Checking in about a detail, recently noticed in the York Archbishops' Registers, that relates to the generation #10 problem in the Edward (pilgrim) FitzRandolph line formerly in Magna Carta Ancestry. Not sure if this detail was known by John I.
Coddington or others who have worked on this family, and if not known, whether it’s helpful evidence or offers some new research avenues. Hoping anyone here interested in the FitzRandolphs might have some insight.

According to Coddington's pedigree(1) and notes, the line’s weakest link is a presumed but not proven father, John, of Christopher FitzRandolph who d. in Nottinghamshire ca 1570, and married Joan/Jane Langton, daughter of Cuthbert Langton of Langton
Hall, Kirby-in-Ashfield. The line:

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=59XcwoRK9jkC&pg=GBS.PA192.w.1.12.0_424&printsec=frontcover

Key to the assumed relationship between the FitzRandolphs in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Notts and in Spennithorne, Yorks, is Christopher FitzRandolph, a cleric who died in Notts in 1516. A marriage contract he made for a man of the same name, possibly his
nephew, states that the two are related. A pedigree in the British Library (cited by Coddington) puts a Christopher -- presumably the clerk -- and his brother John at the head of the Notts FitzRandolph family.

Coddington says of the cleric’s 1516 will, "Unfortunately, the clerk didn't mention his Spennithorne kinsmen.” Did this mean there was yet no direct evidence for the close connection between Notts and Yorks FitzRandolphs? That it was possible the
cleric originated from somewhere other than than Spennithorne/North Riding of Yorkshire (even considering the apparent rarity of this surname)?** Or, was Coddington talking about which Spennithorne man was John's and the clerk's father? It’s hard to
know the extent of prior research, so we may be going over already-traveled territory. Maybe Douglas Richardson has some insight.

In any case, the Borthwick's York Clergy Ordination Lists contain helpful references. The info is taken from the York Archbishops' Registers, whose digitization is ongoing. Christopher FitzRandolph the clerk's index entry(2) reads, "Christopher
FitzRandolf, of Spennithorne." The list (index p. 343; details #68, p. 115):

https://www.york.ac.uk/media/borthwick/documents/York_Clergy_Ordinations_1475-1500_Online%20_Edition.pdf

Here’s Christopher’s Register entry (which also mentions Spennithorne) for ordination as an acolyte.(3)

https://archbishopsregisters.york.ac.uk/browse/registers?folio=474&register_id=c247dt49c

These references confirm that the clerk and his cousin/nephew of the same name were of the Spennithorne FitzRandolph family. If Coddington had seen them (maybe not, as accessibility was difficult decades ago, Borthwick says), would he probably have cited
them in “Sureties?” Anthony Wagner also didn’t cite them in his 1945 FitzRandolph article in NEGHR(4) (Vol. 9, p. 336):

https://www.americanancestors.org/DB202/i/11697/336/23495977

In addition to Christopher the clerk’s place of origin, his first assignment after ordination in York is also given in the Registry index: St. Mary Overie (Southwark) Priory in London, Diocese of Westminster. No other ordinands in his class or any
class listed in the document (1475-1500) are recorded as having been sent there. Maybe Christopher got a plum assignment made possible by his presumed maternal uncle, Sir John Conyers, K.G. and knight of the body to Henry VII?

In addition to the York Archbishops’ Registers, there’s a possibly relevant reference to a Sir John Fitz Randoll during the subject years: a service/stipend/chantry founded in 1520 at St. Michael's, Spennithorne(5) (see fn135 at link below).

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol1/pp257-264#h3-0004

This date isn't far removed from the deaths of two known John FitzRandolphs of the place and time of the pedigree problem: first, the clerk's presumed brother (who it's thought, but not proven, to have died before his son's 1514 marriage contract, made
by the clerk). Second, the last Sir Ralph FitzRandolph's son and heir, who is thought to have predeceased his father by a short time, dying in 1516 or 1517.

The chantry document(6) cites foeffee Christopher Conyers: son of Sir William Conyers (d. 1524), who was the grandson and heir of Sir John Conyers mentioned above (Sir John had presented Christoher the clerk to the living in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, ca 1489).

https://archive.org/details/certificatescom00pagegoog/page/n138/mode/2up

Could the founder be Sir Ralph’s son and heir, if he had died three years before the deed of foeffment cited here (if I’m reading correctly)? If anyone is inclined, I could use a little insight on the conventions for creation and commencement of
services/chantries.

One more note about Coddington's "Sureties" line 164: In generation 13, he cites the 1588 will of Christopher FitzRandolph (son of Chris who d. ca 1570/Joan Langton), saying the testator's wife had predeceased her husband and wasn't named. But a reading
of the will shows she was living at the time of her husband's death (her given name isn’t mentioned).

Are any of the above points decent fuel for further exploration? Thoughts and suggestions much appreciated.

**G.G. Bonser's discussion of a long-established Notts-Derby FitzRanulf/FitzRandolph family, with no mention of Yorkshire(7). Anyone familiar with this family?

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/books/bonser1948/sutton19.htm


++++++++++

1Line 164, "Magna Charta Sureties," Frederick Lewis Weis, fifth edition, 1999 2York Clergy Ordinations, 1475-1500, compiled by David M. Smith, 2017, p. 343 3York Archbishops' Registers, Borthwick Institute for Archives, Apb, f219v) 4NEHGR, Vol. 9, p. 336 (1945); The New England Historical and Genealogical Register. Boston, MA: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1847-. (Online database: AmericanAncestors.org, New England Historic Genealogical Society, 2001-2018.)
5Parishes: Spennithorne', A History of the County of York North Riding: Volume 1, ed. William Page (London, 1914), pp. 257-264. British History Online
6The Certificates of the Commissioners Appointed to Survey the Chantries, Guilds, Hospitals, Etc., in the County of York, Part I, Surtees Society, Vol. XCI, 1894
7A History of Sutton-in-Ashfield, 1948, at Nottinghamshire History (http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/)







--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Just stumbled on this group and your messages on the FitzRandolphs. My husband is descended from them so it is fascinating. The ordination records do seem to confirm that the Vicar Christopher was of the Spennithorne family. I notice some issues with
the various John FitzRandolphs in the different records, though, that I want to get your thoughts on.
There are three Johns in particular:
1- John, the son of Ralph of Spennithorne, who is supposed to have died in 1516 or 1517, shortly before or after his father.
2 - John who is the heir in Vicar Christopher's will and who is clearly a minor needing support and guardianship from Anthony Burgh
3 - John who was enfeoffed by Cuthbert Langton in the 1514 marriage contract for Joan Langton and Christopher FitzRandolph, the vicar's "cousin" - he would clearly have to be of age to be chosen by Langton to manage his property.
It doesn't seem possible that these could be the same person. Would #1 Ralph's son and heir need his uncle Christopher to provide him with "meat, clothes, and some learning"? Clearly #2 and #3 are not the same. #1 and #3 could only be the same if
Ralph's son was old enough to be chosen to manage property and it's not clear how old he was at that time. #3 could be the Vicar's brother and father to Christopher the groom, but there would have to be some reason why the uncle and not the father was
party to the contract. Are there any other known John FitzRandolphs during that time period?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 7:17:26 PM UTC-4, KF wrote:

Just stumbled on this group and your messages on the FitzRandolphs. My husband is descended from them so it is fascinating. The ordination records do seem to confirm that the Vicar Christopher was of the Spennithorne family. I notice some issues with

the various John FitzRandolphs in the different records, though, that I want to get your thoughts on.

There are three Johns in particular:
1- John, the son of Ralph of Spennithorne, who is supposed to have died in 1516 or 1517, shortly before or after his father.
2 - John who is the heir in Vicar Christopher's will and who is clearly a minor needing support and guardianship from Anthony Burgh
3 - John who was enfeoffed by Cuthbert Langton in the 1514 marriage contract for Joan Langton and Christopher FitzRandolph, the vicar's "cousin" - he would clearly have to be of age to be chosen by Langton to manage his property.
It doesn't seem possible that these could be the same person. Would #1 Ralph's son and heir need his uncle Christopher to provide him with "meat, clothes, and some learning"? Clearly #2 and #3 are not the same. #1 and #3 could only be the same if Ralph'

s son was old enough to be chosen to manage property and it's not clear how old he was at that time. #3 could be the Vicar's brother and father to Christopher the groom, but there would have to be some reason why the uncle and not the father was party to
the contract. Are there any other known John FitzRandolphs during that time period?

Hi, KF. Have been working on this problem for quite a while, chipping away. Am likely covering the same ground as did John Coddington decades ago and coming to the same conclusion: Christopher Fitz-who-married-Jane-Langton was of the Spennithorne
FitzRandolph family, but can't put my finger on who his father was. And if a John, as some information suggests, which man of Spennithorne was this John's father (according to Coddington, likely Sir John FitzRandolph, with wife Joan Conyers, daughter of
Christopher Conyers of Hornby and sister of Sir John Conyers K.G.)

The good news is that numerous connections exist among Jane Langton's husband Christopher FitzRandolph -- and proximate others -- and the Spennithorne FitzRandolphs, the Langtons, the Burghs, the Conyers family, the Darcys and the Strelleys.

Several John FitzRandolphs appear to have been living in or near both Spennithorne, Yorks and Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Notts in the early 16th century (or cited later as having been there). It's hard to distinguish who's who and whether one or more are
conflated.

*John #1, named on the pedigree chart in the British Museum/Library as the head of the Notts family and brother of a Christopher FitzRandolph (presumably the clerk but not cited as such) and father of Chris-who-married-Jane Langton. A much later
secondary source says this John purchased Langton Hall from Cuthbert Langton, but no source citation is given and, being inexperienced, I don't know how to look for evidence of that ownership change. We do know, though, that Langton Hall came to Jane
Langton FitzRandolph's husband Christopher at some point.

*John #2, son and heir of the last Sir Ralph FitzRandolph of Spennithorne; both men apparently died ca 1516-1517. This John died without issue, as far as I can tell, and his sisters were his heirs. He may have had a wife Dorothy, who was named as widow
in a suit after this John's death, and who might have remarried several years later to a Robert Bowes of Durham.

*John #3, cited as a foeffee by Cuthbert Langton in the marriage contract of Christopher-who-married-Jane-Langton, abt 1514. I think Coddington thought this was John #1, the heir of the last Sir Ralph and the bridegroom's cousin. (As you asked, if the
John of the contract had been the bridegroom's father, why wouldn't this father have been making the contract with Cuthbert, instead of Christopher clerk performing this role?)

*John #4, apparently a minor, named in the 1516 will of Christopher the clerk; apparently in the clerk's care at the time; and whose upkeep was entrusted to an Anthony Burgh. Is it possible that this young John is the younger sibling of Chris-who-married-
Joan and which marriage was arranged by Chris clerk? If so, why wouldn't the boy have been placed in the care of his older brother, rather than in the care of a cousin? Or, this young John could be the orphan of a possible Richard, theorized by
Coddington as possible brother of both John-father-of-Chris and of Christopher clerk?

(Note on a theory: I think Anthony Burgh was, like Chris-the-husband-of-Jane-Langton, the clerk's nephew...the son of his sister Margery FitzRandolph wife of John Burgh of East Hauxwell, Yorkshire, very near Spennithorne. Anthony, I've learned, was also
the husband of Cuthbert Langton's other daughter, Bennet. Chris the clerk, who had lived in Notts since 1490s, may have had an active hand in arranging his nephews' marriages to Cuthbert's two daughters? By then, the Langton family had had a long tenant
relationship with the Darcys, the family of Sir John Conyers' K.G.'s wife. The chantry of St. Wilfrid in Kirkby, Notts, where Christopher clerk served, had come to Sir John through his wife.)

*John #5, who appears to have founded a chantry at Spennithorne St. Michael's around 1520. This wouldn't be John #2, above, as the latter had very likely died by that time, unless there's something I'm not understanding, which is very possible).

Just found some Notts chancery suits involving Cuthbert Langton and his son-in-law Christopher FitzRandolph, and if these don't help clarify some relationships, I'll be wondering about other research avenues. Have spent considerable time looking at the
Conyers family with Christopher the clerk as key link, and want to do more there. It's interesting to note that, in looking at various sources, I haven't found a single other FitzRandolph priest; Christopher FitzRandolph, the possible nephew of Sir John
Conyers, is only one so far. Sir John seems to have been involved in the lives of a number of other priests in his extended Conyers family, so it's reasonable that he might have supported a son of his sister Joan FitzRandolph's in that way.

For me, it seems virtually certain that Chris-who-married-Jane-Langton of Notts is of the Spennithorne FitzRandolph family, so has the interesting remote roots of Coddington's pedigree (maybe this has never really been in question). Just haven't yet
found a piece of contemporaneous evidence of a John as Chris's father; a woman who might have been Chris's mother; FitzRandolphs who might have been Chris's siblings (other than young John of the clerk's will, who I haven't yet tried to follow forward);
or the Richard that Coddington cites as a possible brother of Chris clerk and of John, father of Chris-who-m.-Jane Langton.

Any thoughts or suggestions very welcome, as always. Jinny

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)