On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 5:38:20 PM UTC-5, J. Sardina wrote:
On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:25:09 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:51:54 AM UTC-8, J. Sardina wrote:
But how did he get a Welsh name? Was his mother half Welsh?
The name Griffin/Griffith had been bouncing around the Shropshire gentry for some time, since at least the mid-13th century in Warenne of Ightfield, so it cannot be taken as an indication of a recent marriage to a Welsh woman.
Burke makes Alice daughter of the first baron of Wemme, which does not look correct in terms of chronology.
The last Lord Boteler of Wem died in 1369, leaving a sole daughter and heiress who would have been Nicholas' approximate contemporary but is known not to have been his wife. This pretty much makes it impossible for Burke to be correct. There are thus
three possibilities, all of which are seen as common errors in Burke and the traditional pedigrees it drew from. 1) There was an authentic Boteler of Wem descent, but the pedigree has stripped out intervening families through which the descent passed. 2)
There was an authentic Boteler marriage, to some other Boteler family (or at least some other branch of this Boteler family, but with an occupationally-based surname it can't be assumed they belonged to the same family), and the pedigree maker has
replaced this with the more desirable connection to the peerage family. 3) It is simply completely made up. As is commonly the case, the only way through this, if at all, is with documents.
taf
Hello,
Thanks for responding. It seems that over time different genealogists have tried "fixing" the connection but apparently nobody has found proof that it did exist and exactly to which family it refers. I would not be surprised that some old pedigree
chart did have something to the effect, but the details are not known and perhaps there was an effort to make her fit into the most desirable family.
The Sandford of the Isle seem to have many old documents going back to the 14th century and in one of them there is a grant in which a few witnesses are named. From the description copied from the online site, it seems there was one William le Boteler,
and if I am interpreting it correctly, he was a knight, living in 1348, but it is unclear if he was in any way related to the rest of the people mentioned, and I have no idea how it relates to the Sandfords.
Reference: 465/14
Title: Grant
Description:
At the Manor of Red/Castle.
James de Audeleye to John de Wottenhull, clerk, of half an acre of land with appurtenances in Marchumleye and common of pasture for his animals in the demesne of the said vill; to hold to him and his heirs of the chief lords of the fee, for the
services due and accustomed, forever.
Rent: Every year at the feast of St. Michael, 3d for every service.
Warranty against all people
James also grants and gives licence to John to acquire a certain piece of land with the appurtenances in Prees called Sydenalemor from Roger Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, and to enclose the piece and hold the enclosure for ever according to the
grant and feoffment made by the Bishop to John without impedement of James or his heirs or tenants, notwithstanding that James and his tenants may have common of pasture in the aforesaid piece.
Witnesses: William le Boteler, Laurence de Lodelowe, knights, John de Laken, John de la Hyde, Robert le Say.
No seal or tag.
Endorsement: Docketed: ?Audeley, Sydnell mor.
Later hand - Marchamley 16 Oct 22 Edw III
Date: 16 October 22 Edward III (1348)
Held by: Shropshire Archives, not available at The National Archives Language: English
J. Sardina
Apparently, there was a pedigree chart consulted by Eyton that may include the generation of the Sandford who is said to have married a Boteler.
In Volume 9, on page 235, when discussing earlier generations of the Sandford, he wrote:
"The Heraldic Pedigrees make Agnes, wife of that Richard de Sanford who died in 1327, to have been Sister of Robert de Say of Moreton. Such a match is quite consistent with chronology."
Unfortunately, his study stops short of the generation of interest.
On page 238, the author made the following statement,
The Writ of Diem clausit, on the death of Richard de Sondford, bears date October 17, 1347. By Inquest, taken at Newport on November 10 following, it was found that the deceased had held the hamlet of Sondford, in capite, for half a knight's-fee. Of
three Mills which appertained to his estate, he had only enjoyed two- thirds, the remaining third constituting the dower of his mother, Agnes, who was still alive.
The deceased had died in foreign parts (obviously in the service above alluded to), on Wednesday, September 26, previous. [7] His son and heir, Nicholas, was 18 years of age on September 29, 1347. [8]
The notes are as follows:
[7] Two days before the truce which followed the famous capitulation of Calais. [8] Inquisitions, 21 Edw. III., No. 36.
I would think that suggest Nicholas' wife might have been of similar age, or younger.
J. Sardina
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