On Sun, 14 Sep 2014 15:41:34 -0700 (PDT), ms.p.j....@gmail.com
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
On Thursday, January 14, 1999 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Chris Thomas wrote:All this is non-sense and not documented. No reliable source shows
Would appreciate any help on the two lines below. They are my bridge across
the "big pond" and I'm looking for as much verification as I can find.
Gaspard de Coligny was a leader of the Protestant movement and was killed >> during the St Bartholemew's Day Massacre. His father was Admiral of France
and married a Charlotte de Laval who died in 1568. Any help would be
greatly appreciated.
Chris Thomas
ct9...@gte.net
Descendants of Nicolas Mousche Musse
1 Nicolas MUIS b: 1540 in Gryon, Switzerland d: August 25, 1572 in
Paris, France
. +Jeanne DE MEULLON b: 1545 m: June 05, 1569 d: Unknown Father: Mother: >> 2 Claude Antoine Mius DE MEULLON b: 1570 in Normandy, France d: Unknown >> in Savoy, France
.. +Beatrice DE COLIGNY b: 1572 in Savoy, France m: June 17, 1600 in Savoy,
France d: Unknown in Savoy, France Father: Admiral of France, Gaspard II de
Coligny Mother: Jacqueline De Montbel
3 Philippe Mius D'ENTREMONT b: November 14, 1601 in Cherbourg, Normandy >> FR d: 1700 in Pobomcoup, Acadia
.. +Madeleine HELIE DU TILLET b: 1626 in Cherbourg, Normandy, France m: >> 1640 in Calvados France (possibly as late as 1649) d: 1679 in Pobomcoup, >> Acadia Father: Jacques Helie Du Tillet Mother: Francoise Faucon
parents for Philippe Mius or Madeleine Helie. It is useless to add
parents to fictive parents...
DenisI know it has been more than 7 months and half since this, but as the thread was revived, I should note Wikitree says at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mius-18 that the parentage is a theory.
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/ French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/ Sur cédérom à 1785 - On CD-ROM to 1785
This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremontline, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted byJacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which lookslike the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To
Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).
On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:14:43 AM UTC-7, Owen Caddell wrote:line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont
Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family hadColigny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by
like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. ToAs far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks
lmao the muss/muise name has changed and been varied so many times id love to hear your half baked theories about why that isArthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).Ah, so "a book" of unknown quality, with theories which may be backed by evidence, but going by the Muss/Mius bit, likely not reliable.
On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:14:43 AM UTC-7, Owen Caddell wrote:line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont
Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family hadColigny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by
like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. ToAs far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks
Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).Ah, so "a book" of unknown quality, with theories which may be backed by evidence, but going by the Muss/Mius bit, likely not reliable.
On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 16:36:49 UTC-7, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What
On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:14:43 AM UTC-7, Owen Caddell wrote:
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which
On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:29:12 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddelllooks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 16:36:49 UTC-7, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:14:43 AM UTC-7, Owen Caddell wrote:
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which
pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic.What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being
murdered for their faith?
A lot of Mius/D'Entremont tested their DNA and thus far, no
French link.
Muise is not a "modern" pronunciation but adaptation to English.
Muir is a common English name and its sounds like m-ee-your, so
similar to muise sounding like m-ee-youz, not far from French
m-ee-ouss.
http://www.geopatronyme.com/
49 occurences in France, 44 in Seine-Maritime, which is Normandy.
It can be from descendants of Acadians more than cousins of Acadians.
https://gbkcouples.geneabank.org/nom/?name=mius&place=&start=&end=
First occurence in this database in Puy de Dôme, which is more South
of France.
5 for a mother, Gaspard BUNEL m Marie MIUS before 1675 (3) and
2 where the godmother is Marie Mius.
Also, a lot of Miousse or Musse. But there is no evidence the
Mius could be Musse.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 15:33:41 UTC-7, Denis Beauregard wrote:looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the
On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:29:12 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 16:36:49 UTC-7, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:14:43 AM UTC-7, Owen Caddell wrote:
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which
What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents beingpronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic.
murdered for their faith?
A lot of Mius/D'Entremont tested their DNA and thus far, no
French link.
Muise is not a "modern" pronunciation but adaptation to English.
Muir is a common English name and its sounds like m-ee-your, so
similar to muise sounding like m-ee-youz, not far from French
m-ee-ouss.
http://www.geopatronyme.com/
49 occurences in France, 44 in Seine-Maritime, which is Normandy.
It can be from descendants of Acadians more than cousins of Acadians.
https://gbkcouples.geneabank.org/nom/?name=mius&place=&start=&end=
First occurence in this database in Puy de Dôme, which is more South
of France.
5 for a mother, Gaspard BUNEL m Marie MIUS before 1675 (3) and
2 where the godmother is Marie Mius.
Also, a lot of Miousse or Musse. But there is no evidence the
Mius could be Musse.
Denis
--Thanks for a bunch of contradicting googled nonsense that helped nobody. There is zero evidence linking "Muss" to "Mius"? Right. Not like Nicolas Muss was best friends with the husband of Jacquelin d'Entremont. Slow clap for you.
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about when the Mius d'Entremont family would have converted from being Huguenots to Catholics.
My assumption that Philippe was Huguenot is based on the fact that his (as most believe) grandfather Nicolas was the German translator for a very powerful Protestant Admiral Coligny.
I also believe Philippe may have left France in the first place due to Catholic pressure. That Philippe was a good friend of Charles de La Tour is another indication of his being a member of the Religion. At the very least Charles' father Claude was aProtestant whom sided with Scottish in the New World.
My belief that the present d'Entremonts are Catholic stems from the fact that the famed honourable historian goes by "Father" Clarence d'Entremont and to my knowledge to call oneself "Father" is rather Catholic. Said d'Entremont, along with the lovelyBernice who runs the Pubnico museum, seem very uninterested in discussing pre-settlement Mius d'Entremont history nor
the possibility that Philippe is actually a descendant of Admiral Coligny.
I understand that Philippe's youngest son Philippe ll married and lived amongst the Mi'kmaq, this family birthing many important Mi'kmaq chiefs over the proceeding centuries bearing the surname "Muise." I also understand that the Mi'kmaq are mostly aRoman Catholic people since European invasion. My question is, when did the conversion of Mius d'Entremonts from Huguenot to Catholic occur and under what pressures? Thanks guys.
I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about when the Mius d'Entremont family would have converted from being Huguenots to Catholics.
Hello Denis thank you for your reply.Aulnay, tolerating La Tour due to his Protestant leanings. As well, Charles' second
I am wondering if you have read Fortune and La Tour by Marjorie Macdonald? She goes over in detail Claude's Protestant leanings and Charles' relationship with Protestant New English, who tolerated him and fought alongside him against the Catholic d'
I am wondering if you are aware that Jacquelin d'Entremonts is the second wife of Admiral Coligny? Do you suppose this is, in fact, not someone that the d'Entremonts of Acadia have any genealogical association with?
Hello Denis
Why do you suppose Philippe would have been given the title of Lieutenant Governor of Acadie and given such a large strip of land (Pobomcoup), if he was not some sort of prestigious person?
I'm sorry I really tried to leave this alone but I just can't: You are really hypothesizing about a region in France called Pobomcoup? I'm sorry but I can't put this politely - that is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Pobomcoup is quite obviously a Mi'kmaq word, if you studied their language for about five minutes that would become obvious, Pogomkook is written on Samuel de Champlain's early maps of Acadie. Like that is just such a stupid thing to say to the point where I feel you have some sort of clear bias against the d'Entremonts, perhaps you are a descendant of Charles
of research my friend.
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:33:27 -0700 (PDT), Owen CaddellMi'kmaq word, if you studied their language for about five minutes that would
<owen...> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
I'm sorry I really tried to leave this alone but I just can't: You are really hypothesizing about a region in France called Pobomcoup? I'm sorry but I can't put this politely - that is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Pobomcoup is quite obviously a
become obvious, Pogomkook is written on Samuel de Champlain's early maps of Acadie. Like that is just such a stupid thing to say to the point where I feel you have some sort of clear bias against the d'Entremonts, perhaps you are a descendant ofCharles d'Aulnay and carry some sort of bitterness over the fact that your ancestor was
a puke and a dishonourable liar. I also can't let go how foolish you sound arguing Charles La Tour was Catholic. Literally every book about the man states clearly he was a Protestant. Like have you ever even read a book? Or are you just interested inattempting to sabotage the d'Entremont name? You are a disgrace to the whole
concept
of research my friend.Not only you don't cite the article to which you answer, but you
forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 6:58:55 PM UTC-3, Denis Beauregard wrote:research of H. Léander d'Entremont (the uncle of F. Clarence d'Entremont). However,
Not only you don't cite the article to which you answer, but you
forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.
If we could find some European descendants of the old Mius line, that would be great. Before, hopping to the nobility link which seems to more of a stretch, if not a dead end. A previous post referred to a Smith, but the idea came about through the
From quite a phew d'Entremont relatives (direct to Philippe Mius d'Entremont) Y-DNA haplogroup is 'E1b1b1'. Finding more in Europe to match would be needed. I think one match was found, a Mius, with a link tracing pre-deportation to Haute-Normandie.More mtDNA would be needed I think (not quite current on this).
On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:57:31 -0800 (PST), Pierrette Dentremont <pier...@sentiolife.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:research of H. Léander d'Entremont (the uncle of F. Clarence d'Entremont). However,
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 6:58:55 PM UTC-3, Denis Beauregard wrote:
Not only you don't cite the article to which you answer, but youIf we could find some European descendants of the old Mius line, that would be great. Before, hopping to the nobility link which seems to more of a stretch, if not a dead end. A previous post referred to a Smith, but the idea came about through the
forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.
François Virginie Bon, comte d'Entremont et de Montbel (1601 - 1671) seems to have been the actual son of Claude-Antoine d'Albon/Bon/de Meuillon and Béatrice de Coligny.More mtDNA would be needed I think (not quite current on this).
You should read the whole message. See the part I kept. THERE IS A
MIUS FROM NORMANDY who is matching the Y DNA.
From quite a phew d'Entremont relatives (direct to Philippe Mius d'Entremont) Y-DNA haplogroup is 'E1b1b1'. Finding more in Europe to match would be needed. I think one match was found, a Mius, with a link tracing pre-deportation to Haute-Normandie.
mtDNA won't help to confirm a male lineage but there is known mtDNAThis is what I have:
for Madeleine Helie. But a female lineage is harder to find as the
name is changed for each generation.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
I descend from the Montbel d'Entremont as well as the de Coligny, if it is of any interest. My family was Bressane.refer to a piece of land in Acadie, not the 8000 odd hectares of Land of the baronie d'Entremont in Bresse.
I was of the same opinion as the late Addams Reitweisner on the Mius connection to the dynasties of the Montbel and Coligny. His family was from Normandy, not form the Eastern part of France. the original grantor was also 'sieur' d'Entremonts which may
On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 09:21:09 -0800 (PST), Peter de Loriol Chandieu <peterdelor...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:may refer to a piece of land in Acadie, not the 8000 odd hectares of Land of the
I descend from the Montbel d'Entremont as well as the de Coligny, if it is of any interest. My family was Bressane.
I was of the same opinion as the late Addams Reitweisner on the Mius connection to the dynasties of the Montbel and Coligny. His family was from Normandy, not form the Eastern part of France. the original grantor was also 'sieur' d'Entremonts which
baronie d'Entremont in Bresse.
Indeed, nothing links the Mius to the Coligny except that
"d'Entremont" title. And Y DNA is linking the Mius to a French
family (while I am still trying to find some French record about
the French cousins).
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:10:10 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddellone can theorise as much and as long as anything, but the answer remains that just being called Mius d'Entremont does not proclaim ANY relation to The dynastic family of Montbel d'Entremonts.
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
Insulting is your only response when you have definitely no answer.
Plonk.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not descend from Philippe Mius d’Entremont, but just looking over this thread I would say at best you only have a hypothesis that he might be related to Admiral de Coligny. You need more evidence to test thishypothesis.
As for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance onceor just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off as noble by
La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating withProtestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.
Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’Entremontin the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.
Given the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow researchon Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locate original
Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.
On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Owen CaddellAs Denis says, it does not matter where Pobomcoup was, what matters is what the DNA shews; it shows that the Meus were from the Eastern seaboard.
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOODon't change my words:
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be >possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.
Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
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On Tuesday, 14 March 2023 at 16:12:59 UTC-7, JPD wrote:this hypothesis.
I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not descend from Philippe Mius d’Entremont, but just looking over this thread I would say at best you only have a hypothesis that he might be related to Admiral de Coligny. You need more evidence to test
once or just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off asAs for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance
with Protestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating
Entremont in the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’
research on Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locateGiven the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow
Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremontline, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted byJacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which lookslike the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To
Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).
This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. <<
On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOODon't change my words:
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be >possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.
Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:28:00?PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.
Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
Denis, I wouldn't even worry about it at this point... someone who insults people in that manner and choose to live in a fantasy world deserves stone cold silence.
The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:06:03 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque" <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:28:00?PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote: >> >That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.
Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
Denis, I wouldn't even worry about it at this point... someone who insults people in that manner and choose to live in a fantasy world deserves stone cold silence.
The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.For Pobomcoup, perhaps. But Entremont is definitely French. Azy sounds
more French than Native.
My ancester was André Jarret sieur de Beauregard and there is a place
named Beauregard in the town where he was born in 1642. For his
half-brother François Jarret de Verchères, there are many small places named Verchères but none close enough to be sure it is the right
place.
For many dit names, descendants found a small place of that name in
France. So once the place of origin of the Mius is found, then it may
be possible that some small place Azy or Entremont could be found.
That said, I found a Charles Theroude married to Marie Mius from
Avremesnil (76) and a Mellon Delamotte married to Jeanne Mius from
Rouen (76), both living around 1750.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
I was only talking about Pobomcoup of course! Sorry I confused you.
André Jarret, sieur de Beauregard, and my direct paternal ancestor, Philibert Couillaud dit Rocbrune, served together in the Contrecoeur company of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and were true friends. Alas, any record of my ancestor in France doesnot exist, but DNA shows him to be of Border Scots ancestry, so he is probably a
I understood that. But in some cases, it was found that a "Native"
word was not. For example, Quebec is sometimes presumed to be a
cousin of places like Bricquebec in France !
When I made my last travel to France in 2018, I remember I saw
something sounding like a Mius domain. I took no note so I just
don't remember what I saw, perhaps in Dieppe or Rouen. I verified
the photos I have but no hint. I thought I could find it easily
when back home, but this didn't happen !
Why not joining my French Heritage project ? I see one of the
Larocque made a Big Y, with some English deep match. The common
ancestor would be 1400 years ago.
But I see no name and I don't see you as a match. Were you tested
with something like Dante or FGC or Nebula and then on Yfull ? Or
with 23andme, which is less accutare ?
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be avariation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque" <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a
Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:38 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque" <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be
soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few ScotsPhilibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htmFrom the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Denis
--I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a
DarrellThe de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde Ecossaise,
On Tuesday, 28 March 2023 at 20:05:56 UTC+1, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:38 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque" <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could
a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few ScotsPhilibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htmFrom the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Denis
--I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of
ancestor of the present.DarrellThe de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde Ecossaise,
the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.
Peter
Not quite.
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start
On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 4:13:31 AM UTC-4, Peter de Loriol Chandieu wrote:could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
On Tuesday, 28 March 2023 at 20:05:56 UTC+1, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:38 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque" <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune
of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the fewPhilibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htmFrom the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be too different for a common ancestor after the family names were inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Denis
--I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant
Ecossaise, ancestor of the present.DarrellThe de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde
Carignan-Salières Regiment and he sticks out like a sore thumb. This is why researchers in the past have been frustrated by his origins. His marriage occurred in New France and there appears to be no ties to his wife's family back in France.the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.
PeterPeter,
The problem that I have is that Philibert Couillaud dit Rocquebrune names himself as "of Nevers in the diocese of Nivernais", which makes him a very interesting case. Not many immigrants to New France were from this region, especially men of the
There are two events which have radically changed his history- a false representation of his ancestry by a man named Robert de Roquebrune who made up an ancestry and had it published, and the Y-DNA results which revealed his past ancestry to be tied tothe families of Allan, Preston, Dunn, Cockburn and Dunbar in Scotland.
It is true that Couillaud is an Angevin name, but without any clues as to how Scottish DNA is tied to this fact and ending up at the western border of Burgundy thanks to French bioethics law and a dearth or records, we are at a point where nothing morecan be discovered.
Darrell
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:34:06 PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:could be solved!
Not quite.Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start
Darrell
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 7:54:41?PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:could be solved!
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:34:06?PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
Not quite.Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start
Darrell
The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
Quebecois samples can be used.
On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnsoncould be solved!
<wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 7:54:41?PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote: >> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:34:06?PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
Not quite.Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start
Darrell
The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all. >Quebecois samples can be used.The problem with Couillaud dit Larocque dit Roquebrune, Mius, many
Acadians and some Quebecois is that while there is some Y DNA
signature (quality may vary, from Big Y to YSTR-37 or 23andme and from optimal (MRCA is the immigrant) to some generations more recent or
even NPE, but the place of origin unknown.
In some cases, a French testee will help to find the place of origin
in France (same name and very good Y DNA match), and in some cases,
even reaching the Medieval times.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 2:35:04?PM UTC-7, Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
<wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
Quebecois samples can be used.
I'm speaking of autosomal clusters however
Not Y
I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters
On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:44:05?PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters
The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
This is clustering
On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:44:05 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this methodThe problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
This is clustering
On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:46:02 PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:descendants of French immigrants wouldn't mean NEARLY as much as clusters would from France. We are actually related to each other many times over.
On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:44:05 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this methodThe problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
You need to combine the matches across multiple testsWill,
This is clustering
I don't think you understand the difficulty we have with Philibert Couillaud dit Rocqubrune. He said he was from Nevers, which is from a region of France that has very few immigrants in New France. The DNA cluster results for all of us who are
We need FRENCH DNA badly. We cannot simply rely on clusters of cousins that exclude French ones... imagine someone telling you that they walked from Paris to Calais and them only telling you that they didn't use any major roads. How are you supposed tofigure out the points in the middle? I have DNA information from:
Op den Velde, Stercken and De Peuter in Netherlandsclusters, we are blind.
Ruut in Estonia
Edgar, Langley in England
Osborne in Ireland
Allen, Riddell, Preston, Cockburn, Dunbar, Fraser, Harcus/Arcus in Scotland
This doesn't get us anywhere, it only tells us that in a time period farther back than we need, our Scottish ancestors spread out to the nations present around the North Sea. So, we need to connect Scotland to Quebec, and without the French DNA
Denis isn't familiar with Larocque like I am of course, but he knows how difficult it is to deal with ancestors with no documented past in France.
Darrell
So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
<wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.Because of founding effect, this is not true.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.
Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
comparable. So, this is an important distinction.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 8:36:33 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.Because of founding effect, this is not true.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.
Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
comparable. So, this is an important distinction.
Denis
--You said it better than I could... the founding effect... a small population of people related to each other in many ways is not comparable to the French population! We have the edges of the puzzle but the middle is locked behind French bioethics law...
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Darrell
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
<wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.Because of founding effect, this is not true.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.
And you must be lucky to have something stable after 6 generations.
All that can be consistent would be a sticky segment and you can't
predict it will survive. If you check the segments from FTDNA or
23andme (both are providing the positions of segments), you will see
that set of sticky segments is very small if you compare it to the
number of ancestors you may have after 6 generations.
--
By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.
In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 10:59:30 AM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.
By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.
In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 5:56:55 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 10:59:30 AM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.
In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a
Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 9:08:10?PM UTC-4, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:that by your logic this would not be an issue. See what I mean? I don't see how you can definitively conclude your clusters are the solution when someone like Pierre Allard that has a much larger representation by diocese doesn't even have a genetic solution for ancestry.
Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.
I am curious now that I think about it... where does Pierre Allard come from besides being from Sainte-Hermine, Luçon? Why hasn't DNA already told us more about his past? You would think that if there was such a large amount of immigrants from Poitou
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