Dear All,
One of the most famous French genealogists claims that Marine Le Pen is a descendant of the Prophet of Islam.
Here is the lineage he proposes.
I leave it to you to criticize this work.
On Wed, 18 May 2022 02:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Olivier
<olivierg...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
Dear All,
One of the most famous French genealogists claims that Marine Le Pen is a descendant of the Prophet of Islam.
Here is the lineage he proposes.
Where ?
I leave it to you to criticize this work.
Not new !
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2017/05/215808/marine-le-pen-descendent-prophet-muhammad
That said, the article indicates:
"Anne de Roquefeuil, is a descendant of King Louis VI, whose ancestors
were kings of England and Spain. The genealogist went on to explain
that one of these Spanish ancestors married a woman from the Omayyad caliphate during the Muslim rule of Spain"
Sounds like a not-supported claim...
DenisThe original thread has been deleted. I wasn't aware Marine Le Pen had French noble ancestry.
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
A quarta-feira, 18 de maio de 2022 à(s) 22:50:35 UTC+1, Denis Beauregard escreveu:
On Wed, 18 May 2022 02:24:42 -0700 (PDT), OlivierThe original thread has been deleted. I wasn't aware Marine Le Pen had French noble ancestry.
<olivierg...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
Dear All,
One of the most famous French genealogists claims that Marine Le Pen is a descendant of the Prophet of Islam.
Here is the lineage he proposes.
Where ?
I leave it to you to criticize this work.
Not new !
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2017/05/215808/marine-le-pen-descendent-prophet-muhammad
That said, the article indicates:
"Anne de Roquefeuil, is a descendant of King Louis VI, whose ancestors
were kings of England and Spain. The genealogist went on to explain
that one of these Spanish ancestors married a woman from the Omayyad
caliphate during the Muslim rule of Spain"
Sounds like a not-supported claim...
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ >> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
So, with two abslolute howlers in the same claim, this is either incredibly sloppy and amateurish genealogy, or more likely, intentional deception that basically amounts to trolling gullible and lazy newspapers with 'fake news'.
On Wed, 18 May 2022 02:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Olivier
<olivierg...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
One of the most famous French genealogists claims that Marine Le Pen is a descendant of the Prophet of Islam.
Here is the lineage he proposes.
Where ?
I leave it to you to criticize this work.
Not new !
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2017/05/215808/marine-le-pen-descendent-prophet-muhammad
That said, the article indicates:
"Anne de Roquefeuil, is a descendant of King Louis VI, whose ancestors
were kings of England and Spain. The genealogist went on to explain
that one of these Spanish ancestors married a woman from the Omayyad caliphate during the Muslim rule of Spain"
Sounds like a not-supported claim...
The original thread has been deleted. I wasn't aware Marine Le Pen had French noble ancestry.
On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:35:38 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:Muhammad was nothing but a political forgery.
So, with two abslolute howlers in the same claim, this is either incredibly sloppy and amateurish genealogy, or more likely, intentional deception that basically amounts to trolling gullible and lazy newspapers with 'fake news'.
I should add that there are two further questionable 'facts', and a further implicit claim.
1) That Zaida actually married Alfonso VI is still hotly debated among Iberian scholars.
2) Zaida was not from the Omayyad caliphate, she was from the Taifa of Seville.
3) it is left implicit that 'a woman from the Omayyad caliphate' equates with 'a descendant of Muhammad', but even were she a member of the Taifa royal line (itself problematic) there is every reason to believe that their claimed line of descent from
So, not exactly receiving high scores for accuracy.Zaida was not daughter of the Emir of Seville Abul-Kasim. She was his daughter in law. However, it it has been speculated that she was daughter of his brother Abenabeth. Cousin marriages are common in Islamic cultures.
taf
Zaida was not daughter of the Emir of Seville Abul-Kasim. She was his daughter
in law. However, it it has been speculated that she was daughter of his brother
Abenabeth. Cousin marriages are common in Islamic cultures.
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 6:21:08 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:descendant of Abbad'). Some Iberian genealogists have tried to make the most of the historical record by viewing the conflicting sources as a 'blind man and the elephant' scenario, where all of the testimony is true but represents different isolated
Zaida was not daughter of the Emir of Seville Abul-Kasim. She was his daughterThe most detailed al-Andalus source calls her the wife of Abbad al-Mu'tadid, son of Abu al-Qasim Muhammad ibn Abbad. A Christian chronicler calls her daughter of 'Abenabeth' (i.e. Ibn Abbad - 'son of Abbad', though possibly a more metaphorical, '
in law. However, it it has been speculated that she was daughter of his brother
Abenabeth. Cousin marriages are common in Islamic cultures.
From my perspective, this is trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I see no reason not to view this as a scenario where the Christian chronicler in naming 'Abenabeth' was referring to the person of this name known to be a proximate relative -Abu al-Qasim Muhammad, but simply, across the cultural and geographical divide, fell victim to 'daughter versus daughter-in-law' confusion.
tafThanks for the reply, Todd. You said in 2009 at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/Jyb51qvAWnw/m/KGLKeG5-NioJ that "The
A sexta-feira, 20 de maio de 2022 à(s) 14:47:14 UTC+1, taf escreveu:descendant of Abbad'). Some Iberian genealogists have tried to make the most of the historical record by viewing the conflicting sources as a 'blind man and the elephant' scenario, where all of the testimony is true but represents different isolated
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 6:21:08 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Zaida was not daughter of the Emir of Seville Abul-Kasim. She was his daughterThe most detailed al-Andalus source calls her the wife of Abbad al-Mu'tadid, son of Abu al-Qasim Muhammad ibn Abbad. A Christian chronicler calls her daughter of 'Abenabeth' (i.e. Ibn Abbad - 'son of Abbad', though possibly a more metaphorical, '
in law. However, it it has been speculated that she was daughter of his brother
Abenabeth. Cousin marriages are common in Islamic cultures.
- Abu al-Qasim Muhammad, but simply, across the cultural and geographical divide, fell victim to 'daughter versus daughter-in-law' confusion.From my perspective, this is trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I see no reason not to view this as a scenario where the Christian chronicler in naming 'Abenabeth' was referring to the person of this name known to be a proximate relative
tafThanks for the reply, Todd. You said in 2009 at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/Jyb51qvAWnw/m/KGLKeG5-NioJ that "The
Chronicon Villarense calls her niece of Abenalfaje (which is a more
accurate rendition of the same name as Abenabeth, and refers to the
family of Al Mu'tamid)."
Thanks for the reply, Todd. You said in 2009 at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/Jyb51qvAWnw/m/KGLKeG5-NioJ that "The
Chronicon Villarense calls her niece of Abenalfaje (which is a more
accurate rendition of the same name as Abenabeth, and refers to the
family of Al Mu'tamid)."
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:24:46 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:reconstruction whereby all three sources that report these contradictory relationships are nonetheless all correct. Though possible, is to me to be avoiding the obvious alternative - that the Christian sources became aware that she was (vaguely) related
Thanks for the reply, Todd. You said in 2009 at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/Jyb51qvAWnw/m/KGLKeG5-NioJ that "TheI knew there was a third source, but couldn't remember off the top of my head what it said. The point remains - we have a confused record, with three different sources giving three different relationships, and from this arises an attempt to generate a
Chronicon Villarense calls her niece of Abenalfaje (which is a more accurate rendition of the same name as Abenabeth, and refers to the
family of Al Mu'tamid)."
It is not uncommon for relationships to become more precise with distance and time. Clearly this happened with some of the sources relating to Agatha (such as the one making her daughter of Solomon), and I think it is just as likely to have been thecase here, rather than that the source saying she was daughter of Ibn Abbad, the source saying she was daughter-in-law of Ibn Abbad, and the source saying she was niece of Ibn Abbad were all reporting accurate relationships for the same woman.
tafThanks for the reply, Todd.
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