On Jun 26, 3:22 pm, "d_sew...@verizon.net" <d_sew...@verizon.net>
wrote:
Would someone please comment on whether or not Richard Warren is
connected with the aristocratic English family Warren/de Warenne?
David Sewallcaleb johnson's mayflower website is pretty up to date on current
Orono, Maine USA
genealogy of the pilgrims. if i recall, the main reason people have
thought in the past that richard warren was of gentry origin was his
name - other than that i don't remember any particular fact that
implied a better than average social standing...but as i am not a
warren i havent looked into it with great detail
adrian
Mayflower historian, Louise Walsh Throop - compiler of the Descendants of George Soule "pink Books" - has now identified the father of Richard Warren of The Mayflower as John Warren - armorer. Birth records for children of John Warren, includingRichard b. 15 Jan 1579/80, bap. 24 Jan 1579/80 are cited as from:
A Register of all the Christenings, Burials and Weddings, Parish of Saint Peter’s upon
Cornhill” (London, 1877) Vol. 1 p. 21 [abbreviated: St. Peter’s]; see FHL Film #845228:26
The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) Warren
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 12:42:07 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:Richard b. 15 Jan 1579/80, bap. 24 Jan 1579/80 are cited as from:
Mayflower historian, Louise Walsh Throop - compiler of the Descendants of George Soule "pink Books" - has now identified the father of Richard Warren of The Mayflower as John Warren - armorer. Birth records for children of John Warren, including
A Register of all the Christenings, Burials and Weddings, Parish of Saint Peter’s upon
Cornhill” (London, 1877) Vol. 1 p. 21 [abbreviated: St. Peter’s]; see FHL Film #845228:26
The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) WarrenIs there any actual evidence that the Mayflower passenger was the person in this baptism, or is this just a case of finding a baptism for someone of the right name and general chronology?
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 12:42:07 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:Richard b. 15 Jan 1579/80, bap. 24 Jan 1579/80 are cited as from:
Mayflower historian, Louise Walsh Throop - compiler of the Descendants of George Soule "pink Books" - has now identified the father of Richard Warren of The Mayflower as John Warren - armorer. Birth records for children of John Warren, including
www.camayflower.orgA Register of all the Christenings, Burials and Weddings, Parish of Saint Peter’s upon
Cornhill” (London, 1877) Vol. 1 p. 21 [abbreviated: St. Peter’s]; see FHL Film #845228:26
The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) WarrenIs there any actual evidence that the Mayflower passenger was the person in this baptism, or is this just a case of finding a baptism for someone of the right name and general chronology?
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 12:42:07 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:Richard b. 15 Jan 1579/80, bap. 24 Jan 1579/80 are cited as from:
Mayflower historian, Louise Walsh Throop - compiler of the Descendants of George Soule "pink Books" - has now identified the father of Richard Warren of The Mayflower as John Warren - armorer. Birth records for children of John Warren, including
A Register of all the Christenings, Burials and Weddings, Parish of Saint Peter’s upon
Cornhill” (London, 1877) Vol. 1 p. 21 [abbreviated: St. Peter’s]; see FHL Film #845228:26
The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) WarrenIs there any actual evidence that the Mayflower passenger was the person in this baptism, or is this just a case of finding a baptism for someone of the right name and general chronology?
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 4:30:24 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:Richard b. 15 Jan 1579/80, bap. 24 Jan 1579/80 are cited as from:
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 12:42:07 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
Mayflower historian, Louise Walsh Throop - compiler of the Descendants of George Soule "pink Books" - has now identified the father of Richard Warren of The Mayflower as John Warren - armorer. Birth records for children of John Warren, including
A Register of all the Christenings, Burials and Weddings, Parish of Saint Peter’s upon
Cornhill” (London, 1877) Vol. 1 p. 21 [abbreviated: St. Peter’s]; see FHL Film #845228:26
Some not horrible Circumstantial thinking.The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) WarrenIs there any actual evidence that the Mayflower passenger was the person in this baptism, or is this just a case of finding a baptism for someone of the right name and general chronology?
www.camayflower.org
See p.18 in Fall 2022 CA Mayflower Quarterly
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 12:42:07 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:Richard b. 15 Jan 1579/80, bap. 24 Jan 1579/80 are cited as from:
Mayflower historian, Louise Walsh Throop - compiler of the Descendants of George Soule "pink Books" - has now identified the father of Richard Warren of The Mayflower as John Warren - armorer. Birth records for children of John Warren, including
Some not horrible Circumstantial thinking.A Register of all the Christenings, Burials and Weddings, Parish of Saint Peter’s upon
Cornhill” (London, 1877) Vol. 1 p. 21 [abbreviated: St. Peter’s]; see FHL Film #845228:26
The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) WarrenIs there any actual evidence that the Mayflower passenger was the person in this baptism, or is this just a case of finding a baptism for someone of the right name and general chronology?
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 2:49:01 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
"Onomastic clues !indicate!...." uh, no there are no onomastic clues in the third son being named Johnwww.camayflower.orgI apologize for not understanding the workings of this board. Seems rather antiquated, as am I. https://www.camayflower.org/uploads/1/2/5/1/125178701/mayflower_quarterly-fall_2022.pdf
See p.18 in Fall 2022 CA Mayflower Quarterly
This is nineteenth century reasoning.
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 5:18:33 PM UTC-4, ps bumppo wrote:Richard b. 15 Jan 1579/80, bap. 24 Jan 1579/80 are cited as from:
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 4:30:24 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 12:42:07 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
Mayflower historian, Louise Walsh Throop - compiler of the Descendants of George Soule "pink Books" - has now identified the father of Richard Warren of The Mayflower as John Warren - armorer. Birth records for children of John Warren, including
A Register of all the Christenings, Burials and Weddings, Parish of Saint Peter’s upon
Cornhill” (London, 1877) Vol. 1 p. 21 [abbreviated: St. Peter’s]; see FHL Film #845228:26
Some not horrible Circumstantial thinking.The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) WarrenIs there any actual evidence that the Mayflower passenger was the person in this baptism, or is this just a case of finding a baptism for someone of the right name and general chronology?
www.camayflower.orgI apologize for not understanding the workings of this board. Seems rather antiquated, as am I. https://www.camayflower.org/uploads/1/2/5/1/125178701/mayflower_quarterly-fall_2022.pdf
See p.18 in Fall 2022 CA Mayflower Quarterly
Some not horrible Circumstantial thinking.The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) WarrenIs there any actual evidence that the Mayflower passenger was the person in this baptism, or is this just a case of finding a baptism for someone of the right name and general chronology?
www.camayflower.orgI apologize for not understanding the workings of this board. Seems rather antiquated, as am I. https://www.camayflower.org/uploads/1/2/5/1/125178701/mayflower_quarterly-fall_2022.pdf
See p.18 in Fall 2022 CA Mayflower Quarterly
entirely. Almost the very next sentence is "Thus there is no doubt that the parents of Richard Warren, passenger in 1620 on the Mayflower, were John and [Lettes] Warren.". No doubt?! Strong words, indeed! The only evidence given to this point is that theSome not horrible Circumstantial thinking.The wife of this John Warren is cited as Lettice/Lettes (MNU) WarrenIs there any actual evidence that the Mayflower passenger was the person in this baptism, or is this just a case of finding a baptism for someone of the right name and general chronology?
Thank you for this link. As a Richard Warren descendant my thoughts are:www.camayflower.orgI apologize for not understanding the workings of this board. Seems rather antiquated, as am I. https://www.camayflower.org/uploads/1/2/5/1/125178701/mayflower_quarterly-fall_2022.pdf
See p.18 in Fall 2022 CA Mayflower Quarterly
If Richard Warren is the Richard Warren of the 15 Jan 1579/80 baptism, then he was born in London, but married age 30 in Hertford. The article says he married older because his father died when he was young. But this is entirely circular reasoning
There were probably 10 Richard Warrens baptized to John Warrens in London alone between 1577 and 1588, and the link of Richard Warren to London is extremely tenuous to begin with.Warren did not have a known son named John as evidence of strong naming patterns.
If naming patterns were so strong in the Warren family, let's look at Richard Warren's other son Joseph. Were his kids named Richard, <maternal grandfather>, John? No, in fact they were Joseph and Benjamin. Hmm. Of course, not to mention that Richard
There is some discussion on a sword, and the argument is made that anyone who owned a sword in New England must be descended from a knight or an armorer? I don't understand this logic.avenues to investigate.
Please don't take my tone as attacking; the discussion is interesting and it is good to see the suggestion and work through it. If there really are other associations between John Warren, armorer, and Great Amwell, those may very well be fruitful
But at this time I do not agree with the author that there is "no doubt" that the father of Richard Warren is proven.
--Joe Cook
A quick search of the parish records from the London Metropolitan Archives available on Ancestry.com suggests that there were at least six children named Richard Warren baptized in greater London between 1575 and 1595. One of them is indeed the one atSt Peter Upon Cornhill selected by the author of the article.
The book of transcriptions of the parish records of St Peter upon Cornhill has two entries concerning Richard Warren in addition to the entries mentioned by the author of the article recently published by the California Mayflower Society:records. They are listed in the index of the book. She did notice the burial of the Cornhill Richard's brother William in 1619.
https://archive.org/details/registerofallchr01lond/page/182/mode/1up
p. 182
1624
November 16 Buried Richard Warren free of the Cutlers dwelling in Gracechurchstreete pit in the Liberary Coff'
image of original record on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/1624/images/31281_a102156-00162?pId=7889365
https://archive.org/details/registerofallchr01lond/page/64/mode/1up
p. 64
1615[/16]
March 6 Wednesday Luke Warren the sonne of Richard Warren Cutler in Gracechurch streete
image of original record on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/1624/images/31281_a102156-00039?pId=7887338
These two records suggest that it is unlikely that Richard Warren, son of John Warren and his wife Lettice of St Peter upon Cornhill, was the same man as the Mayflower passenger. It seems odd that the author of the article didn't mention these two
Almost the very next sentence is "Thus there is no doubt that the parents<snip>
of Richard Warren, passenger in 1620 on the Mayflower, were John and
[Lettes] Warren.". No doubt?! Strong words, indeed! The only evidence given to this point is that the 3rd son of Richard's son Nathaniel was named John, so Richard's father would have to be named John; and THIS John has to be
the one because he is in London. Any one of those assumptions quite
tenuous, and do not strengthen with aggregation.
If naming patterns were so strong in the Warren family, let's look at Richard Warren's other son Joseph. Were his kids named Richard, <maternal grandfather>, John? No, in fact they were Joseph and Benjamin. Hmm. Of course, not to mention that Richard Warren did not have a known son named John as evidence of strong naming patterns.
But at this time I do not agree with the author that there is "no doubt" that the
father of Richard Warren is proven.
On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 8:16:06 PM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote:likelihood that they would choose to memorialize him. The name that would be diagnostic is Lettes, and of RIchard's five known daughters, and something like 38 granddaughters, exactly zero bore this name, while one finds the name Mercy given 5
Almost the very next sentence is "Thus there is no doubt that the parents of Richard Warren, passenger in 1620 on the Mayflower, were John and [Lettes] Warren.". No doubt?! Strong words, indeed! The only evidence given<snip>
to this point is that the 3rd son of Richard's son Nathaniel was named John,
so Richard's father would have to be named John; and THIS John has to be the one because he is in London. Any one of those assumptions quite tenuous, and do not strengthen with aggregation.
If naming patterns were so strong in the Warren family, let's look at RichardAt this time and place, no onomastic arguments should be made based on John - it was too common, and the Pilgrims did not follow traditional onomastic patterns. Also, given that neither of Richard's sons knew their grandfather, there is a reduced
Warren's other son Joseph. Were his kids named Richard, <maternal grandfather>, John? No, in fact they were Joseph and Benjamin. Hmm. Of course, not to mention that Richard Warren did not have a known son named John as evidence of strong naming patterns.
not the strongest (and just to be clear, I am speaking generically - I have not had time to read the specific article in question yet). Wikipedia now has a source to cite, the online genealogies will all copy it one to the other, with scholars whoBut at this time I do not agree with the author that there is "no doubt" that theUnfortunately, you will be in the minority. The origin of Richard Warren will doubtless be _taken as proven_ by the genealogical community. Once an argument like this gets published in a flagship journal, it becomes the default solution, even if it is
father of Richard Warren is proven.
I hope you are wrong,
I wholeheartedly reject the idea that any 17th century owner of a sword
much be descended from a knight or an armorer.
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