On Monday, 19 August 2002 at 11:03:54 UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote:

"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<C%T79.11096$I6.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

Sorry for yet another post, but I thought it was necessary to the discussion. One of the pleas I have spells the name Sainche, so I would suggest that Tim's choice of Sanchia is as good as any and should not be concluded or corrected as wrong. As we know the names were not standardized nor their spellings or why would see so many variants for the same persons be seen in various documents?

HS

Dear HS ~
Sanche is the English form of the Spanish name, Sanchia. The women
under discussion in this thread were English, not Spanish. They lived
and died in England. The name Sanchia sounds "romantic." However,
Sanche appears to be the correct form to use for these ladies, not
Sanchia. Ditto Mary, for Maria, Isabel for Isabella, Blanche for
Blanca, Joan for Juana, etc.
DR

Dear All,
Under Ewell, Surrey Epsom and Ewell History Explorer https://eehe.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/ManningBray-Ewell.pdf
"The Chapel here .spoken of was erected by Richard Bray, in 21 Hen. VIII. Aa 1529, as
appears from an inscription formerly to be seen on the Tomb under which he was buried on the
North side of it p. The Tomb is still remaining; and under it, when part of tbe Church fell
in, about the middle of the 17th century, were found the remains of two bodies', which were
undoubtedly those of the said Richard, who died 24 Aug. 1559, and Joan or Jane his wife,
daughter of Nicholas Sanders of this place.
[* Aubrey says there was a grave stone, plundered of its brass, only there remained 3 boys;
and on a plate 3 hand-saws empaling a chevron Charged with Erm. between :3 bulls heads cabossed,
This must have been meant for Richard Bray above named, and Jane daughter of Nicholas
Sanders. In Vincent's visitation of Surrey at the Heralds College, p. 24-7, this match is mentioned;
and Richard is said to have died in 1559. What Aubrey calls hand-saws were probably the
upper part of the hemp-breaker borne as a Crest by the Brays of Shere. The arms of Sanders
are nearly as he describes them, being Sa. a chevron Erm charged with a rose Gu. between
3 bulls heads cabossed Ar.
A MS. collection of church notes by Mr. Steele in Mr. Gough's possession, mentions the fol-
lowing as being on a little stone, •• Hic jace~ Henrici Sander vii filior' Henna Sander." • ]

"charged with a rose Gu. between 3 bulls heads cabossed Ar. clearly references the Iwardby Neville marriage. Note the rose which is the Abergavenny charge from Edward Neville for the 7th son of Ralph Neville and Joan Beaufort. The bulls heads for the
crest of Nevill from the Bulmer inheritance of Brancepeth. On the subject of pedantics the Nevills of Abergavenny do not have a final 'e' to the name and are called 'Abergenny' formerly 'Bergenny' but not spelt as such. Don Macer-Wright

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, 8 March 2022 at 08:41:41 UTC, Donny Wright wrote:

On Monday, 19 August 2002 at 11:03:54 UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote:

"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<C%T79.11096$I6.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

Sorry for yet another post, but I thought it was necessary to the discussion. One of the pleas I have spells the name Sainche, so I would suggest that Tim's choice of Sanchia is as good as any and should not be concluded or corrected as wrong. As we know the names were not standardized
nor their spellings or why would see so many variants for the same persons
be seen in various documents?

HS

Dear HS ~
Sanche is the English form of the Spanish name, Sanchia. The women
under discussion in this thread were English, not Spanish. They lived
and died in England. The name Sanchia sounds "romantic." However,
Sanche appears to be the correct form to use for these ladies, not Sanchia. Ditto Mary, for Maria, Isabel for Isabella, Blanche for
Blanca, Joan for Juana, etc.
DR

Dear All,
Under Ewell, Surrey Epsom and Ewell History Explorer https://eehe.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/ManningBray-Ewell.pdf
"The Chapel here .spoken of was erected by Richard Bray, in 21 Hen. VIII. Aa 1529, as
appears from an inscription formerly to be seen on the Tomb under which he was buried on the
North side of it p. The Tomb is still remaining; and under it, when part of tbe Church fell
in, about the middle of the 17th century, were found the remains of two bodies', which were
undoubtedly those of the said Richard, who died 24 Aug. 1559, and Joan or Jane his wife,
daughter of Nicholas Sanders of this place.
[* Aubrey says there was a grave stone, plundered of its brass, only there remained 3 boys;
and on a plate 3 hand-saws empaling a chevron Charged with Erm. between :3 bulls heads cabossed,
This must have been meant for Richard Bray above named, and Jane daughter of Nicholas
Sanders. In Vincent's visitation of Surrey at the Heralds College, p. 24-7, this match is mentioned;
and Richard is said to have died in 1559. What Aubrey calls hand-saws were probably the
upper part of the hemp-breaker borne as a Crest by the Brays of Shere. The arms of Sanders
are nearly as he describes them, being Sa. a chevron Erm charged with a rose Gu. between
3 bulls heads cabossed Ar.
A MS. collection of church notes by Mr. Steele in Mr. Gough's possession, mentions the fol-
lowing as being on a little stone, •• Hic jace~ Henrici Sander vii filior' Henna Sander." • ]

"charged with a rose Gu. between 3 bulls heads cabossed Ar. clearly references the Iwardby Neville marriage. Note the rose which is the Abergavenny charge from Edward Neville for the 7th son of Ralph Neville and Joan Beaufort. The bulls heads for the

crest of Nevill from the Bulmer inheritance of Brancepeth. On the subject of pedantics the Nevills of Abergavenny do not have a final 'e' to the name and are called 'Abergenny' formerly 'Bergenny' but not spelt as such. Don Macer-Wright

I was mistaken here the arms with 3 bulls heads cabossed Ar. are those of Saunders from before the Iwardby/Nevill marriage. The Red rose however in the Iwardby arms may be from the Abergavenny rose 'difference' for Edward Nevill.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, 18 December 2022 at 19:58:13 UTC, Donny Wright wrote:

On Tuesday, 8 March 2022 at 08:41:41 UTC, Donny Wright wrote:

On Monday, 19 August 2002 at 11:03:54 UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote:

"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<C%T79.11096$I6.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

Sorry for yet another post, but I thought it was necessary to the discussion. One of the pleas I have spells the name Sainche, so I would
suggest that Tim's choice of Sanchia is as good as any and should not be
concluded or corrected as wrong. As we know the names were not standardized
nor their spellings or why would see so many variants for the same persons
be seen in various documents?

HS

Dear HS ~
Sanche is the English form of the Spanish name, Sanchia. The women
under discussion in this thread were English, not Spanish. They lived and died in England. The name Sanchia sounds "romantic." However,
Sanche appears to be the correct form to use for these ladies, not Sanchia. Ditto Mary, for Maria, Isabel for Isabella, Blanche for
Blanca, Joan for Juana, etc.
DR

Dear All,
Under Ewell, Surrey Epsom and Ewell History Explorer https://eehe.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/ManningBray-Ewell.pdf
"The Chapel here .spoken of was erected by Richard Bray, in 21 Hen. VIII. Aa 1529, as
appears from an inscription formerly to be seen on the Tomb under which he was buried on the
North side of it p. The Tomb is still remaining; and under it, when part of tbe Church fell
in, about the middle of the 17th century, were found the remains of two bodies', which were
undoubtedly those of the said Richard, who died 24 Aug. 1559, and Joan or Jane his wife,
daughter of Nicholas Sanders of this place.
[* Aubrey says there was a grave stone, plundered of its brass, only there remained 3 boys;
and on a plate 3 hand-saws empaling a chevron Charged with Erm. between :3 bulls heads cabossed,
This must have been meant for Richard Bray above named, and Jane daughter of Nicholas
Sanders. In Vincent's visitation of Surrey at the Heralds College, p. 24-7, this match is mentioned;
and Richard is said to have died in 1559. What Aubrey calls hand-saws were probably the
upper part of the hemp-breaker borne as a Crest by the Brays of Shere. The arms of Sanders
are nearly as he describes them, being Sa. a chevron Erm charged with a rose Gu. between
3 bulls heads cabossed Ar.
A MS. collection of church notes by Mr. Steele in Mr. Gough's possession, mentions the fol-
lowing as being on a little stone, •• Hic jace~ Henrici Sander vii filior' Henna Sander." • ]

"charged with a rose Gu. between 3 bulls heads cabossed Ar. clearly references the Iwardby Neville marriage. Note the rose which is the Abergavenny charge from Edward Neville for the 7th son of Ralph Neville and Joan Beaufort. The bulls heads for the

crest of Nevill from the Bulmer inheritance of Brancepeth. On the subject of pedantics the Nevills of Abergavenny do not have a final 'e' to the name and are called 'Abergenny' formerly 'Bergenny' but not spelt as such. Don Macer-Wright

I was mistaken here the arms with 3 bulls heads cabossed Ar. are those of Saunders from before the Iwardby/Nevill marriage. The Red rose however in the Iwardby arms may be from the Abergavenny rose 'difference' for Edward Nevill.

Should read The Red rose however in the "Saunders"
arms

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)