On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 1:43:46 PM UTC-4, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 at 12:22:51 AM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sep 10, 3:36 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
While researching the ancestry of Margaret Berney, wife of Edward
Paston of Appleton Hall (ancestors of Princess Diana), I made use of
the 2004 edition of Plantagenet Ancestry, which has 3 generations of Margaret's Berney ancestors on page 412 (sub Jennings).
A little further research on my own showed that the Berney accounts in PA3/RPA had quite a few errors & omissions, so I figured I'd take a break from lines of descent and do one of my PA3/RPA Corrections
posts.
Let's start with the earliest Berney generation: Margaret Wentworth is married, as his 2nd wife, to John Berney, son of John Berney of
Reedham, Norfolk & Elizabeth, dau of Osbert Mundeford of Hockford.
John Berney's first wife was Alice, dau of Richard Southwell of Woodrising, and John died 27 October 1536. By 2nd wife Margaret Wentworth he had 2 sons, and she was living in 1532. Almost
everything in the account contains error.
1) Terry Booth, in a post he made to the newsgroup last year, showed that no daughter of Osbert Mountford married a John Berney but rather Elizabeth, the widow of Thomas Berney (died 1441) married, as her 2nd husband, Osbert Mountford. Nor was this Elizabeth the mother of the
John Berney who married Margaret Wentworh:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/bf237377408...
2) Alice Southwell was not the first wife of the John Berney who
married Margaret Wentworth (who appears to have been his sole wife),
but was rather his mother (or possibly step-mother). Per a well- researched website on the Berneys, the IPM for John Berney of Reedham (the father of the John who married Margaret Wentworth) was taken on
22 November 1506. John the father died on 6 January 1506, leaving a
wife Alice, and a son and heir John who was aged 21 and more (so born
by 1485):http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSIT...
The website has this Alice as Alice Southwell & the mother of John.
That may not be accurate, and further research is warranted. There
was a Sir Richard Southwell of Woodrising (1502-1564), who has a bio
in ODNB, and who was son of Francis Southwell of Wymondham (d. 1512).
It seems likely that Alice, the wife of John Berney of Reedham (d.
1506) was of the family of Francis Southwell, but I don't know how she fits in exactly.
[snip]
A couple of belated points on this useful discussion of the Berney
family:
1) Colin Richmond, in his work "The Paston family in the Fifteenth Century: The First Phase" (1990, cited in Terry Booth's post mentioned above) gives the following sequence for the Berneys, with marriages as indicated:
1. Thomas Berney (d. 1441), m. Elizabeth Clipsby (who m. (2) Osbert Mundeford)
[the Clipsby identification is apparently supported by the 1563
Norfolk vistation and a reference in Blomefield's Norfolk]
2. John Berney (d. 1473), m. Elizabeth Yelverton (sister of William,
who is mentioned in John Berney's will as his "brother" [i.e., brother- in-law])
3. John Berney, m. Alice Southwell [last generation covered by
Richmond]
2) With respect to Alice Southwell, two different published editions
of the 1563 visitation of Norfolk identify her parents as Richard Southwell of Woodrising and Amy Wichingham. She was thus a sister of
the Francis Southwell whom you mention above. There is potential for confusion here, as she apparently had a sister Anne or Amy married to Ralph Berney of Wichingham - a different line of the Berney family.
3) Although several secondary sources (including Blomefield and also Wotton's and Betham's baronetages - all cited by RPA) say that one
John Berney married (1) Alice Southwell and (2) Margaret Wentworth, as reported in RPA, the visitation pedigree 9also cited by RPA) says
there were two John Berneys, each with one wife - and the information
on their wills in the database you cited seems to clearly support
this. Thanks for pointing this out - along with the other
corrections.
I am currently working on the Berney line back from my ancestor Thomasine (Berney) Osborne, d. of John Berney of Reedham, Esq. and Margaret Reade.
Normally this line is much discussed from the parents of John Berney, husband of Margaret Wentworth and later because of her Magna Carta ancestry. Not discussed nearly as much is the complete mess that Blomefield and Wotton leave in their wake with an
amazing amount of inaccuracies starting from Henry Berney/Catherine Harsike/Harsick of Berney's Inn, Norfolk.
I am trying my best to comb through the notes given from ANDREW-N-BOLS AKA the "Berney website", and he clearly had access to wills and other documents that are not available online. If any of you are still working on the Berney of Reedham line, please
let me know. This is what I am working with at the moment (in pencil):
Henry Berney m. Catherine Harsike, d. of Sir John Harsike (per Blomefield) Richard Berney m. Alice de Edgefield (their son John specifically mentions them both as his parents in his will)
John Berney m. Sarah Bateman d. of Bartholomew Bateman (per Blomefield) Thomas Berney m. Margaret de Reedham, d. of Sir William de Reedham and Margaret Caston, d. of Sir Robert Caston.
John Berney m. Isabel Heveningham, d. of Sir John Heveningham (per Blomefield)
Thomas Berney m. Elizabeth Clipsby, d. of John Clipsby, Esq. (per Blomefield)
John Berney m. Catherine Mundeford (per Blomefield) ??? This one is bizarre...
John Berney m. Alice (Southwell?)
John Berney m. Margaret Wentworth
I am REALLY hoping to get some feedback... the Clipsby pedigree is worse than this!
Darrell
A couple of notes which bear mentioning-
[1] From Hundred of Wayland: CASTON
"Holdich's arms. Berney, Heveningham, and Gissing.
Caston quartering Berney.
Berney with an annulet sab.
Caston, gul. a chevron between three eagles displayed arg. The same with a label az. The same with a mullet sab."
Based upon the timeline, these arms must represent John Berney who married Isabel Heveningham, for:
John Berney, s. of Thomas Berney and Margaret de Reedham, heiress of Sir William de Reedham and Margaret Caston, who m. Isabel Heveningham, d. of Sir John Heveningham (1313-1375) and Joan Gissing, d. and heiress of Sir Thomas Gissing.
Francis Blomefield, 'Hundred of Wayland: Caston', in An Essay Towards A Topographical History of the County of Norfolk: Volume 2 (London, 1805), pp. 282-286. British History Online
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol2/pp282-
286 [accessed 28 July 2022].
[2] From Freebridge Hundred: WIGENHALE ST MARY MAGDALEN
"And about the church, the arms of Kervile, Scales, Berney, Gissing, Heveningham, Lord Lovell, Bovile, and a griffin segreant."
These arms represent half of the above arms as noted in [1]. I have yet to identify how the other families fit, but this is a major clue which could lead to a breakthrough.
Francis Blomefield, 'Freebridge Hundred: Wigenhale St. Mary Magdalen', in An Essay Towards A Topographical History of the County of Norfolk: Volume 9 (London, 1808), pp. 168-176. British History Online
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-
norfolk/vol9/pp168-176 [accessed 28 July 2022].
Darrell
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