• Re: Francis Hutton, father-in-law of George Thomason

    From Almitra Thomas@21:1/5 to Matthew Connolly on Wed Sep 22 15:03:59 2021
    On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 2:04:32 PM UTC-6, Matthew Connolly wrote:
    On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 4:24:24 PM UTC, Mary Morgan wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 5:58:58 PM UTC-5, Matthew Connolly wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 9:41:29 PM UTC, Mary Morgan wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 2:32:44 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
    On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 11:36:54 AM UTC-8, Mary Morgan wrote:
    The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
    I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not only
    is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her
    second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
    https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
    20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to
    this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said
    Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son;
    Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
    Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter
    of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.

    Cheers, -----Brad
    Brad,
    Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a felony
    shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
    At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.

    Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married at
    the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.

    Mary
    Do you happen to know anything about who this Thomas Musgrave (the predeceased son of William who d.1597) married, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her named? It was my understanding that his daughter Isabel was indeed the one who married Musgrave
    and Vaux (I have a descent from the latter marriage), I’ll see if I can locate the references.

    -Matthew
    Matthew,
    I have not found any reference to the wife of this Thomas Musgrave. I rechecked my copy of the Will of his father William Musgrave, but the Will does not mention Thomas's wife.
    Mary
    Thanks Mary, she doesn’t seem to have left much trace - it may be that she died young, or (if she survived) remarried into another family, so was only briefly a Musgrave.

    Does anyone have any information on the Francis Hutton (circa 1578-1614), mentioned in the initial question? Francis Hutton was in the retinue of Count Gondomar and as mentioned Francis Hutton and his wife, Mary Fetherston, an aunt of the first baronet
    Fetherston, were the parents of the Katherine Hutton who married George Thomason, the collector of the English Civil Wars-era tracts now in the British Library.
    Thank you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Almitra Thomas on Thu Sep 23 12:49:03 2021
    On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 3:04:01 PM UTC-7, Almitra Thomas wrote:
    On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 2:04:32 PM UTC-6, Matthew Connolly wrote:
    On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 4:24:24 PM UTC, Mary Morgan wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 5:58:58 PM UTC-5, Matthew Connolly wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 9:41:29 PM UTC, Mary Morgan wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 2:32:44 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
    On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 11:36:54 AM UTC-8, Mary Morgan wrote:
    The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
    I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not
    only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her
    second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
    https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
    20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to
    this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said
    Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son;
    Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
    Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter
    of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.

    Cheers, -----Brad
    Brad,
    Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a felony
    shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
    At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.

    Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married
    at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.

    Mary
    Do you happen to know anything about who this Thomas Musgrave (the predeceased son of William who d.1597) married, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her named? It was my understanding that his daughter Isabel was indeed the one who married
    Musgrave and Vaux (I have a descent from the latter marriage), I’ll see if I can locate the references.

    -Matthew
    Matthew,
    I have not found any reference to the wife of this Thomas Musgrave. I rechecked my copy of the Will of his father William Musgrave, but the Will does not mention Thomas's wife.
    Mary
    Thanks Mary, she doesn’t seem to have left much trace - it may be that she died young, or (if she survived) remarried into another family, so was only briefly a Musgrave.
    Does anyone have any information on the Francis Hutton (circa 1578-1614), mentioned in the initial question? Francis Hutton was in the retinue of Count Gondomar and as mentioned Francis Hutton and his wife, Mary Fetherston, an aunt of the first baronet
    Fetherston, were the parents of the Katherine Hutton who married George Thomason, the collector of the English Civil Wars-era tracts now in the British Library.
    Thank you.

    What is your source for this alleged birth year and death year?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Almitra Thomas@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 23 15:58:00 2021
    On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 2:49:05 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 3:04:01 PM UTC-7, Almitra Thomas wrote:
    On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 2:04:32 PM UTC-6, Matthew Connolly wrote:
    On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 4:24:24 PM UTC, Mary Morgan wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 5:58:58 PM UTC-5, Matthew Connolly wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 9:41:29 PM UTC, Mary Morgan wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 2:32:44 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
    On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 11:36:54 AM UTC-8, Mary Morgan wrote:
    The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
    I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not
    only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her
    second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
    https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
    20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle
    to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said
    Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son;
    Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
    Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her)
    daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.

    Cheers, -----Brad
    Brad,
    Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a
    felony shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
    At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.

    Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married
    at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.

    Mary
    Do you happen to know anything about who this Thomas Musgrave (the predeceased son of William who d.1597) married, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her named? It was my understanding that his daughter Isabel was indeed the one who married
    Musgrave and Vaux (I have a descent from the latter marriage), I’ll see if I can locate the references.

    -Matthew
    Matthew,
    I have not found any reference to the wife of this Thomas Musgrave. I rechecked my copy of the Will of his father William Musgrave, but the Will does not mention Thomas's wife.
    Mary
    Thanks Mary, she doesn’t seem to have left much trace - it may be that she died young, or (if she survived) remarried into another family, so was only briefly a Musgrave.
    Does anyone have any information on the Francis Hutton (circa 1578-1614), mentioned in the initial question? Francis Hutton was in the retinue of Count Gondomar and as mentioned Francis Hutton and his wife, Mary Fetherston, an aunt of the first
    baronet Fetherston, were the parents of the Katherine Hutton who married George Thomason, the collector of the English Civil Wars-era tracts now in the British Library.
    Thank you.
    What is your source for this alleged birth year and death year?
    I don't have a formal source; I found Ancestry trees online (which I know can be full of errors) and info from geni.com
    So, I am not sure those dates are correct. Any insight would be appreciated.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Almitra Thomas on Thu Sep 23 19:17:11 2021
    On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 3:58:02 PM UTC-7, Almitra Thomas wrote:
    On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 2:49:05 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 3:04:01 PM UTC-7, Almitra Thomas wrote:
    On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 2:04:32 PM UTC-6, Matthew Connolly wrote:
    On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 4:24:24 PM UTC, Mary Morgan wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 5:58:58 PM UTC-5, Matthew Connolly wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 9:41:29 PM UTC, Mary Morgan wrote:
    On Saturday, March 6, 2021 at 2:32:44 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
    On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 11:36:54 AM UTC-8, Mary Morgan wrote:
    The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
    I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not
    only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her
    second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
    https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
    20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country,
    uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of
    said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit
    son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
    Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her)
    daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.

    Cheers, -----Brad
    Brad,
    Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a
    felony shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
    At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.

    Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not
    married at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.

    Mary
    Do you happen to know anything about who this Thomas Musgrave (the predeceased son of William who d.1597) married, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her named? It was my understanding that his daughter Isabel was indeed the one who married
    Musgrave and Vaux (I have a descent from the latter marriage), I’ll see if I can locate the references.

    -Matthew
    Matthew,
    I have not found any reference to the wife of this Thomas Musgrave. I rechecked my copy of the Will of his father William Musgrave, but the Will does not mention Thomas's wife.
    Mary
    Thanks Mary, she doesn’t seem to have left much trace - it may be that she died young, or (if she survived) remarried into another family, so was only briefly a Musgrave.
    Does anyone have any information on the Francis Hutton (circa 1578-1614), mentioned in the initial question? Francis Hutton was in the retinue of Count Gondomar and as mentioned Francis Hutton and his wife, Mary Fetherston, an aunt of the first
    baronet Fetherston, were the parents of the Katherine Hutton who married George Thomason, the collector of the English Civil Wars-era tracts now in the British Library.
    Thank you.
    What is your source for this alleged birth year and death year?
    I don't have a formal source; I found Ancestry trees online (which I know can be full of errors) and info from geni.com
    So, I am not sure those dates are correct. Any insight would be appreciated.

    My first insight to to completely erase them. They are based on nothing.
    Then try to find a good reputable source for this person

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to Almitra Thomas on Thu Sep 23 20:02:13 2021
    On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 3:04:01 PM UTC-7, Almitra Thomas wrote:
    Does anyone have any information on the Francis Hutton (circa 1578-1614), mentioned
    in the initial question? Francis Hutton was in the retinue of Count Gondomar

    This is probably intended to be Diego Sarmiento de Acuña, though he wasn't made 1st Count of Gondomar until 1617, after Hutton was dead.

    taf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joel Rane@21:1/5 to davt...@gmail.com on Tue Dec 14 18:14:03 2021
    On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 7:37:30 PM UTC-8, davt...@gmail.com wrote:
    Can anyone tell me whether Sir Richard Hutton of Goldsborough, Justice of the Common Pleas (1560-1639), who was descended from Edward III via Lionel of Antwerp, and his wife Agnes Briggs, were the parents of the Francis Hutton who was in the retinue of
    Count Gondomar?

    Francis Hutton and his wife, Mary Fetherston, an aunt of the first baronet Fetherston, were the parents of the Katherine Hutton who married George Thomason, the collector of the English Civil Wars-era tracts now in the British Library.

    Thanks in advance.

    Greetings,
    I know I am late to the game, but I can't find any evidence for Francis, or that he was part of the "retinue" of Count Gondomar. I did find that a Henry Hutton was King James' ambassador to the Dutch Republic in the early 17th century, when it was still
    fresh from rebellion and not recognized by Spain, so he was mentioned in several letters by Gondomar. I don't know if this was the Henry who was one of Richard's sons either, as that Henry is named as a reverend in Cumbria.

    What is interesting is that a Henry Hutton was a satirist and a poet during this period, and it could be that this poet - who is someone that George Thomason would probably have known - was the reverend who was also the son of Richard Hutton. However,
    he was from Durham, not Cumbria, and from his writing was related to the family of Matthew Hutton, the Archbishop of York.

    It looks like it could be fun to research. For the record, my great-grandmother was Bertha Mae Thomason of Columbus, Georgia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)