I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can traceher linage to withought gaps?
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 9:10:16 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:her linage to withought gaps?
I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can trace
Really depends on what you mean by 'gaps'. There are a range of qualities of genealogical information, without a black and white division between fully acceptable and absolutely wrong. There is no consistent benchmark for what level of uncertainly,niggling doubt or unconfirmed single sources of late date rise to the level of representing a 'gap'.
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:53:38 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:trace her linage to withought gaps?
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 9:10:16 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:
I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can
niggling doubt or unconfirmed single sources of late date rise to the level of representing a 'gap'.Really depends on what you mean by 'gaps'. There are a range of qualities of genealogical information, without a black and white division between fully acceptable and absolutely wrong. There is no consistent benchmark for what level of uncertainly,
Well, yes; but maybe the OP question can best be answered by saying that all of the individuals proposed in that thread (the Western ones at least), are all ancestral to the queen. So the answer to the question "Who is the oldest traceable europeanancestor of any european?' and 'who is the oldest traceable ancestor of Queen Elizabeth?' Quite possibly have the same answer. There is no one who can trace a genealogical line before the 10th century that does not consist of the uber-wealthy or uber-
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to beforethe 1350s or so...
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:before the 1350s or so...
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.
Stewart Baldwin
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:before the 1350s or so...
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.
Stewart Baldwin
I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:before the 1350s or so...
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.
Stewart Baldwin
As far as I know churches diden't start keeping record of baptisms, marriages and deaths of the until the prodesitent reformation in the mid 1500s. Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wire with no documentation. Also keepin mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keep records. In addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever. The furest commoner that anyone in
Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wire
with no documentation.
Also keep in mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not
even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keep records.
In addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever.
The furest commoner that anyone in Europe can trace their ancestery
to withought gaps to the best of my knowlage is Fulbert de Falise. He
was believed to be a tanner or mortition. His daughter became the
mistress of Robert I "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy and had the Illegitament child William "the Conqueror" FitzRobert, Duke of Normandy,
King of England.
I think that a genealogist in Germany has traced one of the ancestral families of my great grandfather and great grandmother from the Winnenden area of Württemberg to an Ulrich Hilt born about 1465 (my great grandfather's ancestor once and my greatgrandmother's four times so far in the records I have seen). I haven't had time yet to study the specific records used for this line before the parish registers (1558).
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 12:36:57 PM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:grandmother's four times so far in the records I have seen). I haven't had time yet to study the specific records used for this line before the parish registers (1558).
I think that a genealogist in Germany has traced one of the ancestral families of my great grandfather and great grandmother from the Winnenden area of Württemberg to an Ulrich Hilt born about 1465 (my great grandfather's ancestor once and my great
Yes, the families of Winnenden and Württemberg are very well documented in town records even before baptismal records.recorded selling his wares. The citizenship lists of Marburg go into the early 1400s I believe. There are records of the homeowners and residences down generation to generation back this far. Luckily there is a single work that records every family of
The oldest non-notable I can see in my line is one Heintz Rabe of Marburg, Hesse, Germany who was born probably in the 1390s. He held some small town office, and I descend through his son Johannes who was not notable at all, just a baker who is
The problem earlier than this is that people didn't really have "family names" of any sort in the records much earlier that were passed generation to generation. In some parts of germany, family names were not common even by 1500 CE.Matt Tompkins posted notes to soc.genealogy.medieval in 2006 showing that the Pigott family of Little Horwood in Buckinghamshire faked its pedigree in the visitations and descended from peasant families in Great Horwood and Winslow. His thesis sets out
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:before the 1350s or so...
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.
Stewart Baldwin
I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to beforethe 1350s or so...
--Joe C
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 1:14:46 AM UTC-5, Stewart Baldwin wrote:before the 1350s or so...
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.
Stewart BaldwinDo we disqualify the line if any wife in the line had an ancestor who was a knight or titled?
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:05:41 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:social ladder. As a result, on a manorial level as well as in the livery companies of cities there were numerous records of commoners. But as you say . . .
Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wireThis is an oversimplification.
with no documentation.
Also keep in mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keep records.This really isn't the case. Most kings were at least minimally literate. Likewise, there was a burgeoning bureaucracy staffed by literate clerks that recorded all kinds of records (court, tax, transactions) up and down (though not all the way down) the
Even were he a commoner, I don't think he was the earliest. Robert of Normandy isn't the first prominent man recorded to have taken a 'commoner' as mistress (even among the Norman Dukes), and some of the pedigrees get us back, at least for a generation,In addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever.
The furest commoner that anyone in Europe can trace their ancesteryFulbert's status is not well documented. At least one scholar has suggested that the historical anecdote that led to him being viewed as a tanner has been misinterpreted, and that he was actually a chamberlain, which would not be a role for a commoner.
to withought gaps to the best of my knowlage is Fulbert de Falise. He
was believed to be a tanner or mortition. His daughter became the
mistress of Robert I "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy and had the Illegitament child William "the Conqueror" FitzRobert, Duke of Normandy, King of England.
taf
snipnta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
In article <4r68le$p...@peach.america.net>, "Gerald L. Blanchard"
<jer...@america.net> wrote:
It is as you say the 12th century _Gesta Consulum_, which tellsBut what about Tertulle? Did he ever exist? Does anyone know
of any contemporary source that mentions him. I remember reading
that Ingelger, father of Fulk I, had a father called Tordulf or
Tortulf the Woodman, who is supposed to have received land
from Charles the Bald. Has this ever been verified? Even so
if this Tortulf is Tertulle, was he count of Anjou?
I don't have these materials to hand, but for some reason Bachrach seemed
to accept the (late) evidence of the Gesta consulum andegavorum and
assumed that the named parents of Ingelger were real people--they may not >have been counts (or marquesses), but they probably were not 'woodmen'.
It was a common device of the twelfth-century comital genealogies to >attribute the line to someone who rose by merit, like a knight errant,
under the middle or later Carolingians.
Even if Tertullus and Petronilla are historical personages and the
testimony of the gesta is to be accepted, there is no known genealogical
link from Ingelger to Charlemagne, and that was the point of the original >post.
Nat Taylor
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:59:03 PM UTC, taf wrote:the social ladder. As a result, on a manorial level as well as in the livery companies of cities there were numerous records of commoners. But as you say . . .
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:05:41 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:
Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wire with no documentation.This is an oversimplification.
Also keep in mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keepThis really isn't the case. Most kings were at least minimally literate. Likewise, there was a burgeoning bureaucracy staffed by literate clerks that recorded all kinds of records (court, tax, transactions) up and down (though not all the way down)
records.
commoner. Even were he a commoner, I don't think he was the earliest. Robert of Normandy isn't the first prominent man recorded to have taken a 'commoner' as mistress (even among the Norman Dukes), and some of the pedigrees get us back, at least for aIn addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever.
The furest commoner that anyone in Europe can trace their ancesteryFulbert's status is not well documented. At least one scholar has suggested that the historical anecdote that led to him being viewed as a tanner has been misinterpreted, and that he was actually a chamberlain, which would not be a role for a
to withought gaps to the best of my knowlage is Fulbert de Falise. He
was believed to be a tanner or mortition. His daughter became the
mistress of Robert I "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy and had the Illegitament child William "the Conqueror" FitzRobert, Duke of Normandy, King of England.
Arnulf of Mentz b.582 has sufficant documentation to Emperor Charlamange.tafThe Angevins claimed descent from one Tortulf the Woodman [AKA Tertulle]. He doesnt sound that
noble. And so the queen would also be descended from him. But did he actually exist? I found this
old post in the archives from 1996 about him:
snipnta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
In article <4r68le$p...@peach.america.net>, "Gerald L. Blanchard"
<jer...@america.net> wrote:
But what about Tertulle? Did he ever exist? Does anyone know
of any contemporary source that mentions him. I remember reading
that Ingelger, father of Fulk I, had a father called Tordulf or
Tortulf the Woodman, who is supposed to have received land
from Charles the Bald. Has this ever been verified? Even so
if this Tortulf is Tertulle, was he count of Anjou?
I don't have these materials to hand, but for some reason Bachrach seemed >to accept the (late) evidence of the Gesta consulum andegavorum and >assumed that the named parents of Ingelger were real people--they may not >have been counts (or marquesses), but they probably were not 'woodmen'.
It was a common device of the twelfth-century comital genealogies to >attribute the line to someone who rose by merit, like a knight errant, >under the middle or later Carolingians.
Even if Tertullus and Petronilla are historical personages and the >testimony of the gesta is to be accepted, there is no known genealogical >link from Ingelger to Charlemagne, and that was the point of the original >post.
Nat TaylorIt is as you say the 12th century _Gesta Consulum_, which tells
the history of the Angevin dynasty from the 9th century, which
furnishes these genealogical details.
In this source, Tertulle was the son of Tortulf, who it says
was made royal forester at Limelle near Angers by Charles the
Bald. He rose to favour with the king, and his son Tertulle
became a _clientela regis_ at court, and received the benefice
or fief of Chateau-Landon in the Gatinais. But he was not a
count, only a _miles_. The king arranged his marriage to
Petronilla relative of Hugo the Abbot (d.886). Their son Ingelgar
married the grand-daughter of the lord of Amboise, who was also
the niece of Adalard Archbishop of Tours 875-91, and Raino of
Angers 880-905. He served first as viscount of Orleans, then
'prefect of Tours', before becoming Count of Anjou.
So goes the story. However the _Gesta_ is probably not a
reliable source for the 9th century, written as it was so far
removed from the period it describes, and under direction of
Fulk IV: as you say it is doubtful whether Tertulle or Petronilla
existed. Their names are unlikely for the 9th century. The
_gesta_ uses 12th century forms and langauge which would not
be the case if they were genuinely working from 9th century
materials or sources. Moreover even Ingelgar was never count
of Anjou: his son Fulk I only took that title in 929. The
_gesta_ seeks to legitimise the dynasty's ancestral control
of Anjou and the Loire valley, by connecting it to Charles
the Bald and earlier noble families. However in ascribing a
relationship with Hugo the abbot, it may preserve a tradition
that the ancesters of Fulk I served in the retinue of the
9th century Marquis's of Neustria; Robert the Strong (d.866),
Hugo the Abbot (866-86), Odo (886-8), Robert II (886-922).
As their deputy, Ingelgar may well have been viscount of
Orleans and then Tours. While I have yet to locate a Tortulf
or a Tertulle in the sources of the second half of the ninth
century, there are several Ingelgars. I shall keep looking.
And presumably never found any evidence. But surely the oldest verifiable ancestor
of the Queen is Egbert of Wessex d839 ?
mike
I believe (I haven’t personally done the documentary research) I am descended from a
Swiss family named Ringger from Canton Zurich; the progenitor is said to be Uli Ringger,
born in the first half of the 14th c.
I also have a descent from the Maplesden/Mapelsden family of Kent, which included mayors
of Maidstone (and also knights later, but not in my direct line). Would this count? If the Kent
visitation is to be believed (admittedly a big “IF”), the family descends from a Henry Mapelsden
who must (according to generational math) have flourished in the mid- to late-14th c.
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 7:14:46 AM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:before the 1350s or so...
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote: >>
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.
Stewart Baldwin
I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?
Somebody (Stewart Baldwin?) suggested Fulbert the "tanner".
I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can traceher linage to withought gaps?
On 1/21/2022 3:19 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:before the 1350s or so...
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 7:14:46 AM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.
Stewart Baldwin
I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?
Somebody (Stewart Baldwin?) suggested Fulbert the "tanner". Along that
line, what about Ketil, father of Aud, and on up in Iceland? I descend
from her.
I do the genetic genealogy for the Clan Donald. I would argue that up in Scotland it all depends on what you consider gentry or "knight". IF
you equate Clan chief to "knight" the we're in that category, but
numerous of ours are mighty low level for "knight" .... "famous Scots
Mafia hitman" would be accurate. Even quite a few not so famous. We've
got the DNA to back it up.
Doug McDonald
Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
Stewart BaldwinThanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
Stewart BaldwinThanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:Stewart BaldwinThanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.
David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (
I don't know whether or not online versions are available.
On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:Stewart BaldwinThanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.
David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (
I don't know whether or not online versions are available.Thanks for this, Stewart.
Stewart Baldwin
On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:Stewart BaldwinThanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.
David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (
I don't know whether or not online versions are available.Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?
Stewart Baldwin
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:following:
Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?The problem is that the evidence is too ambiguous to have any confidence in either direction. The Irish origin is likely enough, but even then there is no reason to believe in a migration led by Fergus. A couple of other relevant articles are the
Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:following:
Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?The problem is that the evidence is too ambiguous to have any confidence in either direction. The Irish origin is likely enough, but even then there is no reason to believe in a migration led by Fergus. A couple of other relevant articles are the
Richard Sharpe, "The Thriving of Dalriada" in Simon Taylor, ed., Kings, Clerics, and Chronicles in Scotland, 500-1297. Essays in honour of Marjorie Ogilvie Anderson on the occasion of her 90th birthday (Four Courts Press, 2000), 47-61.Thanks for this, Stewart. As https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata#Origins says, the theory of an Irish origin for Dál Riata was disputed by archaeologist Dr Ewan Campbell in his academic paper Were the Scots Irish?. However, looking more
Alex Woolf, Ancient Kindred? Dál Riata and the Cruthin (unpublished, ca. 2001).
I believe that Woolf's article is available on Academia.com. I don't know about the Sharpe article.
Stewart Baldwin
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