Hello! I just joined this group, my first google group, and am new to this research, though I have read previous posts. I am interested in the Dennis and Stradling families.
You might want to check the accuracy of this info I found on the web, though, given than you're more experienced researchers than I am, it may already be familiar to you:
Coats of arms are hereditary and can be passed down through descendants of the male line. Daughters of men who bear arms are entitled to use them, but their children cannot unless agreed by the monarch.
A woman is a heraldic heiress only if she has no brothers or all her brothers die
without sons or daughters. Shen then carries those arms for the benefit of her
future male descendants.
Illegitimate women are regarded as heraldic heiresses, even if they have brothers.
If the above is accurate and applies to the place and time we're discussing, and if
Katherine indeed had brothers, might the absence of a Stradling heraldic device in
connection to Walter suggest that Katherine is, in fact, legitimate? She apparently
had brothers.
On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 8:24:57 AM UTC-8, Cindy H. wrote:sometimes through grants confirming the specific difference.
Hello! I just joined this group, my first google group, and am new to this research, though I have read previous posts. I am interested in the Dennis and Stradling families.
You might want to check the accuracy of this info I found on the web, though,
given than you're more experienced researchers than I am, it may already be
familiar to you:
Coats of arms are hereditary and can be passed down through descendants of the male line. Daughters of men who bear arms are entitled to use them, butThis is slightly oversimplified. Technically only the senior male heir is entitled to the undifferenced arms. A younger son and his descendants must alter it in some manner. Historically this was done organically, but later it came to be codified,
their children cannot unless agreed by the monarch.
As to children of daughters:entitled to the maternal grandfather as the conduit for them acquiring the maternal inheritance - I have even seen it stated by some older descriptions of the rules of heraldry that one could not represent an ancestral inheritance in heraldry without
A woman is a heraldic heiress only if she has no brothers or all her brothers dieThere is one exception here - if a man had children by two wives, a son by one first and daughters by a second who was herself an heiress, then the children of the daughters would be entitled to the arms of their maternal grandmother, but would also be
without sons or daughters. Shen then carries those arms for the benefit of her
future male descendants.
Remember that many of the modern rules arose as retrospective codification of what at the time had been non-codified social trends, and such trends were not static over time.paternal arms differenced in some manner (there developed differences 'typical' of bastardy, like the bend sinister), but with illegitimate daughters, they could never be heiresses and never pass arms.
Illegitimate women are regarded as heraldic heiresses, even if they have brothers.No, the opposite. At least historically, illegitmate children could never be heirs/heiresses, they were 'children of none'. Technically, they were entitled to no arms whatsoever without a separate grant to them, though in practice they often used their
case - there are examples where in every-day usage someone would simply display the paternal arms or a simplified quartering, while in more formalized commissioned artwork they might display a more elaborate coat with dozens of quarterings representingIf the above is accurate and applies to the place and time we're discussing, and ifNo. Whether legitimate with brothers or illegitimate, she would not have been an heiress and would not have passed arms. Further, though, bear in mind that not everyone entitled to incorporate the arms of a mother who was an heiress did so in every
Katherine indeed had brothers, might the absence of a Stradling heraldic device in
connection to Walter suggest that Katherine is, in fact, legitimate? She apparently
had brothers.
None of this stopped some descendants of an illegitimate daughter from retroactively elevating her status in their heraldry, but this was not exclusive to this specific situation - some of the 17th century heraldic displays included arms for familiesthat weren't even ancestral, simply because they wanted to use the heraldry to 'improve' their claim to land they actually acquired by transfer rather than inheritance.
taf
Hi Cindy,then she couldn’t have been Sir Edward Stradling’s daughter (since he had at least one son, Sir Henry Stradling). However, that specific quartering (a chevron between three roses) has not been repeated in any subsequent Dennis arms, including those
You raise an interesting question that I long puzzled over. I can’t add to subject matter expertise provided by taf, but I can share some thoughts on the 1520 Dennis pedigree.
When I first realized that the arms in the 4th quarter of Sir Walter Dennis’ funerary brass seemed to be identical to those of his mother in the Dennis pedigree, I thought that she was likely legitimate and also that if she was a heraldic heiress,
I would also like to note that, as far as I could tell, the Dennis pedigree is accurate in its representation of the spouses’ arms. For example, we can identify Corbet and Russell arms held by Sir Gilbert Dennis’ wives; Fiennes and Danvers for SirWalter Dennis’ wives; and Twynyho and Berkeley arms for Sir William Dennis’ wives. Keeping that in mind, it strikes me as odd that they would get the Stradling arms wrong both in the pedigree and on the funerary brass. As such, on the basis of this
All the best!Hi Andrew,
Andrew
PS: I am posting via Google Groups and usually respond using the Reply-all button by typing in the field that appears at the bottom after I click it.
On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 8:08:33 PM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:then she couldn’t have been Sir Edward Stradling’s daughter (since he had at least one son, Sir Henry Stradling). However, that specific quartering (a chevron between three roses) has not been repeated in any subsequent Dennis arms, including those
Hi Cindy,
You raise an interesting question that I long puzzled over. I can’t add to subject matter expertise provided by taf, but I can share some thoughts on the 1520 Dennis pedigree.
When I first realized that the arms in the 4th quarter of Sir Walter Dennis’ funerary brass seemed to be identical to those of his mother in the Dennis pedigree, I thought that she was likely legitimate and also that if she was a heraldic heiress,
Sir Walter Dennis’ wives; and Twynyho and Berkeley arms for Sir William Dennis’ wives. Keeping that in mind, it strikes me as odd that they would get the Stradling arms wrong both in the pedigree and on the funerary brass. As such, on the basis ofI would also like to note that, as far as I could tell, the Dennis pedigree is accurate in its representation of the spouses’ arms. For example, we can identify Corbet and Russell arms held by Sir Gilbert Dennis’ wives; Fiennes and Danvers for
All the best!
Andrew
PS: I am posting via Google Groups and usually respond using the Reply-all button by typing in the field that appears at the bottom after I click it.Hi Andrew,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Most interesting information, but it is indeed a puzzlement! Alas, I can't add anything more but will keep my eye on posts in case of a discovery. This is a great group!
Best to you,
Cindy H.
I wonder if the roses in the coat of arms are somehow linked to the "War of the Roses" going on at that time.
Hi, all, I posted under the other post, thanking Taf. I was looking for coat of arms with chevrons and roses and found this:
https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Winchester_College
At the bottom is William Wykeham's coat of arms, with the Chevron and 3 roses on the sinister side. He was the Bishop of Winchester from 1368- 1404, when Henry Beaufort succeeded him.
Could this be related to the mysterious chevron with coat of arms?
Likely just coincidence. The Dictionary of British Arms (v. 3, beginning p. 342)
Hello, Cindy and Andrew,arms (Argent, on a chief gules three bezants) is prominently displayed on Maurice and Walter's monumental brass and is different, as you know, from Walter's 4th quarter. If Maurice's first wife was a Russell from another branch, and was important enough
Thank you, Andrew, for the information you provided a couple of months ago. I really do appreciate it, but have not been on this site for awhile.
The evidence you wrote about seems to support Sir Walter's funerary brass as having a Russell coat of arms in the 4th quarter, and I'm trying to think "outside the (monumental) box", because this is an interesting topic to me also. The Russell coat of
Sir Walter Denys lived long enough to inherit a part of his great grandfather, Sir Maurice Russell's, estate when his grandmother (Margaret Russell's) second husband, John Kemys, died in 1477. John Kemys was Sir Edward Stradling's nephew. Kemysoutlived Maurice Denys, his stepson, by about 17 years, so he must have been pretty old!
I'm interested in how Margaret Russell and her sister came to inherit their father, Maurice's Russell's estate, minus the dower that Russell's second wife, Joan, formerly Dauntsey, got (she married Sir Edward Stradling's brother, John Stradling as asecond husband). Sir Maurice Russell had only daughters by his first wife, and he married the much younger Joan Dauntsey and did have a son and heir by her, Thomas Russell, who died at age 19, along with his infant daughter, while his unnamed wife
I wonder if the roses in the coat of arms are somehow linked to the "War of the Roses" going on at that time.
Here is the original source (Jenyns' Book) for Thomas and Hugh Russell's arms:
Image 92
https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/16161080
Also, here is another photo of the caption for Sir Walter's mother that is found in the 1520 Dennis pedigree:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13sGDTV5AA5aSWECCMACHLckNsY1idF5T/view
Previous one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YM8HHPwcaoHBcAxSyc9PvN8zGd7AxRlu/view
If someone could confirm what Jenyns' Book says about Thomas Russell and what Dennis pedigree says about Sir Walter's mother, that would be much appreciated.
On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 8:59:13 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
Here is the original source (Jenyns' Book) for Thomas and Hugh Russell's arms:
Image 92
https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/16161080
Also, here is another photo of the caption for Sir Walter's mother that is found in the 1520 Dennis pedigree:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13sGDTV5AA5aSWECCMACHLckNsY1idF5T/view
Previous one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YM8HHPwcaoHBcAxSyc9PvN8zGd7AxRlu/view
If someone could confirm what Jenyns' Book says about Thomas Russell and what Dennis pedigree says about Sir Walter's mother, that would be much appreciated.1. my best bet would be (minus the first word for which I have no clue): "Thomas Russell port dor chevron dazure & iii roses de goules as canteles" - Thomas Russell bore or, a chevron azure & 3 roses gules ?'to the corners' - i.e. what we now call 'a chevron between 3 roses'
"Hugh Russell port dor chevron dazure & iii roses de goules labell dargent" (. . . label argent)
Note: 'chevron' does not look like c-h-e-v-r-o-n, specifically at the c-r-o transition, so it may be using an archaic Norman-French spelling I am unaware of, or an odd v-r ligature that renders the 'r' obscure.
2. much harder to read
"Joh'nna Stradlyng ?? ???? Maur^ Denys" (which I am guessing is just 'Joan Stradling, wife of Maurice Denys' using some way of referring to the marriage that I am not recognizing as anything coming to mind)
taf
An acquaintance of mine took a look as well and he believes that it says "Jehanna Stradlyng ux[or] pri[ma] Maur. Denys".
It was also interesting to learn about the changes in heraldic terminology.
On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 3:00:22 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:was unaware Maurice married multiply.
An acquaintance of mine took a look as well and he believes that it says "Jehanna Stradlyng ux[or] pri[ma] Maur. Denys".I agree with ux[or] - I was going to suggest that but particularly with it being abbreviated, I wasn't comfortable saying so without knowng the context better, and I couldn't come up with what the next word would be - not familiar with the family so I
I disagree with the reading of the following word, . . . . well, sort of. There is no 'r' (they are distinctive in this script, looking almost like an 'l' that goes down rather than up, or a 'p' without the 'o' part, extending well below the line oftext as in 'Stradlyng' or 'Maur' in the same document) and there are five(ish) strokes after the 'p' rather than three. However, your acquaintence is barking up the right tree. Now that I know the correct context, the 'signal' jumps out from the 'noise'.
A couple of pages that cover abbreviations used in the script of the time: https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/medievaldocuments/letterformsandabbreviations.aspxjust medieval.
https://chaucer.fas.harvard.edu/how-read-medieval-handwriting-paleography
Additional note: I say these are medieval abbreviations, but I have seen a signature in colonial America where the name Shepard is spelled Sheᵱd, using the 'ᵱ' abbreviation for 'per'/'par' - where the stem of the 'p' is crossed like a 't', so not
taf
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