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  • Alice de Ufford v. John Offord

    From Wibs@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 4 01:28:38 2022
    In the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1416-1422, p. 309 it is stated:

    Grant for life to the king's servitor John Offord of the office of the privy seal, alias John Pabenham son of Laurence Pabenham, 'chivaler,' deceased, of 6d. daily from the issues of the counties of Cambridge and Huntingdon, as Henry de Clare, yeoman,
    had while he lived of the king's confirmation. By p.s.

    So it seems clear enough, that John Offord was the illegitimate son of Sir Laurence Pabenham, but I have found a recent paper by Professor Sebastian Sobecki, "The Handwriting of Fifteenth-Century Privy Seal
    and Council Clerks", in which he says on page 259, "He may not have been the son of Laurence Pabenham of Offord in Bedfordshire as was proposed by Otway-Ruthven, The King’s Secretary, 181, but instead was probably the illegitimate grandson of Alice de
    Ufford, as argued by Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, 5 vols (Salt Lake City, UT, 2013), 4. 29. "

    Living in Spain I do not have access to this Vol. 4 of Royal Ancestry. Can anyone with access provide the argument provided by Richardson?

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  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to Wibs on Fri Mar 4 04:17:50 2022
    On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 4:28:40 AM UTC-5, Wibs wrote:
    In the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1416-1422, p. 309 it is stated:

    Grant for life to the king's servitor John Offord of the office of the privy seal, alias John Pabenham son of Laurence Pabenham, 'chivaler,' deceased, of 6d. daily from the issues of the counties of Cambridge and Huntingdon, as Henry de Clare, yeoman,
    had while he lived of the king's confirmation. By p.s.

    So it seems clear enough, that John Offord was the illegitimate son of Sir Laurence Pabenham, but I have found a recent paper by Professor Sebastian Sobecki, "The Handwriting of Fifteenth-Century Privy Seal
    and Council Clerks", in which he says on page 259, "He may not have been the son of Laurence Pabenham of Offord in Bedfordshire as was proposed by Otway-Ruthven, The King’s Secretary, 181, but instead was probably the illegitimate grandson of Alice
    de Ufford, as argued by Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, 5 vols (Salt Lake City, UT, 2013), 4. 29. "

    Living in Spain I do not have access to this Vol. 4 of Royal Ancestry. Can anyone with access provide the argument provided by Richardson?

    Wibs,
    The reference should be Vol 2 Royal Ancestry p.507. Send me an email joecook over AT gmail and I will send a scan.
    --Joe C

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  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to joseph cook on Fri Mar 4 04:27:11 2022
    On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 7:17:52 AM UTC-5, joseph cook wrote:
    On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 4:28:40 AM UTC-5, Wibs wrote:
    In the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1416-1422, p. 309 it is stated:

    Grant for life to the king's servitor John Offord of the office of the privy seal, alias John Pabenham son of Laurence Pabenham, 'chivaler,' deceased, of 6d. daily from the issues of the counties of Cambridge and Huntingdon, as Henry de Clare, yeoman,
    had while he lived of the king's confirmation. By p.s.

    So it seems clear enough, that John Offord was the illegitimate son of Sir Laurence Pabenham, but I have found a recent paper by Professor Sebastian Sobecki, "The Handwriting of Fifteenth-Century Privy Seal
    and Council Clerks", in which he says on page 259, "He may not have been the son of Laurence Pabenham of Offord in Bedfordshire as was proposed by Otway-Ruthven, The King’s Secretary, 181, but instead was probably the illegitimate grandson of Alice
    de Ufford, as argued by Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, 5 vols (Salt Lake City, UT, 2013), 4. 29. "

    Living in Spain I do not have access to this Vol. 4 of Royal Ancestry. Can anyone with access provide the argument provided by Richardson?
    Wibs,
    The reference should be Vol 2 Royal Ancestry p.507. Send me an email joecook over AT gmail and I will send a scan.

    But abbreviated Douglas Richardson says on page 507.
    "Elizabeth D'Engaine...married before 1372..Laurence Pabenham...son and heir of Thomas Pabenham...by Alice, sister of [Master] John and Andrew de Offard. [Lawrence] was born about 1334...They had one son Lawrence, and one daughter Katherine. ...[
    Lawrence] married 2nd before 1390 Joan Daubeney, daughter of Giles Daubeney....they [together] had one son John, and one daughter Eleanor....By an unknown mistress, [Lawrence] had one illegitamate son, John Offard (alias John Pabenham). SIR LAURENCE
    PABENHAM died 10 June 1309....His widow Joan married (2nd) John Waleys. She died in 1414"

    No other information there other than a list of references, but nothing specifically to highlight John Offard that I see.

    --Joe C

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  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 4 04:34:53 2022

    Living in Spain I do not have access to this Vol. 4 of Royal Ancestry. Can anyone with access provide the argument provided by Richardson?
    Wibs,
    The reference should be Vol 2 Royal Ancestry p.507. Send me an email joecook over AT gmail and I will send a scan.
    But abbreviated Douglas Richardson says on page 507.
    "Elizabeth D'Engaine...married before 1372..Laurence Pabenham...son and heir of Thomas Pabenham...by Alice, sister of [Master] John and Andrew de Offard. [Lawrence] was born about 1334...They had one son Lawrence, and one daughter Katherine. ...[
    Lawrence] married 2nd before 1390 Joan Daubeney, daughter of Giles Daubeney....they [together] had one son John, and one daughter Eleanor....By an unknown mistress, [Lawrence] had one illegitamate son, John Offard (alias John Pabenham). SIR LAURENCE
    PABENHAM died 10 June 1309....His widow Joan married (2nd) John Waleys. She died in 1414"

    No other information there other than a list of references, but nothing specifically to highlight John Offard that I see.

    In other words, both sources seem to be saying the same thing. Vol 4 page 29 just states "Joan Daubeney married (1st) Laurence Pabenham..." with the note to see Vol II I quoted above for more info.

    --Joe C

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