I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern scholarship,This late and contradictory source is clearly worse than the early sources. However, because of the lack of a documented marriage for Giselbert and the fact that he was said to have died a iuvenis, modern scholars decided to take this source and make
Otgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert. However, a late source made her sister of the sons of Frédéric though it also called her daughter of Giselbert.
A quarta-feira, 27 de julho de 2022 à(s) 00:33:53 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:This late and contradictory source is clearly worse than the early sources. However, because of the lack of a documented marriage for Giselbert and the fact that he was said to have died a iuvenis, modern scholars decided to take this source and make
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern scholarship,
Otgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert. However, a late source made her sister of the sons of Frédéric though it also called her daughter of Giselbert.
I, myself, am extremely inclined towards believing Otgiva and Giséle were daughters of Giselbert.
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern scholarship,This late and contradictory source is clearly worse than the early sources. However, because of the lack of a documented marriage for Giselbert and the fact that he was said to have died a iuvenis, modern scholars decided to take this source and make
Otgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert. However, a late source made her sister of the sons of Frédéric though it also called her daughter of Giselbert.
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern scholarship,
Otgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert.
On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:33:53 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern scholarship,
Otgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert.For those who prefer to cite something from the printed literature, I also wrote an article on the same subject, which was published in “The American Genealogist.”
See the article Stewart Baldwin, “The Parentage of Otgiva ‘of Luxemburg’: An Unsolved Tenth- and Eleventh-Century Problem,” TAG 83 (2008): 116–21.
Stewart Baldwin
Op woensdag 27 juli 2022 om 17:46:49 UTC+2 schreef Stewart Baldwin:scholarship,
On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:33:53 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern
Otgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert.For those who prefer to cite something from the printed literature, I also wrote an article on the same subject, which was published in “The American Genealogist.”
See the article Stewart Baldwin, “The Parentage of Otgiva ‘of Luxemburg’: An Unsolved Tenth- and Eleventh-Century Problem,” TAG 83 (2008): 116–21.
Stewart BaldwinHi Stewart,
How does a non-American get access to your article? Can it be read digitally or otherwise received?
Met vriendelijke groet,
Hans Vogels
Op woensdag 27 juli 2022 om 17:46:49 UTC+2 schreef Stewart Baldwin:scholarship,
On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:33:53 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern
I read past issues on with a subscription to American Ancestors. They have a number of different periodicals available digitally, although they may not be the most current years. The website is AmericanAncestors.org and formerly was New England HistoricOtgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert.For those who prefer to cite something from the printed literature, I also wrote an article on the same subject, which was published in “The American Genealogist.”
See the article Stewart Baldwin, “The Parentage of Otgiva ‘of Luxemburg’: An Unsolved Tenth- and Eleventh-Century Problem,” TAG 83 (2008): 116–21.
Stewart BaldwinHi Stewart,
How does a non-American get access to your article? Can it be read digitally or otherwise received?
Met vriendelijke groet,
Hans Vogels
On 27-Jul-22 9:34 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:scholarship,
A quarta-feira, 27 de julho de 2022 à(s) 00:33:53 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern
This late and contradictory source is clearly worse than the early sources. However, because of the lack of a documented marriage for Giselbert and the fact that he was said to have died a iuvenis, modern scholars decided to take this source and makeOtgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert. However, a late source made her sister of the sons of Frédéric though it also called her daughter of Giselbert.
On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 1:15:15 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:scholarship,
On 27-Jul-22 9:34 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quarta-feira, 27 de julho de 2022 à(s) 00:33:53 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern
This late and contradictory source is clearly worse than the early sources. However, because of the lack of a documented marriage for Giselbert and the fact that he was said to have died a iuvenis, modern scholars decided to take this source and makeOtgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert. However, a late source made her sister of the sons of Frédéric though it also called her daughter of Giselbert.
I just wondered why her name is thought to be 'English'? I remember that the name of Eadgifu the mother
of Louis IV is rendered in a number of ways in the sources, including Otgive or Odgiva. Did the
name Otgiva have no history on the continent before her and is Otgiva of Lux the only other example?
On 29-Jul-22 2:07 AM, mike davis wrote:scholarship,
On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 1:15:15 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 27-Jul-22 9:34 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quarta-feira, 27 de julho de 2022 à(s) 00:33:53 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern
This late and contradictory source is clearly worse than the early sources. However, because of the lack of a documented marriage for Giselbert and the fact that he was said to have died a iuvenis, modern scholars decided to take this source and makeOtgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert. However, a late source made her sister of the sons of Frédéric though it also called her daughter of Giselbert.
I just wondered why her name is thought to be 'English'? I remember that the name of Eadgifu the motherI'm not aware of other instances, though I haven't searched - Eadgifu
of Louis IV is rendered in a number of ways in the sources, including Otgive or Odgiva. Did the
name Otgiva have no history on the continent before her and is Otgiva of Lux the only other example?
was called "Ottogeba" by Flodoard and "Otgiva" by Witger, both writing
in the mid-10th century, but her name does not appear to have been given
to any documented descendants.
In the following century the lady herself was addressed as Otgiva in a letter from Othelbold, abbot of Saint-Bavon in Ghent. The possibility of descent from the former Eadgifu's namesake paternal half-sister who is
said to have married "Louis, a prince in Aquitaine", and whose mother
was also Eadgifu, is a ready-made invitation to conjecture - but the
same name could have come from England independently of a royal bride.
Peter Stewart
--Deter Peter, Stewart Baldwin conjectured in 2006 at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/oldxIGHi0os/m/HsI4JIk6U0gJ that Giselbert's wife might have been Mathilde of Burgundy, daughter of King Conrad of Burgundy and Mathilde of France, daughter of Louis IV of France and granddaghter of
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A sexta-feira, 29 de julho de 2022 à(s) 01:20:52 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:scholarship,
On 29-Jul-22 2:07 AM, mike davis wrote:
On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 1:15:15 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 27-Jul-22 9:34 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quarta-feira, 27 de julho de 2022 à(s) 00:33:53 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
I know this has previously been discussed on the newsgroup, but years later, I'd like to know your current opinions: Stewart Baldwin made a very good case at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/otgiv000.htm that contrary to modern
This late and contradictory source is clearly worse than the early sources. However, because of the lack of a documented marriage for Giselbert and the fact that he was said to have died a iuvenis, modern scholars decided to take this source and makeOtgiva of Luxembourg was actually daughter of Giselbert, not his brother Frédéric. All early sources call her daughter of Giselbert. However, a late source made her sister of the sons of Frédéric though it also called her daughter of Giselbert.
Eadgifu. She apparently did marry though her husband is unknown.Deter Peter, Stewart Baldwin conjectured in 2006 at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/oldxIGHi0os/m/HsI4JIk6U0gJ that Giselbert's wife might have been Mathilde of Burgundy, daughter of King Conrad of Burgundy and Mathilde of France, daughter of Louis IV of France and granddaghter ofI'm not aware of other instances, though I haven't searched - Eadgifu
I just wondered why her name is thought to be 'English'? I remember that the name of Eadgifu the mother
of Louis IV is rendered in a number of ways in the sources, including Otgive or Odgiva. Did the
name Otgiva have no history on the continent before her and is Otgiva of Lux the only other example?
was called "Ottogeba" by Flodoard and "Otgiva" by Witger, both writing
in the mid-10th century, but her name does not appear to have been given
to any documented descendants.
In the following century the lady herself was addressed as Otgiva in a
letter from Othelbold, abbot of Saint-Bavon in Ghent. The possibility of
descent from the former Eadgifu's namesake paternal half-sister who is
said to have married "Louis, a prince in Aquitaine", and whose mother
was also Eadgifu, is a ready-made invitation to conjecture - but the
same name could have come from England independently of a royal bride.
Peter Stewart
--
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Deter Peter, Stewart Baldwin conjectured in 2006 at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/oldxIGHi0os/m/HsI4JIk6U0gJ that Giselbert's wife might have been Mathilde of Burgundy, daughter of King Conrad of Burgundy and Mathilde of France, daughter of Louis IV of France and granddaghter ofEadgifu. She apparently did marry though her husband is unknown.
On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:09:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Eadgifu. She apparently did marry though her husband is unknown.Deter Peter, Stewart Baldwin conjectured in 2006 at
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/oldxIGHi0os/m/HsI4JIk6U0gJ that Giselbert's wife might have been Mathilde of Burgundy, daughter of King Conrad of Burgundy and Mathilde of France, daughter of Louis IV of France and granddaghter of
I was led to put this idea out there because of a few apparent coincidences I noticed which may be relevant, but might also just be random coincidences. Conjectures such as this can sometimes lead a discussion in a useful direction, even if theoriginal conjecture turns out to be incorrect. More evidence would be required before this item is regarded as anything more than speculation (as I tried to make clear in my original posting).
Apart from the probable English connection in her name, Otgiva may have
had a noble Byzantine ancestry through her unknown mother as reputed for
her son Balduin V according to William of Poitiers. This evidently did
not come through Balduin IV, so that Otgiva was more probably the
conduit if this near-contemporary belief was correct. The comparative
modesty of the claim, of noble rather than imperial blood from Constantinople, does not have the ring of outright fiction. If true the
most likely explanation seems to me that Giselbert of
Luxemburg-Vaudrevange had married by ca 1000 a lady whose parents had
English and Byzantine antecedents between them. Possibly her father was
a son of King Edward the Elder's daughter (Eadgifu/Otgiva) who had been
sent to Germany with Otto the Great's wife Eadgyth, and her mother may
have come from Constantinople in the entourage of Otto II's wife
Theophanu in 972.
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