On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 at 7:08:21 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:

Dear Newsgroup ~

Charles Ward contacted me offlist recently and brought my attention to a possible King Edward I descent for the New World immigrant, Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, Gentleman [died 1676], of Llangewydd, Gower, Glamorganshire, Wales, and

Boston, Massachusetts. After Charles Ward contacted me, I discovered that Susan Johanson had two similar lines of descents in her online database.

The critical generation below is Generation 6 (Anne le Boteler or Butler = John Wogan). John Wogan is stated in several ancient Welsh pedigrees published by Meyrick to have married Anne, daughter of the Earl of Ormond.

Elsewhere I find that Peter Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 3 (1980): 86 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2] states that "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond."

Mr. Bartrum's Wogan pedigree may be view at the following weblink:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5373/bleddyn%20ap%20maenyrch%202.png?sequence=1

I've since done additional research on the Wogan family. As best I can tell, Generation 6 is sound. John Wogan's father, Sir David Wogan [died 1417], was a wealthy Irish nobleman who owned one castle in Ireland and one in England. As such, I have no

trouble accepting that Sir David Wogan's son and heir apparent, John Wogan, was married to a daughter of the Earl of Ormond as claimed.

I've copied below my file account of John Wogan and his wife, Anne le Boteler (or Butler). I've also copied below the information presented in Susan Johanson's database which shows the two lines of descent from John Wogan and his wife, Anne, down to

Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, Gentleman. Susan Johanson's database can be viewed at the following weblink:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=johanson&id=I53334

Special thanks go to Charles Ward and Susan Johanson for their assistance in this matter. As a double descendant of Margaret (Fleming) Bowen, I'm most interested in this line.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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My file account:

ANNE LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), married probably in 1405 (date of settlement) JOHN WOGAN, of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, son and heir apparent of David Wogan, Knt. (died 1417), of Kilka, Balymacloghter, Berton, Carbry, Cliwyn, Dunlost, Maynon, Meon,

Okethy, Rathcoffy, and Tristeldermot, and Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, King's knight, by his 1st wife, Anne, daughter of William Plunket, Knt., of Ireland. He was born say 1385. They had two daughters, Katherine (wife of Harry Wogan, Knt., and Owain
Dwnn) and Anne (wife of Oliver Eustace, Knt.). JOHN WOGAN probably died before 1414 (date of settlement).

References:

Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 and 1613 1 (1846): 21 (Dwnn ped.: "Syr David Wgan a briododd Ann sol aeres Syr William Blwnket o Werddon marchog. ai mab John Wgan o Bicton esgwier a briododd Ann v Iarl

Wormond ai verched ac aeressav oeddynt ddwy yr hynaf Katrin gwraid Owain Dwnn o Modlysgwmb Esgwier, ar llal oedd Ann gwraid Syr Olvir Ewstans o Weddon Kt."), 42 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan off Picton Esqr = ........ merch Iarll Wormed."), 220 (Wogan ped.: "
John Wgan o Bicton Esg. = Ann do to Iarll Wermod o Werddon."); 2 (1846): 53. Morris, County Seats of the Noblemen & Gentlemen of Great Britain & Ireland 1 (1866): 21-22. Jour. County Kildare Arch. Soc. 2 (1899): 5-6. Allen, Notes on the Sheriffs of
Pembrokeshire, 1541-1899 (1900): 3-4. Owen, Old Pembroke Fams. in the Ancient County Palatine of Pembroke (1902): 35-45 ("David [Wogan], like his predecessors, had large possessions in Ireland, and in 1408 had a licence to ship four weighs of wheat to
his castle in Wales. David had two sons: John, whose daughter Katherine brought Picton to Owen Donn, whose grand-daughter Jane brought it to Thomas Phillips of Cilsant; and Thomas, the ancestor of the Wogans of Rathcoffy, in co. Kildare."). West Wales
Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232. Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300-1400 3 (1980): 86 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2: "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond"].

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Descents taken from Susan Johanson's database:

1. King Edward I of England, died 1307, married Eleanor of Castile.
2. Elizabeth PLANTAGENET b: 07 AUG 1282 d: 05 MAY 1316
+ Humphrey de BOHUN b: ABT 1276 d: 16 MAR 1322
3. Eleanor de BOHUN b: BET 1313 AND 1314 d: 1363
+ James BUTLER 1st Earl of Ormond b: ABT 1305 d: 06 JAN 1338
4. James BUTLER 2nd Earl of Ormond b: 04 OCT 1331 d: 18 OCT 1382
+ Elizabeth DARCY b: ABT 1335 d: 24 MAR 1390
5. James BUTLER 3rd Earl of Ormond b: AFT 1361 d: 07 SEP 1405
+ Anne de WELLES b: ABT 1360 d: AFT 26 JUN 1397
6. Anne BUTLER b: ABT 1395 d: UNKNOWN
+ John WOGAN b: ABT 1390 d: 1421
7. Katherine WOGAN b: ABT 1417 d: UNKNOWN
+ Owain Dwnn ap MAREDUDD b: ABT 1395 d: UNKNOWN
8. Harry Dwnn ap OWAIN DWNN b: ABT 1435 d: 26 JUL 1469
+ Margaret WOGAN b: ABT 1440 d: UNKNOWN
9. Jenet ferch HARRY DWNN b: ABT 1454 d: UNKNOWN
+ Trahaearn ap MORGAN b: ABT 1452 d: UNKNOWN
10. Catrin ferch TRAHAERN b: ABT 1485 d: UNKNOWN
+ Henry BARRETT b: ABT 1482 d: UNKNOWN
11. Margaret BARRETT b: ABT 1520 d: UNKNOWN
+ William DAWKIN b: ABT 1515 d: UNKNOWN
12. Jenkin DAWKIN b: ABT 1545 d: UNKNOWN
+ Elizabeth JENKIN b: ABT 1545 d: UNKNOWN
13. Sarah DAWKINS b: ABT 1572 d: UNKNOWN
+ Henry FLEMING b: ABT 1568 d: AFT 1650
14. Margaret Fleming b: ABT 1605 d: 1675
+ Griffith BOWEN b: ABT 1600 d: 1676

2nd Line

9. Jenet ferch HARRY DWNN b: ABT 1454 d: UNKNOWN
+ Trahaearn ap MORGAN b: ABT 1452 d: UNKNOWN
10. Harry MORGAN b: ABT 1470 d: UNKNOWN
+ Margred WOGAN b: ABT 1475 d: UNKNOWN
11. Anne MORGAN b: ABT 1500 d: UNKNOWN
+ William PENRY b: ABT 1490 d: UNKNOWN
12. Elsbeth PENRY b: ABT 1522 d: UNKNOWN
+ Hugh ap DAVID b: ABT 1515 d: UNKNOWN
13. Sara ferch HUGH b: ABT 1540 d: UNKNOWN
+ William FLEMING b: ABT 1530 d: UNKNOWN
14. Henry FLEMING b: ABT 1568 d: AFT 1650
+ Sarah DAWKINS b: ABT 1572 d: UNKNOWN
15. Margaret Fleming b: ABT 1605 d: 1675
+ Griffith BOWEN b: ABT 1600 d: 1676

hi i have a john bowen who was married to a joan wogan also have Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen and a whole lot of other bowens in my family tree and well i'm still trying to figer the whole bunch out because well i have came to find out
that well both of my parents are related to each other from one of my bowen aunsisters but well where my other bowen are pop ing out at me are also with my dad mother side now because in her tree is where john bowen and joan wogan are showing up at
there child name is a Elizabeth Bowen. if i could just have some one help me out here on this maybe we could figer out whats going on with the whole tree. lol. my tree is over on ancestry i also did a DNA as well. thanks so very much for reading my
post.

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