• Re: Sir Paunettus, kinsman to Edward the Black Prince: Clue to ancestry

    From Judy Perry@21:1/5 to Peter Stewart on Fri Jan 21 16:02:56 2022
    On Wednesday, March 12, 2008 at 1:56:36 AM UTC-6, Peter Stewart wrote: <snippety-snip>
    standard appointment to the prebend of the chapter of Sainte-Waudru at Mons, following the death of the previous incumbent Beatrix de Wallaincourt. This was not hereditary - after the death of Elizabeth de Ruet it went to Jeanne d'Ecaussines, as you found, <more snippity> The
    only genealogial point of note in the charter of Margaret for this
    discussion is
    nobili adolescentule Elizabet dicte dou Ruet domini E[g]idii dicti
    Paonet de Ruet filie
    "to the young noblewoman Elizabeth called du Ruet, daughter of Gilles called Paonet de Ruet".

    Agreed. Not hereditary at all. Like beguinages that were springing up in the areas around there, the secular canonesses of St. Waudru tended to be from VERY prominent families, which Roeulx was any whereas any unrelated Roet was not.

    There is no definite significance to "dou" in this text - "du" = "de le" is French and does not exist in Latin; its use here was evidently an error, quite apart from the inconsistency with "de Ruet" used for her father, and perhaps these grammatically anomalous designations were not written by a French-speaking scribe.

    Indeed. The absence of standardized spelling renders any such critical modern language textual analysis next to worthless, doesn't it?

    The other charter quoted, Albert of Bavaria's dated 24 July 1368, is only useful for showing when Elizabeth had recently died. There is nothing here
    to help establish whether her father Gilles was the same man as Katherine's father Paon, or to prove beyond question that either of them belonged to the family of Le Roeulx.

    Except that the first charter duly noted Elizabeth as being the daughter of Giles _called_ Paon Roet or Rouelx.

    Judy

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  • From Judy Perry@21:1/5 to Derek Howard on Fri Jan 21 16:11:50 2022
    On Saturday, March 15, 2008 at 3:01:35 AM UTC-6, Derek Howard wrote:
    If I might just add a few thoughts for consideration to this thread,
    though they do not lead to any firm conclusions :
    The coat of arms of the Roelx family ("Die He. V. Rues") was Argent
    three lions rampant Gules. [Gelre roll of arms, no 1062, in "Gelre BR
    Ms 15652-56", ed. van Helmont, Leuven 1992, p 340, illustrated page
    197]. This is _not_ the same as the arms recorded for Katherine de
    Roet in England, which were canting arms. This suggests she was not
    entitled to the Roelx arms and, if she was descended from them or
    another knightly or noble family, she or possibly her father may have
    been illegitimate.

    Or that they were English arms granted her father by Edward III. The Roeulx family patrimony had been decimated by then with the family forced to sell back all its holdings to the Count of Hainaut, and their title held in abeyance until significantly
    later when it was granted to the Croy family.

    <snip>

    The term Paon is almost certainly the word for peacock. There is a
    possible rationale for this. The crest of the Counts of Hainault
    consisted of peacock feathers as did de Melun lord of Antoing and the
    marshal of Hainault also used peacock feathers, so did the Drossard or Seneschal of Hainault (de Werchin). A representative such as a king of
    arms, or indeed a junior or illegitimate relative may well have been
    referred to as such in the diminutive. It was commonplace for heralds
    to take their title from an heraldic emblem of their masters, as an alternative to from their titles or territory, and to be widely known
    by their title. It was also not uncommon for kings of arms in the low counties to be distantly related to the ruling families. If there is
    any truth at all in the allegations of a connection to the position of Guyenne king of arms, this may have been preceded by a period as
    herald of Hainault.

    Giles dit Paon was probably a household attendant of some sort upon the count.

    The chapter of the abbey of St Wadru at Mons was restricted to members
    of the nobility. To have a position in the chapter would have required
    proof of the appropriate noble quarters. At a much later date this was legislated for in some detail but in essence had been the same since
    its foundation.

    Yes, hence why it is informative that one Elizabeth, specifically called the daughter of Giles of Roeulx *called* Paon was named a secular canoness to St. Waudru so significant.

    The Roelx family were a junior branch of the Counts of Hainault and
    were extinct in 1336.

    This is absolutely false. A passing glance at the family indicates that there were all kinds of descendants running around.

    However, there were members by the name of
    Gilles before that. "Gilles dis Rigaus dou Rues" was a party, at Mons,
    to a declaration in 1277-78 and sealed with his arms. "Gilles dis
    Rigaux sires dou Roes" "amortit" the land on which the chapel of
    Bellecourt was built 1 April 1297. "Mes sires Giles dis Rigaus sires
    dou Roelz chevalier" sealed an act of the baillie of Hainault in 1297.
    His seal included the Roelx arms and the legend "Sr Egidii dicti
    Rigavt militis dni de Rodio". [de Raadt: Sceaux armoriƩs des Pays-Bas
    et des pays avoisinants, tome III, reprint 1999, page 232]. Note it is
    not unusual to have a nickname as well as first name even on a seal.
    I am not convinced that the record of the tomb inscription in St Pauls referred to elsewhere on the thread represents a real transcription
    from sight of the tomb. The wording surrounding the inscription
    suggests it was speculation and the alleged wording of the tomb was no
    more than was well known from other sources, the damage too
    conveniently obscuring a lack of detail that would be expected on the
    real thing.

    Well, no. The evidence indicates it was put there/the brass that is sometime after 1396.

    Judy

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