. . . and the ancestry of Frances Howes/Howis/Howls (d. 1631), second wife of Edward FitzRandolph and mother of Edward "the pilgrim."
Re: Frances, wondering if someone called a "gentleman," like Edward Sr., would have married the daughter of another gentleman, or not necessarily?
If Frances's father not in that category, would it likely be a lot harder to trace him?
My bucket list includes an item re: professional help filling in at least one of the few medieval lines identifiable in my family tree.ancestry of Frances Howes/Howis/Howls (d. 1631), second wife of Edward FitzRandolph and mother of Edward "the pilgrim."
Can anyone recommend an experienced and reliable person or company? Would this be monstrously expensive? Does anyone know if Douglas Richardson of royalancestry.net has genealogist associates who do this?
Also wondering about the best way to check and see if related work has already been done/exists in some accessible form. I know almost nothing about medieval genealogy and wouldn't know where to start.
A couple of my lines of interest are connected to the FitzRandolph family of York (Spennithorne) and Nottinghamshire: the ancestry of Cuthbert Langton (d. 1515) and his father Thomas (d. 1498) of Langton Hall near Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Notts.; and the
Re: Frances, wondering if someone called a "gentleman," like Edward Sr., would have married the daughter of another gentleman, or not necessarily? If Frances's father not in that category, would it likely be a lot harder to trace him?
I think I can tell you a bit more about the ancestry of Langton of Kirkby in Ashfield, Notts.
It probably goes John (born about 1380), Richard (born 1406/7), Thomas (born 1430-40), Cuthbert
(born 1463).
There's an inquisition post mortem of John Langton: https://inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/23-449/
John Langton, of Kirkby in Ashfield Notts, writ November 1430, inquisition January 1431
John Langton, of Kirkby in Ashfield, one messuage called ‘Langtonplace’, worth nothing yearly, and six closes of arable, each worth 20d. yearly, held of Elizabeth and Margery, daughters and heirs of Philip Darcy, as 1/100 knight’s fee.
He died on 3 May last. Richard Langton, his son and next heir, is aged 24 and more.
Richard born 1406/7 is in common pleas in 1458:
Langton, Richard, son of Langton, John, of Kyrkeby in Asshefeld, yeoman https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/788
In 1484 Thomas Langton was in Common Pleas:
Langton, Thomas, of Langton Hall, in Kyrkby, Notts, gent https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/890
Thomas Langton died 1489 (IPM)
Cuthbert age 26 years and more is his son and heir. (born about 1463)
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinquis03great/page/522/mode/2up?view=theater
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinquis03great/page/520/mode/2up?view=theater
Thomas born about 1430-40 left the same land to his son as John had left to Richard.
A messuage and 23 bovates of land in Kyrkebe, worth 12 L, held of the Lord Darcy by a hundredth part of a knight's fee.
What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 4:27:14 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:I'm glad to share it here. It was easy to obtain, and I assumed that everyone interested in detailed research of the FitzRandolph line already knew its exact contents. Is there something here that's not already widely known and might help answer a
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:It's not published.
What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
You can publish it in total if there is more, right here.
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:question or solve a longstanding problem? I'm wondering if maybe both Christopher FitzRandolph (d. 1570) and Antony Burgh, co-executors of the parson's will, might have been nephews of the parson's? No relationships are stated herein, but in other
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 4:27:14 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:I'm glad to share it here. It was easy to obtain, and I assumed that everyone interested in detailed research of the FitzRandolph line already knew its exact contents. Is there something here that's not already widely known and might help answer a
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:It's not published.
What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
You can publish it in total if there is more, right here.
Borthwick Institute for Archives
Will of Christopher FitzRandolf of Kirkby in Ashfield (Notts.), proved July 1516Almyghtie God, to his moder Saynte Mary, and to all the sayntes in heven, my body to be buried in myne owne church in the chansell afore the pryncipall ymage [of] Saynte Wilfride, and I bequeth to John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and oyer goodys
Register of Thomas Wolsey (Abp. Reg. 27, folio 142v)
[Marginated] Will of Sir Christofer Fitzrandolf, Vicar of the Church of Kirkby in Ashefeld
In the name of God Amen. The firste daie of the moneth of June the yere of our lorde God ml D xvj, I Christofer Fitzrandolf, parson of the parish church of Kirkby in Ashfeld, with hole mynde, makes my will in this maner. First, I bequeth my saule to
[Marginated] Probate of the said willnamed in the said will, in form of law, sworn; reserving the same power of administration to be granted to Anthony Brugh, executor in the same will named, when he should come to receive it in form of law etc.
On the seventeenth day of the month of July in the year of our lord abovesaid [1516] probate of the said will was granted by virtue of a commission and administration of the goods of the same deceased was granted to Christofer Fitzrandolf, co-executor
© University of York
*****
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:05:37 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:question or solve a longstanding problem? I'm wondering if maybe both Christopher FitzRandolph (d. 1570) and Antony Burgh, co-executors of the parson's will, might have been nephews of the parson's? No relationships are stated herein, but in other
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 4:27:14 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:I'm glad to share it here. It was easy to obtain, and I assumed that everyone interested in detailed research of the FitzRandolph line already knew its exact contents. Is there something here that's not already widely known and might help answer a
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:It's not published.
What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
You can publish it in total if there is more, right here.
Borthwick Institute for Archives
Almyghtie God, to his moder Saynte Mary, and to all the sayntes in heven, my body to be buried in myne owne church in the chansell afore the pryncipall ymage [of] Saynte Wilfride, and I bequeth to John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and oyer goodysWill of Christopher FitzRandolf of Kirkby in Ashfield (Notts.), proved July 1516
Register of Thomas Wolsey (Abp. Reg. 27, folio 142v)
[Marginated] Will of Sir Christofer Fitzrandolf, Vicar of the Church of Kirkby in Ashefeld
In the name of God Amen. The firste daie of the moneth of June the yere of our lorde God ml D xvj, I Christofer Fitzrandolf, parson of the parish church of Kirkby in Ashfeld, with hole mynde, makes my will in this maner. First, I bequeth my saule to
I suggest John's age should read xxiii the 23rd year of his life
It's a bit odd that he would give him 10 cows and then ask for the 10 to be given back
That seems a bit harsh.
And I'm not sure I've ever seen such a bequest
On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:03:39 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:question or solve a longstanding problem? I'm wondering if maybe both Christopher FitzRandolph (d. 1570) and Antony Burgh, co-executors of the parson's will, might have been nephews of the parson's? No relationships are stated herein, but in other
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:05:37 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 4:27:14 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:I'm glad to share it here. It was easy to obtain, and I assumed that everyone interested in detailed research of the FitzRandolph line already knew its exact contents. Is there something here that's not already widely known and might help answer a
On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:It's not published.
What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
You can publish it in total if there is more, right here.
Borthwick Institute for Archives
to Almyghtie God, to his moder Saynte Mary, and to all the sayntes in heven, my body to be buried in myne owne church in the chansell afore the pryncipall ymage [of] Saynte Wilfride, and I bequeth to John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and oyerWill of Christopher FitzRandolf of Kirkby in Ashfield (Notts.), proved July 1516
Register of Thomas Wolsey (Abp. Reg. 27, folio 142v)
[Marginated] Will of Sir Christofer Fitzrandolf, Vicar of the Church of Kirkby in Ashefeld
In the name of God Amen. The firste daie of the moneth of June the yere of our lorde God ml D xvj, I Christofer Fitzrandolf, parson of the parish church of Kirkby in Ashfeld, with hole mynde, makes my will in this maner. First, I bequeth my saule
document has an analogous etymology, with the 'd' there deriving from the medieval letter 'eth' (ð) - also 'th'.I suggest John's age should read xxiii the 23rd year of his lifeYes.
Also in the phrase "plate and oyer goodys" the two 'y's do not represent the same letter. The one in 'goodys' is a modern 'y', but the one in 'oyer' is the medieval letter 'thorn' (þ) - i.e. 'th', so 'other'. The spelling of 'moder' earlier in the
John when the boy reaches the age of 23, or to the church if the boy dies before then ("if deth come to the said John or he come to the said age", where 'or' is a spelling variant of Middle English 'er', modern 'ere', ie. before). There is no 'takingIt's a bit odd that he would give him 10 cows and then ask for the 10 to be given backThat is not how I am reading it. He gives the 10 cows, bull and goods worth 22 marks to John Fitzrandolph, appoints Anthony Burke as John's guardian. Anthony, after serving as keeper of his ward's goods during John's minority, is to turn them over to
That seems a bit harsh.
And I'm not sure I've ever seen such a bequest
taftaf, than interpretation seems very reasonable (I am not an expert in reading the English of that time). With previously posted questions about FitzRandolphs, I have a more general one: Do you know of a book that focuses on the whats and hows of medieval
That is not how I am reading it. He gives the 10 cows, bull and goods worth 22 marks to John Fitzrandolph, appoints Anthony Burke as John's guardian. Anthony, after serving as keeper of his ward's goods during John's minority, is to turn them over toJohn when the boy reaches the age of 23, or to the church if the boy dies before then ("if deth come to the said John or he come to the said age", where 'or' is a spelling variant of Middle English 'er', modern 'ere', ie. before). There is no 'taking
taf
taf, than interpretation seems very reasonable (I am not an expert in reading the English of that time). With previously posted questions about FitzRandolphs, I have a more general one: Do you know of a book that focuses on the whats and hows ofmedieval English genealogy, or a medieval "encyclopedia" for beginners? And one that is affordable? Would help me if I could find one. Any recommendations welcome.
The ancestry of the New World immigrant, Edward Fitz Randolph (died c.1684/5), of Piscataway, New Jersey, can be traced back to his great-grandfather, Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570). For your interest, I've copied below my current file accountof Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570).
It is thought that Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570)i s descended from the earlier Fitz Randolph family, of Spennithorne, Yorkshire. However, to my knowledge, the exact link to the Spennithorne family has eluded discovery for many decades. Ipersonally think the connection is highly likely, but lacking confirmation, this remains a theory at best.
Douglas Richardson, Historian and GenealogistLangton, Gent., of Langton Hall in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. She was born about 1499. They had five sons, Thomas, Gent. [of Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire], John, James, Edward, and Christopher, and three daughters, Isabel, Margaret, and
+ + + + + + + + + +
12. CHRISTOPHER FITZ RANDOLPH, Gent., of Codnor (in Heanor), Derbyshire, and, in right of his wife, of Langton Hall (in Kirkby-in-Ashfield), Nottinghamshire. He married by contract dated 1514 JOAN (or JANE) LANGTON, daughter and co-heiress of Cuthbert
References:and Indexes 38) (1912): 79; 7 (PRO Lists and Indexes 50) (1926): 43; 8 (PRO Lists and Indexes 51) (1929): 82; 9 (PRO Lists and Indexes 54) (1933): 48, 333. Desc. Cat. Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 493. NEHGR 97 (1943): 295–298; 99 (1945): 335–336. Chancery
Thoroton & Throsby, Thoroton’s Hist. of Nottinghamshire 2 (1790): 296. Mundy et al., Vis. of Nottingham 1569 & 1614 (H.S.P. 4) (1871): 187 (1569 Vis.) (Fitz Randolph arms: Argent, a chief indented azure). List of Early Chancery Procs. 5 (PRO Lists
On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:18:37 PM UTC-4, Douglas Richardson wrote:of Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570).
The ancestry of the New World immigrant, Edward Fitz Randolph (died c.1684/5), of Piscataway, New Jersey, can be traced back to his great-grandfather, Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570). For your interest, I've copied below my current file account
personally think the connection is highly likely, but lacking confirmation, this remains a theory at best.It is thought that Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570)i s descended from the earlier Fitz Randolph family, of Spennithorne, Yorkshire. However, to my knowledge, the exact link to the Spennithorne family has eluded discovery for many decades. I
Cuthbert Langton, Gent., of Langton Hall in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. She was born about 1499. They had five sons, Thomas, Gent. [of Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire], John, James, Edward, and Christopher, and three daughters, Isabel,Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
+ + + + + + + + + +
12. CHRISTOPHER FITZ RANDOLPH, Gent., of Codnor (in Heanor), Derbyshire, and, in right of his wife, of Langton Hall (in Kirkby-in-Ashfield), Nottinghamshire. He married by contract dated 1514 JOAN (or JANE) LANGTON, daughter and co-heiress of
and Indexes 38) (1912): 79; 7 (PRO Lists and Indexes 50) (1926): 43; 8 (PRO Lists and Indexes 51) (1929): 82; 9 (PRO Lists and Indexes 54) (1933): 48, 333. Desc. Cat. Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 493. NEHGR 97 (1943): 295–298; 99 (1945): 335–336. ChanceryReferences:
Thoroton & Throsby, Thoroton’s Hist. of Nottinghamshire 2 (1790): 296. Mundy et al., Vis. of Nottingham 1569 & 1614 (H.S.P. 4) (1871): 187 (1569 Vis.) (Fitz Randolph arms: Argent, a chief indented azure). List of Early Chancery Procs. 5 (PRO Lists
Thank you so much, Douglas. This is very helpful!Douglas, I wonder if any researcher has tried to connect the Antony Burgh cited in Christopher "parson's" 1516 will -- the parson, presumed uncle of Christopher who m. Joan Langton -- to John Burgh of East Hawkswell, the husband of Margaret FiztRandolph,
Christopher Randolph occurs twice in Common Pleas in 1548, once as Christopher FitzrandellVance, thank you. Can't wait to look at these. I'm feeling stumped about whether to try to further research this Christopher, his uncle or cousin, the parson, etc..
and once as Christopher Fytherandulphe.
Christopher Fitzrandell, of Kirkeby in Ashefeld, gentleman http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/E6/CP40no1135/bCP40no1135dorses/IMG_1819.htm
Christopher Fytherandulphe, of Westwode, Kirkby in Ashfield, gentleman http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/E6/CP40no1135/bCP40no1135dorses/IMG_1607.htm
If renowned professionals John Insley Coddington and Douglas Richardson and associated folks haven't proven a connection to a father of Chris, does that mean it's probably not doable...that records don't exist that might make a stronger case? How wouldI know what has already been done and looked at, if there is no comprehensive, foot-noted explanation of the evidence so far? How would I know if records not available to those researchers are now more accessible? How would I know how exhaustive the
On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:53:28 AM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:would I know what has already been done and looked at, if there is no comprehensive, foot-noted explanation of the evidence so far? How would I know if records not available to those researchers are now more accessible? How would I know how exhaustive
If renowned professionals John Insley Coddington and Douglas Richardson and associated folks haven't proven a connection to a father of Chris, does that mean it's probably not doable...that records don't exist that might make a stronger case? How
Welcome to medieval genealogy?!? For that matter, all scholarship is plagued by this - one can only publish positive results, not thorough research finding nothing useful. As a result, a lot of time is wasted reinventing the wheel (or rather,reinventing the failure to produce a wheel).
That said, two things can be safely assumed. First, that there are more records acessible now than when any past researcher did their study, even if relatively recently, and Second, that no researcher actually looked at every single relevant recordavailable in their time, let alone available now.
The take-home is that you can never really know what has been consulted by those in the past, whether there will be a better answer in the records available now, though certainly there is a greater chance of finding something novel in addressing aquestion that has not been as thoroughly studied. However, it would nonetheless not be a complete waste of time to look into it anyhow - even it one finds nothing additional, that is how one learns about the process and sources of medieval genealogy, and
taftaf, That's the answer I wanted LOL! You hit the nail on the head...It would be an adventure to embark on this and enjoy it no matter the outcome. It would demand, though, something I've been horrible at in past...Carefully documenting each source, and
Do researchers here ever ask for help reading documents written in Latin?
Also, is it common for folks trying to solve this kind of genealogical problem to research "out..." to extend study quite a ways into the lives and paper trails of numerous other families (for example, people named as witnesses in the subject's presumedrelatives' wills)?
On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 8:17:00 AM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:presumed relatives' wills)?
Do researchers here ever ask for help reading documents written in Latin?Yes. Often they receive that help, though not always in the context of the group.
Also, is it common for folks trying to solve this kind of genealogical problem to research "out..." to extend study quite a ways into the lives and paper trails of numerous other families (for example, people named as witnesses in the subject's
I guess it depends on how you define 'quite a ways'. I have certainly followed up people named vaguely as 'cousins' in wills to see if I could reconstruct enough of their parentage to determine potential avenues for the relationship (and hencepotentially lead to ancestry of the person I was originally researching), but then, I once spent a good bit of effort tracking down the sourcing for the fact that an ancestor's second cousin's adopted daughter's birth father's half-grandniece's stepson
The farther away you get, the less likely you are to find something useful (and the harder it is to even identify research targets), so at some point the minimal chance of success becomes so minimal that one's time is better spent shifting to adifferent genealogical brick wall rather than ineffectually repeatedly banging your head against the same one from farther and farther away. I have had the best success on truly problem questions, not by such grinding away, but by stepping away and
tafI have also spent time far afield, sometimes to ultimate positive effect and others to futility-but-fun. Good advice. For this project, I've made a list of questions I'd like to try to answer, and if this becomes just too tough, I'll take a break and
On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 6:31:03 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:presumed relatives' wills)?
On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 8:17:00 AM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
Do researchers here ever ask for help reading documents written in Latin?Yes. Often they receive that help, though not always in the context of the group.
Also, is it common for folks trying to solve this kind of genealogical problem to research "out..." to extend study quite a ways into the lives and paper trails of numerous other families (for example, people named as witnesses in the subject's
potentially lead to ancestry of the person I was originally researching), but then, I once spent a good bit of effort tracking down the sourcing for the fact that an ancestor's second cousin's adopted daughter's birth father's half-grandniece's stepsonI guess it depends on how you define 'quite a ways'. I have certainly followed up people named vaguely as 'cousins' in wills to see if I could reconstruct enough of their parentage to determine potential avenues for the relationship (and hence
different genealogical brick wall rather than ineffectually repeatedly banging your head against the same one from farther and farther away. I have had the best success on truly problem questions, not by such grinding away, but by stepping away andThe farther away you get, the less likely you are to find something useful (and the harder it is to even identify research targets), so at some point the minimal chance of success becomes so minimal that one's time is better spent shifting to a
come back later.tafI have also spent time far afield, sometimes to ultimate positive effect and others to futility-but-fun. Good advice. For this project, I've made a list of questions I'd like to try to answer, and if this becomes just too tough, I'll take a break and
Today, I'm having trouble understanding a reference in the 1540 will of Sir Godfrey Foljambe of Walton and Aldwarke (Derby)...the reference mentions my ancestor Christopher FitzRandolph and his wife and their son; the son married Sir G's daughter,Katherine. Will here, on FamilySearch.org, from p. 178 of "North Country Wills..."
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/617257/?offset=0#page=185&viewer=picture&o=&n=0&q=heire and maryed to Katherin Foliambe my doughter...or els to suche other gentilwoman as I shulde assigne."
The excerpt reads:
"...Also I will that my son James have...the order, rule, and governance and mariage of Cristofer Fitzrandolf and Jane his wyfe , for the mariage of Thomas Fitzrandolff their son and heire, or any other of their sones whiche shall fortune to be ther
Does this mean that since the testator may not be around, he is giving to his son and heir the right to oversee the execution of his sister's already-made marriage contract, which has not yet been fulfilled? That if Thomas dies, another FitzRandolphson could take his place, and that if Katherine dies, James could substitute someone else (perhaps a sister of Katherine's, or a cousin, etc.)?
Sir Godfrey looks to have been a person of some wealth and had served Kings Henry VII and VIII as "esquire of the body," and fought with Henry VIII in France.
Were marriage contracts like this one recorded by/with an ecclesiastical court? If I could find it, it might give me some useful info about ancestor Christopher FitzRandolph, his social standing, details about family, etc.?
This is a very odd willwjhons, when I first read the will, I realized I'd never seen this kind of wording. Went over it several times and came to same conclusion you did. Then, did some searching and found a book that cites this Sir Godfrey as the father of illegitimate
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/617257/?offset=0#page=185&viewer=picture&o=search&n=0&q=Foljambe
I note in particular this strange phrasing "Bennet my daughter begotten of Joane Mansfield"
This strikes very well an idea that this particular Bennet was illegitimate and her next sister Katherine mentioned here, as well "begotten as abovesaid" (i.e also of Joane Mansfield)
So I would venture that we are dealing with two distinct Benedictas and Katherines
One pair legitimate (and much older) off Catherine Leeke
The other illegitimate off this Joan Mansfield
Godfrey did outlive his wife by 12 years
On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 11:44:24 AM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:children (but I couldn't access any other detail):
This is a very odd will
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/617257/?offset=0#page=185&viewer=picture&o=search&n=0&q=Foljambe
I note in particular this strange phrasing "Bennet my daughter begotten of Joane Mansfield"
This strikes very well an idea that this particular Bennet was illegitimate
and her next sister Katherine mentioned here, as well "begotten as abovesaid" (i.e also of Joane Mansfield)
So I would venture that we are dealing with two distinct Benedictas and Katherines
One pair legitimate (and much older) off Catherine Leeke
The other illegitimate off this Joan Mansfield
Godfrey did outlive his wife by 12 yearswjhons, when I first read the will, I realized I'd never seen this kind of wording. Went over it several times and came to same conclusion you did. Then, did some searching and found a book that cites this Sir Godfrey as the father of illegitimate
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335914165_The_gentleman's_mistress_Illegitimate_relationships_and_children_1450-1640
Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will, or not necessarily? Maybe this mention appeared because the younger Katherine and Bennet were born after Sir Godfrey's wife's death?
I think the contract was kept, as my Thomas FitzRandolph mentions his deceased wife Katherine in his will, and this union appears in the Fitz-Randolfe pedigree in Visitation of Nottingham, 1569 and 1614.
Was Sir Godfrey's other Katherine married to a Neville? Was Joan Mansfield likely a gentlewoman, or not necessarily?
"Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will,"momentary romp in a haystack, and never endeared to the father, then it was unlikely to get much if anything. That's life.
Look at it this way. An illegitimate child was not going to get any automatic inheritance. If the testator was emotionally close, then the child/adult would be provided for during the testator's life or by will. If the child was the result of a
Unusual, no.
Chris
On Monday, 11 April 2022 at 11:44:36 UTC+1, Chris Dickinson wrote:momentary romp in a haystack, and never endeared to the father, then it was unlikely to get much if anything. That's life.
"Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will,"
Look at it this way. An illegitimate child was not going to get any automatic inheritance. If the testator was emotionally close, then the child/adult would be provided for during the testator's life or by will. If the child was the result of a
Unusual, no.
Chris" never endeared to the father"
I realise that I've been sexist here!and I imagine as a wealthy and powerful widow she was comforted. Her illegitimate daughter Hannah Dixon al Bowman was provided for in her will, and eventually married reasonably well.
I can give an example of a woman protecting her illegitimate child, though it's at the very end of the Medieval-Early Modern period that you specify. This was in the 1681 will of Elizabeth Bowman of Lingcroft in Lamplugh. Her husband had died in 1665,
Going back three generations in her husband's family, Henry Bowman (died 1617) had married Dorothy Woodhall, niece of Edmund Grindal, future Archibishop of Canterbury.
Henry and Dorothy had a son William born before marriage in 1566, so illegitimate. Not only is that clear from BMD records, but Henry wrote in his will that:
"I give unto my son William that which is in his hand in full consideration of his child part & portion which they & any of them shall claim & challenge after my death"
William, as well as having other legacies, was apparitor of the local ecclesiastical court.
ChrisChris, thank you, as usual. Great insight from your example. I guess Sir Godfrey Foljambe was being quite magnanimous -- and I have him to thank for knowing what I know. I'm gaining more appreciation for the challenges that women faced in those times.
On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 8:53:51 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:momentary romp in a haystack, and never endeared to the father, then it was unlikely to get much if anything. That's life.
On Monday, 11 April 2022 at 11:44:36 UTC+1, Chris Dickinson wrote:
"Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will,"
Look at it this way. An illegitimate child was not going to get any automatic inheritance. If the testator was emotionally close, then the child/adult would be provided for during the testator's life or by will. If the child was the result of a
Unusual, no.
Chris" never endeared to the father"
and I imagine as a wealthy and powerful widow she was comforted. Her illegitimate daughter Hannah Dixon al Bowman was provided for in her will, and eventually married reasonably well.I realise that I've been sexist here!
I can give an example of a woman protecting her illegitimate child, though it's at the very end of the Medieval-Early Modern period that you specify. This was in the 1681 will of Elizabeth Bowman of Lingcroft in Lamplugh. Her husband had died in 1665,
Going back three generations in her husband's family, Henry Bowman (died 1617) had married Dorothy Woodhall, niece of Edmund Grindal, future Archibishop of Canterbury.
Henry and Dorothy had a son William born before marriage in 1566, so illegitimate. Not only is that clear from BMD records, but Henry wrote in his will that:
"I give unto my son William that which is in his hand in full consideration of his child part & portion which they & any of them shall claim & challenge after my death"
William, as well as having other legacies, was apparitor of the local ecclesiastical court.
New hashtag...#MedievalLadiesUnite...#MeTooEarlyModern...ChrisChris, thank you, as usual. Great insight from your example. I guess Sir Godfrey Foljambe was being quite magnanimous -- and I have him to thank for knowing what I know. I'm gaining more appreciation for the challenges that women faced in those times.
I'd love to find the marriage contract for Thomas FitzRandolph and Katherine Foljambe, if one exists. Would a marriage contract have been a record of an ecclesiastical court? Were marriage contracts unlike records such as parish registers and probate...a different animal, which might or might not have been kept, and there's no telling where it might be, if it exists at all?
On Monday, 11 April 2022 at 11:44:36 UTC+1, Chris Dickinson wrote:momentary romp in a haystack, and never endeared to the father, then it was unlikely to get much if anything. That's life.
"Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will,"
Look at it this way. An illegitimate child was not going to get any automatic inheritance. If the testator was emotionally close, then the child/adult would be provided for during the testator's life or by will. If the child was the result of a
Unusual, no.
Chris" never endeared to the father"
I realise that I've been sexist here!and I imagine as a wealthy and powerful widow she was comforted. Her illegitimate daughter Hannah Dixon al Bowman was provided for in her will, and eventually married reasonably well.
I can give an example of a woman protecting her illegitimate child, though it's at the very end of the Medieval-Early Modern period that you specify. This was in the 1681 will of Elizabeth Bowman of Lingcroft in Lamplugh. Her husband had died in 1665,
Going back three generations in her husband's family, Henry Bowman (died 1617) had married Dorothy Woodhall, niece of Edmund Grindal, future Archibishop of Canterbury.
Henry and Dorothy had a son William born before marriage in 1566, so illegitimate. Not only is that clear from BMD records, but Henry wrote in his will that:
"I give unto my son William that which is in his hand in full consideration of his child part & portion which they & any of them shall claim & challenge after my death"
William, as well as having other legacies, was apparitor of the local ecclesiastical court.
ChrisMaybe the father would also provide for his illegitimate child if he retained fond memories of the mother but for some reason hadn't married her? I'm thinking of Cardinal Henry Beaufort for whom marriage was impossible if he had already taken holy
On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 8:53:51 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:momentary romp in a haystack, and never endeared to the father, then it was unlikely to get much if anything. That's life.
On Monday, 11 April 2022 at 11:44:36 UTC+1, Chris Dickinson wrote:
"Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will,"
Look at it this way. An illegitimate child was not going to get any automatic inheritance. If the testator was emotionally close, then the child/adult would be provided for during the testator's life or by will. If the child was the result of a
Unusual, no.
Chris" never endeared to the father"
and I imagine as a wealthy and powerful widow she was comforted. Her illegitimate daughter Hannah Dixon al Bowman was provided for in her will, and eventually married reasonably well.I realise that I've been sexist here!
I can give an example of a woman protecting her illegitimate child, though it's at the very end of the Medieval-Early Modern period that you specify. This was in the 1681 will of Elizabeth Bowman of Lingcroft in Lamplugh. Her husband had died in 1665,
Going back three generations in her husband's family, Henry Bowman (died 1617) had married Dorothy Woodhall, niece of Edmund Grindal, future Archibishop of Canterbury.
Henry and Dorothy had a son William born before marriage in 1566, so illegitimate. Not only is that clear from BMD records, but Henry wrote in his will that:
"I give unto my son William that which is in his hand in full consideration of his child part & portion which they & any of them shall claim & challenge after my death"
William, as well as having other legacies, was apparitor of the local ecclesiastical court.
orders or planned to do so and advance in the Church.ChrisMaybe the father would also provide for his illegitimate child if he retained fond memories of the mother but for some reason hadn't married her? I'm thinking of Cardinal Henry Beaufort for whom marriage was impossible if he had already taken holy
On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 2:12:54 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:momentary romp in a haystack, and never endeared to the father, then it was unlikely to get much if anything. That's life.
On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 8:53:51 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
On Monday, 11 April 2022 at 11:44:36 UTC+1, Chris Dickinson wrote:
"Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will,"
Look at it this way. An illegitimate child was not going to get any automatic inheritance. If the testator was emotionally close, then the child/adult would be provided for during the testator's life or by will. If the child was the result of a
Unusual, no.
Chris" never endeared to the father"
1665, and I imagine as a wealthy and powerful widow she was comforted. Her illegitimate daughter Hannah Dixon al Bowman was provided for in her will, and eventually married reasonably well.I realise that I've been sexist here!
I can give an example of a woman protecting her illegitimate child, though it's at the very end of the Medieval-Early Modern period that you specify. This was in the 1681 will of Elizabeth Bowman of Lingcroft in Lamplugh. Her husband had died in
Going back three generations in her husband's family, Henry Bowman (died 1617) had married Dorothy Woodhall, niece of Edmund Grindal, future Archibishop of Canterbury.
Henry and Dorothy had a son William born before marriage in 1566, so illegitimate. Not only is that clear from BMD records, but Henry wrote in his will that:
"I give unto my son William that which is in his hand in full consideration of his child part & portion which they & any of them shall claim & challenge after my death"
William, as well as having other legacies, was apparitor of the local ecclesiastical court.
orders or planned to do so and advance in the Church.ChrisMaybe the father would also provide for his illegitimate child if he retained fond memories of the mother but for some reason hadn't married her? I'm thinking of Cardinal Henry Beaufort for whom marriage was impossible if he had already taken holy
Cindy, that seems like a good possibility to me.son, her half-brother, James. Maybe, as Chris said above, he had provided well for her during his life.
Now I'm remembering...I don't think Sir Godfrey actually left anything to Katherine, his illegitimate daughter who married Thomas FitzRandolph, in the will; I think she was mentioned only because he put her marriage arrangements in the charge of his
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