On 03-Jul-22 11:27 PM, Thomas Dudley-Bonnett wrote:
On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 04:34:16 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 30-Jun-22 7:26 PM, Thomas Dudley-Bonnett wrote:
On Friday, 21 January 2022 at 23:49:05 UTC, judyl...@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, I believe that is the reference. I have not seen any Papal Bulls mentioning her. And in the entry you quote, she is designated the daughter of Giles called Paon of Roeulx.
But am interested in any reasonably credible D'Abricicourt geneaology (I think the family of 'Dabricicourt' had an earlier name as well, which I do not recall as I am at a public terminal waiting for a prescription to be filled).
Judy
On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 1:37:22 AM UTC-6, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
<small snippage>
Does this count as a source for Elizabeth du Roeulx?
Devillers, L, (editor, 1881). Cartulaire des Comtes de Hainault. Brussels, pp. 157-8
Which volume are you looking at? In vol. 1 (1881) these pages are part >>>>> of a bull of Benedict XII in which no Elisabeth is mentioned. Paon du >>>>> Roeulx's daughter Elisabeth, a nun, is named on p. 321 of the same
volume, in a charter of (Empress) Margaret II, countess of Holland,
dated 27 July 1349. She is the only Elisabeth du Roeulx listed in the >>>>> index (vol. 6 part 2).
Peter Stewart
Yes, I forget where I saw it now but a French source lists that the D'Auberchicourt family were originally from Douai who came to Auberchicourt in the 1100s. In the mid to late 1200s the family split, one line stayed in Auberchicourt and another went
to Bugnicourt, both lines kept the name 'D'Auberchicourt', its apparently the Bugnicourt line which the English family descends from. With Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt being first mentioned by Froissart as accompanying Isabella to England in
1326. He is known as 'Of Bugnicourt' and entertained Isabella at his castle there. He received a pension from Edward III in 1331 and was involved in the Scottish wars in 1335. The line which stayed in France apparently petered out in the late 1300s when
the lordships of Auberchicourt and Bugnicourt moved to the Lalaing family.
Are you also descended from this family? I'm looking for anymore information, especially on their movements in France prior on coming to England.
Wauthier or Walbold de Douai, brother of the Lord of Douai, Michel de Douai, known as d'Auberchicourt because he founded the line of lords of Auberchicourt descending from the Lords of Douai, Wauthier appears in an act of 1199. He marries Alix de
Mausny (Masny) and dies in 1209. He is the father of Wauthier or Gauthier II d'Auberchicourt, who died around 1228, Lord of Estaimbourg (Another holding of this family). They were succeeded by the lords known as Auberchicourt, possessing Estaimbourg,
Bernissart, Bugnicourt.
As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that Waltold (not Walbold) of
Auberchicourt was a brother of Michel of Douai - this is an old
assertion that I have never seen proved.
According to Pierre Feuchère, _Les vieilles familles chevaleresques du
nord de la France_, Ière série. no. 1, Auberchicourt (Fontenay-le-Comte, >> 1945) there were two genealogically separate families known by the same
toponym: the first occurring from the late-12th century extinct in all
agnatic branches by the beginning of the 15th century, and the second
appearing in the early 13th century that was ancestral to the English
Dabridgecourts.
Peter Stewart
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From what I can make out the ''Split'' of family was later and involving the latter D'Auberchicourt family.
First was the ''D'Auberchicourt'' family whose line is that of Wauthier/Waltold de Douai, who him and his descendants became 'D'Auberchicourt' then they were succeeded by another family in the first part of the 1200s of the same name who were unrelated
and its this family that the English branch descends from.
Then in the mid or late 1200s there appears to have been a spit in this family, with (I'm assuming) the elder son inheriting the lordship of Auberchicourt and Estaimbourg and this is the line which stays in france and sides with the Kingdom of France
in the hundred years war, Baldwin D'Auberchicourt of Estaimbourg appears to be of this line. This line eventually fades out, with the lose of Auberchicourt, they appear to have held onto Estaimbourg and then lost that later. Jean d'Auberchicourt of
Estaimbourg who was knighted in 1379 and François d'Auberchicourt of Rochefort were likely of this line and the last notable members.
The younger son then inheriting Bugnicourt, and this line sides with England and eventually settles there. I'm not exactly sure when they lost Bugnicourt to the Lalaings, I think it was the 1370s. Sir Collard/Nicholas D'Auberchicourt c1345-1400 is
given as 'Of Bugnicourt' and apparently his son John D'Auberchicourt c1375-1417 was also born at Bugnicourt, Although I have a feeling he was perhaps born at StratfieldSaye.
The first time Froissart seems mention the family is of Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt in 1326 on his reception of Queen Isabella. I wonder if Nicholas is a son or grandson of the Baldwin D'Auberchicourt who was killed at the battle of Courtrai
in 1302.
As far as the evidence goes, there appear to have been two different
(but unfortunately indistinct) families called d'Auberchicourt - the
first of these was a branch of the castallans of Douai and the second apparently headed by Waltold (aka Walbold), who has been arbitrarily
attached as a brother of Michael of Douai with no proof of this
relationship.
The English Dabridgecourts descended from the second family, not from a
cadet or "split" line of the first.
There are many examples at this feudal level of different families using
the same toponyms - presumably in most cases one meaning "of X" as
hereditary lords of that place and the other meaning "from X" as
originating from there and likely descending from a vassal of the first
family.
Genealogists using "name's-the-same = same family" methodology (or lack
of it) and/or trying to link every random individual to the best-known
lineage of a particular surname have caused endless confusion.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
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