PFEIFLE on Sun Oct 30 12:40:27 2022
    On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 3:14:58 PM UTC-4, FELIX E-E PFEIFLE wrote:
    On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 6:27:33 PM UTC-4, vcczar wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I'm well-aware of royal ancesty books by Gary Boyd Roberts and Douglas Richardson for American royal descent. However, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any books for Germans (non-American) of royal descent, say leading back to Charlemagne. I'm not
    sure how "gateway ancestors" would work in this regard. Anyway, just a shot in the dark question.

    America is a weird situation that a limited number of 17th century founders (about 20,000 in New England) became the ancestors tens of millions of Americans today; and a relatively high proportion of these immigrants were of gentry stock with money that
    allowed them to invest their time in such adventures. That America did become a melting pot in that there was extreme cross-class marriage and interactions compared to Europe. So you can come up with a list of a few hundred folks with known royal
    ancestry that have millions of living descendants who care.

    "Germany", or central Europe in general, on the other hand, did not have the same level of class mobility where you would expect a random farmer to ever be three generations removed from nobility (at least not recorded in records). You also don't have
    anywhere near the ready access to surviving records as England for the pre-1500 period. Trying to trace barely significant individuals in 14th or 15th century central europe is beyond daunting. Before 1600 in Wittgenstein, for example, folks would be
    in militialists just as "Abraham" or "Georg" with no other descriptor...maybe an occupation; and maybe a house (physical house structure) name if you are lucky. In England, it was much earlier...the process to have "family" name identifiers in records
    was entrenched by 1350, and true surnames were ubiquitous by 1400 in England.

    ---Joe Cook

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From vcczar@21:1/5 to joe...@gmail.com on Sun Oct 30 13:20:22 2022
    On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 3:44:50 PM UTC-4, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 3:40:29 PM UTC-4, joseph cook wrote:
    On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 3:14:58 PM UTC-4, FELIX E-E PFEIFLE wrote:
    On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 6:27:33 PM UTC-4, vcczar wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I'm well-aware of royal ancesty books by Gary Boyd Roberts and Douglas Richardson for American royal descent. However, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any books for Germans (non-American) of royal descent, say leading back to Charlemagne. I'm
    not sure how "gateway ancestors" would work in this regard. Anyway, just a shot in the dark question.
    America is a weird situation that a limited number of 17th century founders (about 20,000 in New England) became the ancestors tens of millions of Americans today; and a relatively high proportion of these immigrants were of gentry stock with money
    that allowed them to invest their time in such adventures. That America did become a melting pot in that there was extreme cross-class marriage and interactions compared to Europe. So you can come up with a list of a few hundred folks with known royal
    ancestry that have millions of living descendants who care.

    "Germany", or central Europe in general, on the other hand, did not have the same level of class mobility where you would expect a random farmer to ever be three generations removed from nobility (at least not recorded in records). You also don't
    have anywhere near the ready access to surviving records as England for the pre-1500 period. Trying to trace barely significant individuals in 14th or 15th century central europe is beyond daunting. Before 1600 in Wittgenstein, for example, folks would
    be in militialists just as "Abraham" or "Georg" with no other descriptor...maybe an occupation; and maybe a house (physical house structure) name if you are lucky. In England, it was much earlier...the process to have "family" name identifiers in records
    was entrenched by 1350, and true surnames were ubiquitous by 1400 in England.

    It's also probably worth noting that England has been a country with continuous legal framework basically since 1066; with legal records existing since that time in centralized and well maintained repositories.

    Compare to this map of "Germany" 1600

    https://external-preview.redd.it/XmNUsWtfieHEZlgqTroBb9MGICqazBBD1HVWnwpNE6g.jpg?auto=webp&s=904e2bfaf8f3a16a9266eec53012c5527571e0a1

    a mish-mash of local authorities. Then the 30 years war came through to mash it up even more.
    --Joe Cook

    I figured as much, but I was just hoping there was some known documented attempt to capture royal ancestry among "common" German families.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Enno Borgsteede@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 31 13:18:42 2022
    Op 30-10-2022 om 21:20 schreef vcczar:

    I figured as much, but I was just hoping there was some known documented attempt to capture royal ancestry among "common" German families.

    If it exists, the best place to look for it is probably here:

    https://www.compgen.de/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)