Does anyone know if any conclusions have been reached about the lineage of Sir John Throckmorton and Eleanor Spinney (late 1400s), in particular the possible descent from Charlemagne?
A number of previous threads have thrown doubt upon a number of generations in this lineage - for example that Milicent de Camville was the mother of William... also that marriages of Spinneys to Bruley and Durvassal might be unsupported.
A number of weak links in the chain it seems.
As an 'amateur bungler' (a term borrowed from one particularly sharp contributor to these threads!) I confess I'm unable to keep up once the discussion gets deep into the weeds about the primary evidence etc.
Is anyone able to summarise? Offer advice on what an amateur bungler should reasonably do in the face of disputed lineage?
Hi Joe
Thank you for replying - it's very kind of you and I really appreciate your advice.
Do you have any suggestions as to where I might start if I'm to take an interest in genealogy in this period? Any good introductory guides? Somewhere I could get acquainted with the terminology, get a sense of the sources being quoted?
Best wishes,
David
Aubrey Marmion = William de Camville, son of
Richard de Camville (d.1176=) = Milicent de Rethel (THIS SEEMS TO BE A PARTICULAR POINT OF DISPUTE - WM. PROBABLY SON OF RICHARD'S FIRST WIFE, ALICE?]
On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 7:45:18 AM UTC-7, D Pk wrote:
Aubrey Marmion = William de Camville, son of
Richard de Camville (d.1176=) = Milicent de Rethel (THIS SEEMS TO BE A PARTICULAR POINT OF DISPUTE - WM. PROBABLY SON OF RICHARD'S FIRST WIFE, ALICE?]
Based on a quick review of the archives, the crux of this is that we know that Richard and Milicent had a son Richard, and that when the younger Richard died, at least one of his properties ended up being held in its entirety by his sister Isabel.
Hi Peter, thanks for this... am I mistaken in thinking there are two Richard de Camvilles - father and son? The father dies 1176 in Italy and his son dies at Acre in 1191?
On 21-Jun-22 5:14 PM, D Pk wrote:
Hi Peter, thanks for this... am I mistaken in thinking there are two
Richard de Camvilles - father and son? The father dies 1176 in Italy
and his son dies at Acre in 1191?
Yes, the father died in Apulia on his way back to England after being
sent as one of Henry II's ambassadors to tell William II of Sicily that
his request to marry the king's daughter Joan had been agreed. They had arrived in Palermo in August 1176, but it is unknown how long afterwards Richard and his colleague Baldwin Buleot both died while heading home.
On 21-Jun-22 7:56 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 21-Jun-22 5:14 PM, D Pk wrote:
Hi Peter, thanks for this... am I mistaken in thinking there are two
Richard de Camvilles - father and son? The father dies 1176 in Italy
and his son dies at Acre in 1191?
Yes, the father died in Apulia on his way back to England after being
sent as one of Henry II's ambassadors to tell William II of Sicily
that his request to marry the king's daughter Joan had been agreed.
They had arrived in Palermo in August 1176, but it is unknown how long
afterwards Richard and his colleague Baldwin Buleot both died while
heading home.
I should have made this a bit clearer - it is known that the two men
died between August and December 1176, since the bishop of Norwich who
had led their embassy to Palermo arrived back in England before
Christmas, as also did the archbishop of Canterbury and the bishop of
Ely who had escorted Joan to Saint-Gilles in Provence where she had been handed over to the envoys of her husband-to-be.
On 21-Jun-22 10:53 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 21-Jun-22 7:56 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 21-Jun-22 5:14 PM, D Pk wrote:
Hi Peter, thanks for this... am I mistaken in thinking there are two
Richard de Camvilles - father and son? The father dies 1176 in Italy
and his son dies at Acre in 1191?
Yes, the father died in Apulia on his way back to England after being
sent as one of Henry II's ambassadors to tell William II of Sicily
that his request to marry the king's daughter Joan had been agreed.
They had arrived in Palermo in August 1176, but it is unknown how
long afterwards Richard and his colleague Baldwin Buleot both died
while heading home.
I should have made this a bit clearer - it is known that the two men
died between August and December 1176, since the bishop of Norwich who
had led their embassy to Palermo arrived back in England before
Christmas, as also did the archbishop of Canterbury and the bishop of
Ely who had escorted Joan to Saint-Gilles in Provence where she had
been handed over to the envoys of her husband-to-be.
Actually the death of the elder Richard de Camville can be narrowed a
little further - the English ambassadors were received by William II of Sicily in Palermo on 23 August 1176, and on 9 November Joan was handed
over to William's envoys in Saint-Gilles by the bishop of Norwich
himself, on his way home from Sicily.
Presumably Richard had died during this interval. According to the
cartulary of Eynsham he died "in terre de Pulle", but it's not very
likely that this happened in Apulia well out of the way between Sicily
and Saint-Gilles. However, he may have crossed into Calabria for some
reason - the bishop sailed from Messina, rather than directly from
Palermo, to Saint-Gilles (two ships carrying gifts from William to Henry
sank on the voyage, and maybe Richard had gone over to the mainland to collect some of these).
On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 9:14:47 AM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 12:00:26 AM UTC-7, D Pk wrote:
Hi JoeI don't see any particular descent from Charlemagne, even alleged behind this couple
Thank you for replying - it's very kind of you and I really appreciate your advice.
Do you have any suggestions as to where I might start if I'm to take an interest in genealogy in this period? Any good introductory guides? Somewhere I could get acquainted with the terminology, get a sense of the sources being quoted?
Best wishes,
David
Perhaps you could outline that so we can destroy it utterly
If memory serves ( I do'nt have it handy), part of this line appears in RD500, but a line of descent is established for Ethelred II Unready, not Charlemagne.
On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 12:00:26 AM UTC-7, D Pk wrote:
Hi Joe
Thank you for replying - it's very kind of you and I really appreciate your advice.
Do you have any suggestions as to where I might start if I'm to take an interest in genealogy in this period? Any good introductory guides? Somewhere I could get acquainted with the terminology, get a sense of the sources being quoted?
Best wishes,I don't see any particular descent from Charlemagne, even alleged behind this couple
David
Perhaps you could outline that so we can destroy it utterly
On 22-Jun-22 9:25 PM, joseph cook wrote:
On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 9:14:47 AM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 12:00:26 AM UTC-7, D Pk wrote:
Hi JoeI don't see any particular descent from Charlemagne, even alleged behind this couple
Thank you for replying - it's very kind of you and I really appreciate your advice.
Do you have any suggestions as to where I might start if I'm to take an interest in genealogy in this period? Any good introductory guides? Somewhere I could get acquainted with the terminology, get a sense of the sources being quoted?
Best wishes,
David
Perhaps you could outline that so we can destroy it utterly
If memory serves ( I do'nt have it handy), part of this line appears in RD500, but a line of descent is established for Ethelred II Unready, not Charlemagne.I must be missing something - I thought the supposed descent from
Charlemagne went through the elder Richard de Camville's second wife, Melisend of Rethel, assuming she had been the mother of his son William.
From memory she had two documented lines to Charlemagne through her
paternal grandmother Elisabeth of Namur.
Peter Stewart
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