Op dinsdag 3 mei 2022 om 21:08:18 UTC+2 schreef ravinma...@yahoo.com:this Lord John died "s.p.," which would mean no son Henry and certainly no grandson Henry.
Can anyone explain the following statement of relationships, dating from between 14 and 16 Henry VI (ca. 1436-38)?
"The share of Henry, a minor, son and heir of Henry, son and heir of Joan, late the wife of John, lord Grey de Codnor, one of the co-heiress of Edmund, earl of March."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnkhj9&view=1up&seq=444&skin=2021&q1=bodulgate
Genealogics.org shows an Edmund Earl of March, who died 1425, with only two sisters, Anne and Eleanor, married respectively to the Duke of York and Lord Courtenay.
Was there another sister Joan?
_Complete Peerage_ shows a Lord John Grey "of Codnor," b. in or before 1396, died ca. September 1430, with a wife Joan, who is recorded as buried as lady "Grey of Codnor" at the Friars Minors, London, in one of Stowe's manuscripts. However, CP says
Perhaps Joan married twice with a son Henry from a previous marriage.
Hans Vogels
Can anyone explain the following statement of relationships, dating from between 14 and 16 Henry VI (ca. 1436-38)?this Lord John died "s.p.," which would mean no son Henry and certainly no grandson Henry.
"The share of Henry, a minor, son and heir of Henry, son and heir of Joan, late the wife of John, lord Grey de Codnor, one of the co-heiress of Edmund, earl of March."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnkhj9&view=1up&seq=444&skin=2021&q1=bodulgate
Genealogics.org shows an Edmund Earl of March, who died 1425, with only two sisters, Anne and Eleanor, married respectively to the Duke of York and Lord Courtenay.
Was there another sister Joan?
_Complete Peerage_ shows a Lord John Grey "of Codnor," b. in or before 1396, died ca. September 1430, with a wife Joan, who is recorded as buried as lady "Grey of Codnor" at the Friars Minors, London, in one of Stowe's manuscripts. However, CP says
On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 4:29:43 PM UTC-4, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:this Lord John died "s.p.," which would mean no son Henry and certainly no grandson Henry.
Op dinsdag 3 mei 2022 om 21:08:18 UTC+2 schreef ravinma...@yahoo.com:
Can anyone explain the following statement of relationships, dating from between 14 and 16 Henry VI (ca. 1436-38)?
"The share of Henry, a minor, son and heir of Henry, son and heir of Joan, late the wife of John, lord Grey de Codnor, one of the co-heiress of Edmund, earl of March."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnkhj9&view=1up&seq=444&skin=2021&q1=bodulgate
Genealogics.org shows an Edmund Earl of March, who died 1425, with only two sisters, Anne and Eleanor, married respectively to the Duke of York and Lord Courtenay.
Was there another sister Joan?
_Complete Peerage_ shows a Lord John Grey "of Codnor," b. in or before 1396, died ca. September 1430, with a wife Joan, who is recorded as buried as lady "Grey of Codnor" at the Friars Minors, London, in one of Stowe's manuscripts. However, CP says
Perhaps Joan married twice with a son Henry from a previous marriage.
Hans VogelsGood point, as the surname of Henry the minor child isn't stated.
Can anyone explain the following statement of relationships, dating from between 14 and 16 Henry VI (ca. 1436-38)?this Lord John died "s.p.," which would mean no son Henry and certainly no grandson Henry.
"The share of Henry, a minor, son and heir of Henry, son and heir of Joan, late the wife of John, lord Grey de Codnor, one of the co-heiress of Edmund, earl of March."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnkhj9&view=1up&seq=444&skin=2021&q1=bodulgate
Genealogics.org shows an Edmund Earl of March, who died 1425, with only two sisters, Anne and Eleanor, married respectively to the Duke of York and Lord Courtenay.
Was there another sister Joan?
_Complete Peerage_ shows a Lord John Grey "of Codnor," b. in or before 1396, died ca. September 1430, with a wife Joan, who is recorded as buried as lady "Grey of Codnor" at the Friars Minors, London, in one of Stowe's manuscripts. However, CP says
On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:08:18 PM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:this Lord John died "s.p.," which would mean no son Henry and certainly no grandson Henry.
Can anyone explain the following statement of relationships, dating from between 14 and 16 Henry VI (ca. 1436-38)?
"The share of Henry, a minor, son and heir of Henry, son and heir of Joan, late the wife of John, lord Grey de Codnor, one of the co-heiress of Edmund, earl of March."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnkhj9&view=1up&seq=444&skin=2021&q1=bodulgate
Genealogics.org shows an Edmund Earl of March, who died 1425, with only two sisters, Anne and Eleanor, married respectively to the Duke of York and Lord Courtenay.
Was there another sister Joan?
_Complete Peerage_ shows a Lord John Grey "of Codnor," b. in or before 1396, died ca. September 1430, with a wife Joan, who is recorded as buried as lady "Grey of Codnor" at the Friars Minors, London, in one of Stowe's manuscripts. However, CP says
There is apparently some confusion here. As best I can tell, it refers to Joan de Cherleton, daughter of Aleanor de Holand, and half-sister and co-heiress of Edmund, Earl of March, who married John Grey, Earl of Tankerville, and had a son Henry. Amongthe family holdings was a share of the Holand manor of Cottingham, the location mentioned in the abstract. However, this requires two corrections. First, John Grey was not of Codnor, and the heir of Joan at the time was Henry, son of Joan, who was a
taf
Yep, I had wondered about that possibility. Another error is that Joan Cherlton's
son Henry was knighted in 1425/6, whereas these heirs of Joan, "Lady Grey of Codnor" are not called knights.
Also, Thoroton implies that Joan Grey of Codnor's son Henry died shortly after
his mother (which makes believable the statement about a younger Henry, alive 1436/8, son of the one still [slightly] underage in 1430), whereas Henry "Tankerville" lived about 20 years longer (til around 1450).
On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:25:34 PM UTC-7, JBrand wrote:question). We know that Cottingham was part of her family inheritance. I just see no way the extract does't refer to this woman. And we know she didn't have a son by an earlier marriage becasue Henry Grey was her heir. There is just no way the extract in
Yep, I had wondered about that possibility. Another error is that Joan Cherlton'sI note that repeatedly through 1434, the heir of Joan Cherlton is not called knight. Only from 1435 does he appear as such.
son Henry was knighted in 1425/6, whereas these heirs of Joan, "Lady Grey of
Codnor" are not called knights.
Also, Thoroton implies that Joan Grey of Codnor's son Henry died shortly afterThis is all a muddle of some sort. We know that the Joan who was co-heiress of the Earl of March married John Grey, knight, not of Codnor, and by him had a son Henry who was born in 1420 (and hence could not himself have had a son Henry by the time in
his mother (which makes believable the statement about a younger Henry, alive
1436/8, son of the one still [slightly] underage in 1430), whereas Henry "Tankerville" lived about 20 years longer (til around 1450).
Relevant records:
CCR 1425, Mar 7: Henry Grey, minor, son and heir of Joan who was wife of John Grey, knight, and heir of Anne, sister of Eleanor, countess of March
CIPM 1425, Aug 1: Joan (aged 24+) wife of John Grey, knight, sister of Edmund Earl of March
CFR 1425, Oct 4: Joan, late wife of John Gray, knight, sister of Edmund, Earl of March
CIPM 1425, Nov 27: Joan, wife of John Grey, knight, sister and heir of Edmund, Earl of March. Henry Grey, son and heir, aged 7+
CFR 1425, Oct 4: Joan, late wife of John Grey, knight
CFR 1426, Jan 5: Joan, late the wife of John Grey, knight, sister of Edmung, Earl of March
CFR 1426, Jan 27: Henry Grey, minor son and heir of Joan, late wife of Sir John Grey of Codenore
CFR 1426, Mar 8: Henry Grey, minor son and heir of Joan, late wife of John Grey, knight, sister of Edmund Earl of March
CIPM 1427 May 27: John Grey and Elizabeth his wife
CCR 1428, Nov 12: Henry Grey, minor, son and heir of Joan who was wife of John Grey, knight, and sister of Edmund, Earl of March
CCR 1429, Apr 1: Henry Grey, minor, son and heir of Joan who was wife of John Grey, knight, and sister of Edmund, Earl of March
CFR 1430, Sep 26: John Grey, knight, tenant in chief
CIPM 1430, Oct 16: John Grey, knight, [of Codnor], heir brother and heir Henry Grey, aged 25+
CFR 1430, Nov 14: Henry Grey, minor, son of John Gray, knight
CFR 1430, Nov 14: Henry Grey, brother and heir of John Grey, knight
CFR 1430, Nov 18, Henry Grey, minor son of Joan, formerly wife of John Grey of Codenore
CFR 1431, May 5: Elizabeth who was wife of John de Grey, knight
CIPM 1431, Oct 24: Elizabeth, widow of John Grey, knight [of Codnor]
CFR 1432, Sep 26: Henry Grey, coheir of Edmund, Earl of March
CIPM 1432, Oct 16-30: Henry Grey (aged 14+/15+/aged 13 on 8 June last), son of Joan, sister and coheir of Edmund, Earl of March
CFR 1432, Oct 31: Henry Grey, coheir of Edmund, Earl of March
CPR 1432, Nov 20: Henry Grey, coheir of Anne, widow of Edmund, Earl of March CFR 1432, Nov 26: Henry Grey, coheir of Edmund, Earl of March
CFR 1432, Dec 21: Henry Grey, son of Joan, sister of Edmund, Earl of March CPR 1433, Feb 6: Henry Grey, Lord of Powys, minor
CFR 1433, Feb 24, Henry Grey, coheir of Edmund, Earl of March
CIPM 1433, Oct 27: Henry Grey, aged 17+, heir Anne, widow of Edmund, Earl of March
CIPM 1434, May 10: "Eleanor married Edward Charleton . . ., they had issue Joan, now wife of John Gray, knight. . . . John Gray and Joan had issue Henry Gray, who survives, and died." (confusing syntax)
CIPM 1434, May 30: Henry Grey, heir Joan, Duchess of York, in king's wardship
CIPM 1434, Jun 1: Henry Gray, aged 16+, son of Joan, lately wife of John Gray, knight, and daughter of Eleanor, sister of Joan, Duchess of York
CPR 1435, Jan 3: Henry Gray, son and heir of John Gray, knight and wife Joan CFR 1435, Mar 1, Henry Grey, knight, kinsman and one of the heirs of Joan, late Duchess of York
CPR 1435, Nov 29: Henry Gray, son and heir of a sister of the Earl of March CIPM 1441, Jun 30: Henry Grey, knight, son of Joan, sister of Edward Charlton
CIPM 1441, Sep 20: Henry Grey, knight, son of Joan, sister of Edward Charlton
CIPM 1441, Oct 28: Henry Gray alias Henry Grey, knight, proof of age, born Pontesbury, Sunday after feast St Laurence, 8 Hen V, aged 21 on Sunday after feast St Laurence last (sic)
taf
Yes, you're probably right about this. The property Cottingham, which
was a Holland property, seems to require it.
I think Thoroton probably cited the record of John, Duke of Bedford,
taking custody of the lands and heir, even though the property he was discussing (Nottinghamshire) was not included in the list (otherwise,
it would show a link to the Codnor family which he had been discussing
in depth prior to citing the Bedford custody record).
As to her being formerly wife of John Grey, Lord of Codnor, it is at least theoretically possible that she married first John Grey, father of her son Henry, and subsequently married a separate John Grey, Lord of Codnor. Otherwise we would have to havethree separate records all referring to Joan, wife of John of Codnor being in error, or just one huge coincidence and confusion, where there were two different Joans, wives of different John Greys, both with sons named Henry, and this extracted record is
Relevant records:
CFR 1426, Jan 27: Henry Grey, minor son and heir of Joan, late wife of Sir John Grey of Codenore
CFR 1426, Mar 8: Henry Grey, minor son and heir of Joan, late wife of John Grey, knight, sister of Edmund Earl of March
CIPM 1427 May 27: John Grey and Elizabeth his wife
CCR 1428, Nov 12: Henry Grey, minor, son and heir of Joan who was wife of John Grey, knight, and sister of Edmund, Earl of March
CCR 1429, Apr 1: Henry Grey, minor, son and heir of Joan who was wife of John Grey, knight, and sister of Edmund, Earl of March
CFR 1430, Sep 26: John Grey, knight, tenant in chief
CIPM 1430, Oct 16: John Grey, knight, [of Codnor], heir brother and heir Henry Grey, aged 25+
CFR 1430, Nov 14: Henry Grey, minor, son of John Gray, knight
CFR 1430, Nov 14: Henry Grey, brother and heir of John Grey, knight
CFR 1430, Nov 18, Henry Grey, minor son of Joan, formerly wife of John Grey of Codenore
On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:02:04 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:have three separate records all referring to Joan, wife of John of Codnor being in error, or just one huge coincidence and confusion, where there were two different Joans, wives of different John Greys, both with sons named Henry, and this extracted
As to her being formerly wife of John Grey, Lord of Codnor, it is at least theoretically possible that she married first John Grey, father of her son Henry, and subsequently married a separate John Grey, Lord of Codnor. Otherwise we would have to
Todd, I think you have hit on it: Joan (Cherleton), Lady Grey of Powis (her husband is simply styled "Sir John Grey" in his IPMs, the title Count of Tancarville being of Normandy, so apparently not used in the Chancery Rolls) must have re-married,after Tancarville was killed at the battle of Baugé in March 1421, to Sir John Grey (5th Lord Grey of Codnor).
This would be a marriage easily overlooked through the centuries, as her two husbands were both 'Sir John Grey' in records - they became combined into one husband, her first one Tancarville, by whom she had her son and heir.sister and heir and daughter of Eleanor, late countess of March; Joan, wife of John Grey, chevalier, second sister and heir of Edmund and daughter of Eleanor; and Joyce wife of John Typtoft, chevalier, third sister and heir of Edmund and daughter of
But in the Nottinghamshire IPM of her half-brother the Earl of March, taken on 1 August 1425, just sixteen days prior to Lady Joan (Cherleton) Grey's own death on 17 September 1425, "...his [March's] next heirs are Richard duke of York, son of Anne his
Note that Joan is "wife" not widow of Sir John Grey. Her husband was alive in September 1425.Grey. Only if a knight was the stepfather, not the father, of the son and heir of an heiress, could he not retain custody of her lands during the heir's minority. A father had the right to whatever lands his child inherited from the mother, until that
Relevant records:These two records above further support that Joan (Cherleton) Grey, widowed countess of Tancarville, remarried Sir John Grey of Codnor.
CFR 1426, Jan 27: Henry Grey, minor son and heir of Joan, late wife of Sir John Grey of Codenore
CFR 1426, Mar 8: Henry Grey, minor son and heir of Joan, late wife of John Grey, knight, sister of Edmund Earl of March
Sir John Grey of Codnor was alive in January-March 1426. If his deceased wife had a son and heir, the boy had to have been from a previous marriage, or Sir John Grey of Codnor, not the crown, would be entitled to custody of the lands of the minor Henry
completely separate and un-related to the Greys of Codnor, or the Greys of Wilton and Ruthin], and the other, of full age, the heir of Sir John Grey of Codnor.CIPM 1427 May 27: John Grey and Elizabeth his wifeSo Sir John Grey of Codnor was remarried, within two years after the death of Joan (Cherleton), Lady Grey of Powis, to Lady Elizabeth Fitzgerald.
CCR 1428, Nov 12: Henry Grey, minor, son and heir of Joan who was wife of John Grey, knight, and sister of Edmund, Earl of MarchSir John Grey of Codnor died without issue, survived by his second wife Lady Elizabeth (Fitzgerald), who would go on to re-marry, as his second wife, James Butler, 4th Earl of Ormond.
CCR 1429, Apr 1: Henry Grey, minor, son and heir of Joan who was wife of John Grey, knight, and sister of Edmund, Earl of March
CFR 1430, Sep 26: John Grey, knight, tenant in chief
CIPM 1430, Oct 16: John Grey, knight, [of Codnor], heir brother and heir Henry Grey, aged 25+
His heir was his brother Henry Grey, over age 25.
CFR 1430, Nov 14: Henry Grey, minor, son of John Gray, knightThese two entries prove that there were two distinct Henry Greys in November 1430. One, a minor, the heir of Sir John Gray [note the spelling 'Gray' - this Sir John, the count of Tancarville, was from the Northumberland Gray of Heaton family,
CFR 1430, Nov 14: Henry Grey, brother and heir of John Grey, knight
of which occurred when Sir John Grey of Codnor was still alive.CFR 1430, Nov 18, Henry Grey, minor son of Joan, formerly wife of John Grey of CodenoreAnd here is another entry which is evidence that Joan (Cherleton), Lady Grey of Powis was married to Sir John Grey of Codnor when she died in September 1425.
Could this somehow have been error by Chancery clerks, confusing the two different Sir John Greys whose heirs were each named Henry? If it happened only once, it could be chalked up to error, but as Todd points out, it's three different occasions, two
Complete Peerage makes no mention of a burial for Joan (Cherleton), Lady Grey of Powis. So when CP notes that "A Lady Joan Grey, wife of Sir John Grey Lord of Codnor, is stated to have been buried in the Apostles Chapel on the south side of the choirof the Friars Minors, London" per Stow's 'Collections', we can be fairly certain this applies to Joan (Cherleton), Lady Grey of Powis.
Nice work, John and Todd - this is an important addition to Complete Peerage.1c Elizabeth; b 1398; m 2nd Lord (Baron) Grey (of Codnor)" as a dau of the 5th Earl of Kildare and his 2nd wife Agnes Darcy. Clearly from the Chancery entries which Todd timelines, the 5th Earl of Kildare had no daughter by his first wife (who was an
It's also a correction to Burke's Peerage (2003 edition), p. 2298 (sub Leinster), which has "1c Joan; m 1st Jenico Grey; m 2nd 1432 4th Earl of Ormonde and dsp July 1452" as a dau of the 5th Earl of Kildare and his first wife Margaret Rocheford, and "
Cheers, ----Brad
Speaking of John Stowe, is there some recent or scholarly edition of all his notes of
gravestones and monuments?
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:02:36 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
Speaking of John Stowe, is there some recent or scholarly edition of all his notes ofRegarding specifically this information, more recent, but as to more scholarly I will leave that for you to judge.
gravestones and monuments?
E. B. S. Shepherd, The Church of the Friars Minors, The Archaeological Journal, vol. 59, pp. 238-287 (with Joan's entry appearing p. 273)
https://books.google.com/books?id=i4vQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA239
taf
This would be a marriage easily overlooked through the centuries, as her two husbands were both 'Sir John Grey' in records - they became combined into one husband, her first one Tancarville, by whom she had her son and heir.
I wonder about the date (1335) assigned, however. Some of those earlier lords of Codnor had wives named Joan.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:09:51 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:Codnor, who did have a wife Joan. I am guessing that the editor, being unaware of the marriage of John 5th Lord to a Joan, simply jumped to the conclusion (or maybe in this case jumped to the confusion) that this was the Joan he was aware of, the 2nd
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:49:49 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
I wonder about the date (1335) assigned, however. Some of those earlier lords of Codnor had wives named Joan.Yeah, that's why I wasn't necessarily going to credit it with being scholarly.
Based on the description of his editing at the start of the list, the name of John, Lord Grey of Codnor, as Joan's husband was in the original, but the date of 1335 was added by the editor. This is actually the death date of Richard, 2nd Lord Grey of
tafYes, the original description seemingly doesn't include any date:
"--- dna Joha Gray, ux[o]r nobilis dni Johis Gray dni de Codnere."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081848610&view=1up&seq=297&skin=2021&q1=gray
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:of Codnor, who did have a wife Joan. I am guessing that the editor, being unaware of the marriage of John 5th Lord to a Joan, simply jumped to the conclusion (or maybe in this case jumped to the confusion) that this was the Joan he was aware of, the 2nd
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:09:51 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:49:49 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
I wonder about the date (1335) assigned, however. Some of those earlier lords of Codnor had wives named Joan.Yeah, that's why I wasn't necessarily going to credit it with being scholarly.
Based on the description of his editing at the start of the list, the name of John, Lord Grey of Codnor, as Joan's husband was in the original, but the date of 1335 was added by the editor. This is actually the death date of Richard, 2nd Lord Grey
tafYes, the original description seemingly doesn't include any date:
"--- dna Joha Gray, ux[o]r nobilis dni Johis Gray dni de Codnere."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081848610&view=1up&seq=297&skin=2021&q1=grayThis wasn't Stowe's list, but an earlier one he had used and quoted from.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:49:49 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:Codnor, who did have a wife Joan. I am guessing that the editor, being unaware of the marriage of John 5th Lord to a Joan, simply jumped to the conclusion (or maybe in this case jumped to the confusion) that this was the Joan he was aware of, the 2nd
I wonder about the date (1335) assigned, however. Some of those earlier lords of Codnor had wives named Joan.Yeah, that's why I wasn't necessarily going to credit it with being scholarly.
Based on the description of his editing at the start of the list, the name of John, Lord Grey of Codnor, as Joan's husband was in the original, but the date of 1335 was added by the editor. This is actually the death date of Richard, 2nd Lord Grey of
taf
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:24:33 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:Grey of Codnor, who did have a wife Joan. I am guessing that the editor, being unaware of the marriage of John 5th Lord to a Joan, simply jumped to the conclusion (or maybe in this case jumped to the confusion) that this was the Joan he was aware of, the
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:09:51 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:49:49 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
I wonder about the date (1335) assigned, however. Some of those earlier lords of Codnor had wives named Joan.Yeah, that's why I wasn't necessarily going to credit it with being scholarly.
Based on the description of his editing at the start of the list, the name of John, Lord Grey of Codnor, as Joan's husband was in the original, but the date of 1335 was added by the editor. This is actually the death date of Richard, 2nd Lord
tafYes, the original description seemingly doesn't include any date:
"--- dna Joha Gray, ux[o]r nobilis dni Johis Gray dni de Codnere."
Apparent reasoning for assigning 1335 as a date ... https://books.google.com/books?id=15oOAQAAIAAJ&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA92&dq=gray+codnere&hl=en&source=newbks_fb#v=onepage&q=gray%20codnere&f=falsehttps://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081848610&view=1up&seq=297&skin=2021&q1=grayThis wasn't Stowe's list, but an earlier one he had used and quoted from.
Anyone want to translate?capitaine de Tancarville en 1417 (3), gratifie le 17 septembre de cette annee du fief de Tilly, confisque sur la maison d'Harcourt. Ce Jehan Gray recut, en don, les fiefs de Talonnay et de la Gennevraye pres du Merlerault (4). Un certain Allain Gray, son
"John Gray, chevalier, en 1434 (1). Nous ne croyons pas qu'il y ait identite entre ce personnage et sir Gray de Codnore, gouverneur d'Argentan en 1417 (2), mais nous serions tente de reconnaitre le capitaine d'Exmes dans un certain John Gray, nomme
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:02:20 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:capitaine de Tancarville en 1417 (3), gratifie le 17 septembre de cette annee du fief de Tilly, confisque sur la maison d'Harcourt. Ce Jehan Gray recut, en don, les fiefs de Talonnay et de la Gennevraye pres du Merlerault (4). Un certain Allain Gray, son
Anyone want to translate?
"John Gray, chevalier, en 1434 (1). Nous ne croyons pas qu'il y ait identite entre ce personnage et sir Gray de Codnore, gouverneur d'Argentan en 1417 (2), mais nous serions tente de reconnaitre le capitaine d'Exmes dans un certain John Gray, nomme
Google Translate returns prose that is a bit awkward, but seems a reasonably accurate rendering:of Tancarville in 1417 (3), gratified on September 17 of that year with the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain Allain Gray, his
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named captain
Deepl Translate is pretty similar, though the middle part is rendered in more natural, less word-for-word English:captain of Tancarville in 1417 (3), who was given the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt, on September 17 of that year. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain Allain
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is an identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named
I think either of these are acceptable.
taf
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:14:03 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:capitaine de Tancarville en 1417 (3), gratifie le 17 septembre de cette annee du fief de Tilly, confisque sur la maison d'Harcourt. Ce Jehan Gray recut, en don, les fiefs de Talonnay et de la Gennevraye pres du Merlerault (4). Un certain Allain Gray, son
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:02:20 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
Anyone want to translate?
"John Gray, chevalier, en 1434 (1). Nous ne croyons pas qu'il y ait identite entre ce personnage et sir Gray de Codnore, gouverneur d'Argentan en 1417 (2), mais nous serions tente de reconnaitre le capitaine d'Exmes dans un certain John Gray, nomme
of Tancarville in 1417 (3), gratified on September 17 of that year with the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain Allain Gray, hisGoogle Translate returns prose that is a bit awkward, but seems a reasonably accurate rendering:
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named captain
captain of Tancarville in 1417 (3), who was given the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt, on September 17 of that year. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain AllainDeepl Translate is pretty similar, though the middle part is rendered in more natural, less word-for-word English:
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is an identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named
Tancarville can have still been living in 1434.I think either of these are acceptable.
tafOkay, so basically a miss-mash of notes about various Grays. The Grey of Codnor who was governor of Argentan in 1417 seems to have been Richard Grey of Codnor, father of John (d. 1430). But neither Sir John Grey of Codnor nor Sir John Gray of
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:44:49 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:nomme capitaine de Tancarville en 1417 (3), gratifie le 17 septembre de cette annee du fief de Tilly, confisque sur la maison d'Harcourt. Ce Jehan Gray recut, en don, les fiefs de Talonnay et de la Gennevraye pres du Merlerault (4). Un certain Allain
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:14:03 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:02:20 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
Anyone want to translate?
"John Gray, chevalier, en 1434 (1). Nous ne croyons pas qu'il y ait identite entre ce personnage et sir Gray de Codnore, gouverneur d'Argentan en 1417 (2), mais nous serions tente de reconnaitre le capitaine d'Exmes dans un certain John Gray,
captain of Tancarville in 1417 (3), gratified on September 17 of that year with the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain AllainGoogle Translate returns prose that is a bit awkward, but seems a reasonably accurate rendering:
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named
captain of Tancarville in 1417 (3), who was given the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt, on September 17 of that year. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain AllainDeepl Translate is pretty similar, though the middle part is rendered in more natural, less word-for-word English:
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is an identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named
Tancarville can have still been living in 1434.I think either of these are acceptable.
tafOkay, so basically a miss-mash of notes about various Grays. The Grey of Codnor who was governor of Argentan in 1417 seems to have been Richard Grey of Codnor, father of John (d. 1430). But neither Sir John Grey of Codnor nor Sir John Gray of
I guess this is pertaining to the Fitzgerald marriage:
Accounts for all Lordships of Elizabeth, Lady de Grey [of Codnor]
Reference: Mi M 137/6
Title: Accounts for all Lordships of Elizabeth, Lady de Grey [of Codnor] Description:
Includes Langwith (Derbyshire); Sapcote, Stanton (Leicestershire); Castelbitham, Cheal, Corby, Metheringham, Swinstead, South Witham (Lincolnshire); Benefield (Northamptonshire); Chedell (Staffordshire), Warfeld
Date: 1431-1432
Held by: Nottingham University Library, Department of Manuscripts and Special Collections, not available at The National Archives
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/96100bf4-4043-4564-b924-6c74bbb01547
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 9:57:51 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:nomme capitaine de Tancarville en 1417 (3), gratifie le 17 septembre de cette annee du fief de Tilly, confisque sur la maison d'Harcourt. Ce Jehan Gray recut, en don, les fiefs de Talonnay et de la Gennevraye pres du Merlerault (4). Un certain Allain
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:44:49 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:14:03 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:02:20 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
Anyone want to translate?
"John Gray, chevalier, en 1434 (1). Nous ne croyons pas qu'il y ait identite entre ce personnage et sir Gray de Codnore, gouverneur d'Argentan en 1417 (2), mais nous serions tente de reconnaitre le capitaine d'Exmes dans un certain John Gray,
captain of Tancarville in 1417 (3), gratified on September 17 of that year with the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain AllainGoogle Translate returns prose that is a bit awkward, but seems a reasonably accurate rendering:
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named
captain of Tancarville in 1417 (3), who was given the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt, on September 17 of that year. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain AllainDeepl Translate is pretty similar, though the middle part is rendered in more natural, less word-for-word English:
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is an identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named
Tancarville can have still been living in 1434.I think either of these are acceptable.
tafOkay, so basically a miss-mash of notes about various Grays. The Grey of Codnor who was governor of Argentan in 1417 seems to have been Richard Grey of Codnor, father of John (d. 1430). But neither Sir John Grey of Codnor nor Sir John Gray of
I guess this is pertaining to the Fitzgerald marriage:
Accounts for all Lordships of Elizabeth, Lady de Grey [of Codnor]
Reference: Mi M 137/6
Title: Accounts for all Lordships of Elizabeth, Lady de Grey [of Codnor] Description:
Includes Langwith (Derbyshire); Sapcote, Stanton (Leicestershire); Castelbitham, Cheal, Corby, Metheringham, Swinstead, South Witham (Lincolnshire); Benefield (Northamptonshire); Chedell (Staffordshire), WarfeldHere's another statement that Joan was wife, not widow, of John "Gray" around 4 Henry VI. In connection with some Mortimers and Hollands.
Date: 1431-1432
Held by: Nottingham University Library, Department of Manuscripts and Special Collections, not available at The National Archives
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/96100bf4-4043-4564-b924-6c74bbb01547
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002034557265&view=1up&seq=402&skin=2021&q1=%22joan%20wife%20of%20john%20gray%22
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 1:15:11 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:nomme capitaine de Tancarville en 1417 (3), gratifie le 17 septembre de cette annee du fief de Tilly, confisque sur la maison d'Harcourt. Ce Jehan Gray recut, en don, les fiefs de Talonnay et de la Gennevraye pres du Merlerault (4). Un certain Allain
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 9:57:51 AM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:44:49 PM UTC-4, Johnny Brananas wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:14:03 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:02:20 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
Anyone want to translate?
"John Gray, chevalier, en 1434 (1). Nous ne croyons pas qu'il y ait identite entre ce personnage et sir Gray de Codnore, gouverneur d'Argentan en 1417 (2), mais nous serions tente de reconnaitre le capitaine d'Exmes dans un certain John Gray,
captain of Tancarville in 1417 (3), gratified on September 17 of that year with the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certain AllainGoogle Translate returns prose that is a bit awkward, but seems a reasonably accurate rendering:
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray, named
named captain of Tancarville in 1417 (3), who was given the fief of Tilly, confiscated from the house of Harcourt, on September 17 of that year. This Jehan Gray received, as a gift, the fiefs of Talonnay and Gennevraye near Merlerault (4). A certainDeepl Translate is pretty similar, though the middle part is rendered in more natural, less word-for-word English:
John Gray, knight, in 1434 (1). We do not believe that there is an identity between this character and Sir Gray de Codnore, governor of Argentan in 1417 (2), but we would be tempted to recognize the captain of Exmes in a certain John Gray,
Tancarville can have still been living in 1434.I think either of these are acceptable.
tafOkay, so basically a miss-mash of notes about various Grays. The Grey of Codnor who was governor of Argentan in 1417 seems to have been Richard Grey of Codnor, father of John (d. 1430). But neither Sir John Grey of Codnor nor Sir John Gray of
I guess this is pertaining to the Fitzgerald marriage:
Accounts for all Lordships of Elizabeth, Lady de Grey [of Codnor]
Reference: Mi M 137/6
Title: Accounts for all Lordships of Elizabeth, Lady de Grey [of Codnor] Description:
Includes Langwith (Derbyshire); Sapcote, Stanton (Leicestershire); Castelbitham, Cheal, Corby, Metheringham, Swinstead, South Witham (Lincolnshire); Benefield (Northamptonshire); Chedell (Staffordshire), WarfeldHere's another statement that Joan was wife, not widow, of John "Gray" around 4 Henry VI. In connection with some Mortimers and Hollands.
Date: 1431-1432
Held by: Nottingham University Library, Department of Manuscripts and Special Collections, not available at The National Archives
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/96100bf4-4043-4564-b924-6c74bbb01547
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002034557265&view=1up&seq=402&skin=2021&q1=%22joan%20wife%20of%20john%20gray%22"In 1421, for example, Henry V sent Lord Grey de Codenore to the Fleet for remaining in England after he had been exiled."
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Kingis_Quair_and_Other_Prison_Poems/_VSoDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22grey+de+codenore%22+joan&pg=PA10&printsec=frontcover
Could this have been over a displeasing marriage in the view of the King?
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