On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 8:38:01 AM UTC-6, taf wrote:

On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 4:13:04 AM UTC-8, beatrice....@gmail.com wrote:

Leo van de Pas complètement con et nul, bien qu'il aie peut être - raison...Cheddar Man prouve sans doute que les trait négroïde de
cette reine est sans doute directement de la lignée de Cheddar Man !

This is so very wrong. Her perceived African traits were not due to descent from Cheddar Man, obvious from geography alone - any contribution from Cheddar Man would have been truly insignificant - the latest genetic findings show that the English

hunter-gatherers, among whom was Cheddar man, were almost completely supplanted/replaced, and made very little genetic contribution to subsequent Brits, let alone Germans. Germany had their own stone-age hunter-gathereres, who would indeed have had
darker skin (and blue eyes), but this would not have made Charlotte her 'look African'. The one most notable so-called 'Negroid trait' that Cheddar Man had, dark skin, is the one that Charlotte did not possess - it is her facial topography that is
claimed to be 'African' and if you look at the Cheddar Man's skull, it is clear that with this regard the facial reconstruction of Cheddar Man was completely made up, as the determinative bone structures do not survive (and can't yet be extrapolated from
genetics). If it violates the nature of genetics to suggest that these traits could have passed 15 generations without a trace and then suddenly popped up, what does it say about your proposal, that it would pass 450 generations and then pop up in one
woman among the entire European population that would have shared such ancestry?

If Charlotte had African features, it was because an immediate ancestor, probably within three generations, was a sub-Saharan African, in which case one of her parents would have looked more 'African' than she did - that is how genetics really works

for the features we are talking about. Neither parent did, so that only admits two solutions: 1) one of her 'parents' was not really her parent; or 2) that she didn't have African features, but some of her features were exaggerated/distorted to look that
way by one or more artists who painted her (either through incompetence or as a political statement).

Taf : Je ne vois pas ce que les Arabes viennent faire dans ce débat ce ne sont que les 1er pilleurs, violeurs, voleurs que mes ancêtres ont fait confiance et les ont laissé s'installer sur le continent...Bref, si nous n'avons pas été spolier, voler, usurper? FALSIFIER... Nous n'aurons pas besoin à chaque fois d’essayer de rétablir, de trouver nos Ailleux ! On
va donc heu pardon, vos scientifiques qui sont des chercheurs de vérités,
vont continuer à trouver des Cheddar-Man partout... Et vous verrez qui sont sont les 1er et véritable peuple de cette planète !

Unclear what you are trying to say here, but it doesn't appear to have anything to do with genealogy.

taf

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A terça-feira, 29 de março de 2022 à(s) 00:53:19 UTC+1, lady luck escreveu:

On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 8:38:01 AM UTC-6, taf wrote:

On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 4:13:04 AM UTC-8, beatrice....@gmail.com wrote:

Leo van de Pas complètement con et nul, bien qu'il aie peut être - raison...Cheddar Man prouve sans doute que les trait négroïde de
cette reine est sans doute directement de la lignée de Cheddar Man !

This is so very wrong. Her perceived African traits were not due to descent from Cheddar Man, obvious from geography alone - any contribution from Cheddar Man would have been truly insignificant - the latest genetic findings show that the English

hunter-gatherers, among whom was Cheddar man, were almost completely supplanted/replaced, and made very little genetic contribution to subsequent Brits, let alone Germans. Germany had their own stone-age hunter-gathereres, who would indeed have had
darker skin (and blue eyes), but this would not have made Charlotte her 'look African'. The one most notable so-called 'Negroid trait' that Cheddar Man had, dark skin, is the one that Charlotte did not possess - it is her facial topography that is
claimed to be 'African' and if you look at the Cheddar Man's skull, it is clear that with this regard the facial reconstruction of Cheddar Man was completely made up, as the determinative bone structures do not survive (and can't yet be extrapolated from
genetics). If it violates the nature of genetics to suggest that these traits could have passed 15 generations without a trace and then suddenly popped up, what does it say about your proposal, that it would pass 450 generations and then pop up in one
woman among the entire European population that would have shared such ancestry?

If Charlotte had African features, it was because an immediate ancestor, probably within three generations, was a sub-Saharan African, in which case one of her parents would have looked more 'African' than she did - that is how genetics really works

for the features we are talking about. Neither parent did, so that only admits two solutions: 1) one of her 'parents' was not really her parent; or 2) that she didn't have African features, but some of her features were exaggerated/distorted to look that
way by one or more artists who painted her (either through incompetence or as a political statement).

Taf : Je ne vois pas ce que les Arabes viennent faire dans ce débat ce ne
sont que les 1er pilleurs, violeurs, voleurs que mes ancêtres ont fait confiance et les ont laissé s'installer sur le continent...Bref, si nous
n'avons pas été spolier, voler, usurper? FALSIFIER... Nous n'aurons pas
besoin à chaque fois d’essayer de rétablir, de trouver nos Ailleux ! On
va donc heu pardon, vos scientifiques qui sont des chercheurs de vérités,
vont continuer à trouver des Cheddar-Man partout... Et vous verrez qui sont sont les 1er et véritable peuple de cette planète !

Unclear what you are trying to say here, but it doesn't appear to have anything to do with genealogy.

taf

No offense, but your reply doesn't say anything. Please, repost with text.

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On Thursday, August 3, 2000 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Leo van de Pas wrote:

This subject has been discussed on gen-medieval more than year ago (I
think). What was established was that a Portuguese King had a "Moorish" mistress. Sadly, for this story, Moors are not black. There is no black branch of descendants of this Portuguese king and his mistress.
I wish that they removed that silly site on the Internet as it only perpetuates this silly assumption. And in this latest revival they have
added more nonsense about a British King going to Africa and falling in love and marry a Black Princess. Yuck!!
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: LibbyH5149 <libby...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 10:24 AM
Subject: Margarita de Castro y Sousa

Possibly the reference to an African Queen of a British monarch referred

to

Duchess Charlotte Sophie of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, the wife of King George

III

of Great Britain, (1738-1820). According to the Website of PBS’s

Frontline,

which I visited some months ago, she was a direct descendant of Margarita

de

Castro y Sousa, a black branch of the Portuguese Royal House. I have been

able

to trace Margarita’s ancestry back to King Alfonso IV, O Osado, of

Portugal

(1291-1357). Does anyone know how to connect her to Margarita from there?

Does

anyone know where I could find more information on this African branch of

the

House of Portugal?

Thank you,

Sincerely, Libby

20 plus years later we can still see how ignorant someone is to say moors in africa were not black despite have a military of black moorish berber soilders. How stupid.

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On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-8, Lord Bob wrote:

On Thursday, August 3, 2000 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Leo van de Pas wrote:

This subject has been discussed on gen-medieval more than year ago (I think). What was established was that a Portuguese King had a "Moorish" mistress. Sadly, for this story, Moors are not black. There is no black branch of descendants of this Portuguese king and his mistress.
I wish that they removed that silly site on the Internet as it only perpetuates this silly assumption. And in this latest revival they have added more nonsense about a British King going to Africa and falling in love
and marry a Black Princess. Yuck!!
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: LibbyH5149 <libby...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 10:24 AM
Subject: Margarita de Castro y Sousa

Possibly the reference to an African Queen of a British monarch referred

to

Duchess Charlotte Sophie of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, the wife of King George

III

of Great Britain, (1738-1820). According to the Website of PBS’s

Frontline,

which I visited some months ago, she was a direct descendant of Margarita

de

Castro y Sousa, a black branch of the Portuguese Royal House. I have been

able

to trace Margarita’s ancestry back to King Alfonso IV, O Osado, of

Portugal

(1291-1357). Does anyone know how to connect her to Margarita from there?

Does

anyone know where I could find more information on this African branch of

the

House of Portugal?

Thank you,

Sincerely, Libby

20 plus years later we can still see how ignorant someone is to say moors in africa were not black despite have a military of black moorish berber soilders. How stupid.

I realize this was probably just a drive-by, but one should not assume that social conventions concerning racial categorizations are consistent across cultures, modern or medieval. Even within the same linguistic diaspora in modern times, what one thinks
of as 'black' is different to your average South African, American, Brit or Australian. As such, calling someone else 'stupid' and 'ignorant' over their personal categorization of race is pointless, because the whole concept of clustering swaths of the
planet's diversity into a handful of arbitrary groups based on geography, melanin and facial characteristics is itself highly dubious, even though culturally engrained.

What is important here is not what you or Leo consider(ed) to be 'black', but whether the Portuguese author who described the woman in question as a 'moor' equated that term with having the facial characteristics that the modern English journalist
considered to be 'black' in a portrait of Queen Charlotte when concocting his absurd and ill-informed racial hypothesis. In medieval Portugal, the term 'moor' was itself ambiguous and variable, but it was often used as a religious designator rather than
an ethnic one. To an Iberian Christian, 'moor' might refer to any Muslim, including not only the Moors of Morroco and their Berber allies, but also Arabs, Muwallids (Muslims of native Iberian deriviation) and convert slaves (whose origin could range from
northern Iberia to sub-Saharan Africa to the Slavs of eastern Europe). It is a fool's errand to try to derive from the medieval Portuguese usage of 'moor' any ethnic characterization, but at least as far as it goes, Leo was accurate in expressing that
the medieval Portuguese 'moor' was not synonymous with having the stereotyped 'black' facial characteristics claimed to be present in Queen Charlotte's portrait.

taf

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