In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundellerected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been
The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in
The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
At this point, the following extra information is available
• Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
• There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
• The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
• Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
• Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
• Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
• Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules,
• Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kentresulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
• A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have
This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently
During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422)
If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I justneeded to find the descent to Thomas.
Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, thenplease let me know.
It seemed a brick wall.in Exeter.
Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre
Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, andleaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/
The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
• Wikipedia (very briefly)
• Geni (very patchy)
• The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
• St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
• St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
• Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an
The case for Thomas depends on;being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
• Dates are right
• “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
• he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
• Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
Edward and Joan had children as follows;
• William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
• Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until
• Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See aboveCharing?
I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in
Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
• Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he
Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
• Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads
• John St John c1322-bef 1380widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
• Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
• Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
• Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s
The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver
• Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe
The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de LuccombeLuccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth
The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems tohave the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help! Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
.
********************************************************************* Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter
The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A majorextra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.Maud FitzNigel.
One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as
There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be
1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
Children as follows;
• John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
• William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
• Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
• Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
• Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
• Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
• Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
• Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
Alexander St John references
• 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
• 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
• 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
• 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one
• 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.Hello Mr. Piper, will you email me please stjohngenealogy AT gmail dot com.
• 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
All feedback welcome!
Colin Piper
Do you have a specific source for the 1534 year ?
I note that the Vis Devon says "8th son Ao 1534"
I have always taken the Ao notation to mean that he is so-called this in that year
Not specifically that he died that year
In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 11:04:35 AM UTC-4, Colin Piper wrote:
In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 10:33:08 PM UTC-5, mk wrote:Alice + aft 1405 and which were later passed to his great granddaughters Eleanor Dering and Constance Goring.
On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 11:04:35 AM UTC-4, Colin Piper wrote:further to above, I note this source agrees with your placement of Thomas.
In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=SSH0019&tree=OSA0001
Of interest, the manor of Shelve, which came to William St. John +1439 (from his mother Alice de Rokesley) is very near Charing. William also held the Barlavington manors which came to him from Eve St. John +1354 via his parents Edward +ca 1398 and
There are some Edwards in the de Port-St. John family as well. One who married an Eve. Do you know the relationship of the Eve you mentioned?
On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 3:56:54 PM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:
found the last two or three days. There's clearly a connection with Eve Dawtry, wife of the Sir Edward who died 1347, though I don't know if she is the Eve you meant.There are some Edwards in the de Port-St. John family as well. One who married an Eve. Do you know the relationship of the Eve you mentioned?I've been trying to piece together the line of Edward and Alice (Rokesley/Ruxly) this week. I've made profiles of them on Wikitree, so perhaps this will trigger some input from other St. John researchers. They are very rough, so far, just what I've
Have a look and lmk if you have anything that might be relevant. I think there's enough to connect Edward, husband of Alice, with the manors of Barlavington, etc. which his son William passes to his daughter Elizabeth (see particularly the ipm of thelatter).
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Saint_John-136Monica,
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Rokesley-9
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_John-5440
The connection to Eve Dawtry would make that a de Port-St. John line https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I10660&tree=OSA0001 (based on other's claims. I haven't researched this much myself)OSA0001
But after re-reading some notes on that page, it's possible this is the one that actually married Eve Dawtry (uncle to one above which would leave a wife spot open to be Alice Rokesley) https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I105552079&tree=
Suzanne St. John
On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 5:21:50 PM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:tree=OSA0001
The connection to Eve Dawtry would make that a de Port-St. John line https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I10660&tree=OSA0001 (based on other's claims. I haven't researched this much myself)
But after re-reading some notes on that page, it's possible this is the one that actually married Eve Dawtry (uncle to one above which would leave a wife spot open to be Alice Rokesley) https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I105552079&
Suzanne St. JohnI don't understand what you mean by leaving a wife spot open. I don't think Edward who married Alice also married Eve.
Specifically, right now I'm looking for the descent of these manors in the inheritance of Eve Dawtry:
Bewgenet, Barlavington and Lurgatsale Byworth, Cotes, Warnycampe, Eggden, Northmerden, Fitelworth and Petworth.
These all turn up in the i.p.m. of Elizabeth St John Dyke Hussey Massey +1506 daughter of William, +1439 son of Edward and Alice Rokesley
Then to her son by her first marriage, Henry Dyke
Then to his son Thomas
He must have died young, as his sisters Constance Dyke Goring and Eleanor Dyke Dering are next heirs
On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 5:21:50 PM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:tree=OSA0001
The connection to Eve Dawtry would make that a de Port-St. John line https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I10660&tree=OSA0001 (based on other's claims. I haven't researched this much myself)
But after re-reading some notes on that page, it's possible this is the one that actually married Eve Dawtry (uncle to one above which would leave a wife spot open to be Alice Rokesley) https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I105552079&
Suzanne St. JohnI don't understand what you mean by leaving a wife spot open. I don't think Edward who married Alice also married Eve.
Specifically, right now I'm looking for the descent of these manors in the inheritance of Eve Dawtry:
Bewgenet, Barlavington and Lurgatsale Byworth, Cotes, Warnycampe, Eggden, Northmerden, Fitelworth and Petworth.
These all turn up in the i.p.m. of Elizabeth St John Dyke Hussey Massey +1506 daughter of William, +1439 son of Edward and Alice Rokesley
Then to her son by her first marriage, Henry Dyke
Then to his son Thomas
He must have died young, as his sisters Constance Dyke Goring and Eleanor Dyke Dering are next heirs
The nephew "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' " could then be the husband to your Alice Rokesley.
John St. John m. Alice FitzPiers
1) Roger m. Joan Hevere 2) Edward m. Eva Dawtry Paynell 3) John
Both of these brothers had sons named Edward.
1) Edward son of Roger aka "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' m. [Alice de Rokesley?] /// 2) Edward son of Edward m. Anastatia Aton /// 3) Edward [alleged son of John] m. [Alice de Rokesley?]
I have no info to support John having a son named Edward. Although, it does appear Cockayne may have guessed when he placed Edward 'the nephew' under Roger.
I have created a profile for Alice [de Rokesley] and have her placed temporarily married to both. https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I12437&tree=OSA0001
On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 10:36:23 AM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:
to the former Edward, but now suspect that Edward = Alice is likely another. He clearly is the conduit by which Eve's manors came to his granddaughter Elizabeth +1506. I don't know why they would have gone to the Basing branch, though if there was aThe nephew "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' " could then be the husband to your Alice Rokesley.
John St. John m. Alice FitzPiers
1) Roger m. Joan Hevere 2) Edward m. Eva Dawtry Paynell 3) John
Both of these brothers had sons named Edward.
1) Edward son of Roger aka "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' m. [Alice de Rokesley?] /// 2) Edward son of Edward m. Anastatia Aton /// 3) Edward [alleged son of John] m. [Alice de Rokesley?]
I have no info to support John having a son named Edward. Although, it does appear Cockayne may have guessed when he placed Edward 'the nephew' under Roger.Edward the nephew married Joan and died s.p. ca. 1384, so it can't be him. Also, he doesn't seem to have any connection to he Barlavington manors.
I have created a profile for Alice [de Rokesley] and have her placed temporarily married to both. https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I12437&tree=OSA0001
There are mentions of an Edward, son of John. There might be two of these, one the grandson of Sir John who married Isabel de Courtenay, and the other the grandson of Edward and Eve. I had previously assumed all mentions of Edward son of John belonged
Reference: C 241/158/60which Edward dying September 16 1438. his Heir was Elizabeth, Married first to Goring; whence the Gorings of Burton in that County, Baronets; and Secondly to Hussee, and Thirdly to Massie.”
Description:
Debtor: Edward, the son of John St John [held part of a fee in Stopham, Rotherbridge Hundred, Sussex]
Creditor: Sir Edward St. John, lord of Laundesburgh.
Amount: £100, on account of a loan.
When taken: 02/05/1375...
Date: 1376 Jun 10
But it seems as if there was a line from Edward and Eve's son John to explain the descent of the manors.
“From John de St. John, Brother to Sir Edward, Lord of Barlavington, descended the St. Johns of Barlavington in Sussex, bearing Argent on a Chief indented Gules, 3 Mullets Or. whereof was Edward, who had Issue William de St. John, Lord of the same;
Notitia St. Johanniana: or, Genealogical and historical ... - Page 24
And by 1390, both Edward the uncle (of Barlavington) and Edward the nephew (of Stopham) were both dead, so if this reference indicates that Sir Edward was still alive, it was probably the one who was Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex and married to Alice.
Reference: C 241/179/94
Description: Debtor: William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent [Calehill Hundred]
Creditor: Edward St John {Seyntion}, knight, of Sussex [held fee in Barlavington, Rotherbridge Hundred, Sussex, and in Linch, Easebourne Hundred, Sussex] and elsewhere in Sussex.
...Last term: 24/06/1374
Writ to: Sheriff of Kent
Sent by: John Roper, Mayor of the Staple of Sandwich.
Endorsement: Kanc' Coram d'no Rege in Cancellar' sua in quindena Martini. Date: 1390 Oct 21
On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have
three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long inThe relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
At this point, the following extra information is available
• Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
• There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
• The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
• Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
• Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
• Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
• Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules,
resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!• Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
• A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have
the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequentlyThis research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422)
needed to find the descent to Thomas.If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just
please let me know.Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then
Centre in Exeter.It seemed a brick wall.
Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage
leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and
earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
• Wikipedia (very briefly)
• Geni (very patchy)
• The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
• St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
• St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
• Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an
until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.The case for Thomas depends on;
• Dates are right
• “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
• he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
• Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
Edward and Joan had children as follows;
• William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
• Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years
in Charing?• Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated
titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
• Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he
to the St John’s of Bletso. See belowHenry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
• Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads
widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.• John St John c1322-bef 1380
• Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
• Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
• Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s
Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail toThe detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
• Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East
Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth
to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems
and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
.
********************************************************************* Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter
extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major
as Maud FitzNigel.Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni
Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or beThere are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
Children as follows;
• John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
• William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
• Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
• Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
• Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
• Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
• Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
• Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
Alexander St John references
• 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
• 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
• 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
• 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one
antiquarian. Both were active in the late 16th and early 17th centuries and were friends of one another. Both produced Cotton family pedigrees from roughly the same time during the early 17th century. The two pedigrees, however, differ significantly in• 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
• 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
All feedback welcome!
Colin PiperYou have done an impressive amount of work at a time I have been working on the same problem from a different angle. The two earliest surviving Cotton family pedigrees are by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton and the other William Burton (1575-1645), a noted
In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundellerected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been
The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in
The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
At this point, the following extra information is available
• Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
• There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
• The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
• Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
• Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
• Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
• Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules,
• Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kentresulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
• A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have
This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently
During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422)
If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I justneeded to find the descent to Thomas.
Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, thenplease let me know.
It seemed a brick wall.in Exeter.
Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre
Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, andleaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/
The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
• Wikipedia (very briefly)
• Geni (very patchy)
• The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
• St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
• St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
• Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an
The case for Thomas depends on;being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
• Dates are right
• “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
• he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
• Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
Edward and Joan had children as follows;
• William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
• Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until
• Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See aboveCharing?
I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in
Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
• Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he
Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
• Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads
• John St John c1322-bef 1380widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
• Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
• Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
• Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s
The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver
• Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe
The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de LuccombeLuccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth
The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems tohave the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help! Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
.
********************************************************************* Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter
The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A majorextra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.Maud FitzNigel.
One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as
There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be
1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
Children as follows;
• John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
• William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
• Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
• Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
• Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
• Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
• Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
• Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
Alexander St John references
• 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
• 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
• 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
• 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one
• 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.You have done an impressive amount of work at a time I have been working on the same problem from a different angle. The two earliest surviving Cotton family pedigrees are by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton and the other William Burton (1575-1645), a noted
• 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
All feedback welcome!
Colin Piper
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