• What is the furthest ancester that the queen confidently can trace her

    From Dude@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 20 09:10:12 2022
    I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can trace her
    linage to withought gaps?

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to Dude on Thu Jan 20 10:53:36 2022
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 9:10:16 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:
    I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can trace
    her linage to withought gaps?

    Really depends on what you mean by 'gaps'. There are a range of qualities of genealogical information, without a black and white division between fully acceptable and absolutely wrong. There is no consistent benchmark for what level of uncertainly,
    niggling doubt or unconfirmed single sources of late date rise to the level of representing a 'gap'.

    taf

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  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to taf on Thu Jan 20 14:15:35 2022
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:53:38 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 9:10:16 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:
    I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can trace
    her linage to withought gaps?
    Really depends on what you mean by 'gaps'. There are a range of qualities of genealogical information, without a black and white division between fully acceptable and absolutely wrong. There is no consistent benchmark for what level of uncertainly,
    niggling doubt or unconfirmed single sources of late date rise to the level of representing a 'gap'.

    Well, yes; but maybe the OP question can best be answered by saying that all of the individuals proposed in that thread (the Western ones at least), are all ancestral to the queen. So the answer to the question "Who is the oldest traceable european
    ancestor of any european?' and 'who is the oldest traceable ancestor of Queen Elizabeth?' Quite possibly have the same answer. There is no one who can trace a genealogical line before the 10th century that does not consist of the uber-wealthy or uber-
    powerful.

    Joe C

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  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to joseph cook on Thu Jan 20 14:17:55 2022
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-5, joseph cook wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:53:38 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 9:10:16 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:
    I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can
    trace her linage to withought gaps?
    Really depends on what you mean by 'gaps'. There are a range of qualities of genealogical information, without a black and white division between fully acceptable and absolutely wrong. There is no consistent benchmark for what level of uncertainly,
    niggling doubt or unconfirmed single sources of late date rise to the level of representing a 'gap'.
    Well, yes; but maybe the OP question can best be answered by saying that all of the individuals proposed in that thread (the Western ones at least), are all ancestral to the queen. So the answer to the question "Who is the oldest traceable european
    ancestor of any european?' and 'who is the oldest traceable ancestor of Queen Elizabeth?' Quite possibly have the same answer. There is no one who can trace a genealogical line before the 10th century that does not consist of the uber-wealthy or uber-
    powerful.

    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to before
    the 1350s or so...

    --Joe C

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  • From Stewart Baldwin@21:1/5 to joe...@gmail.com on Thu Jan 20 22:14:45 2022
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to before
    the 1350s or so...

    I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.

    Stewart Baldwin

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  • From lancaster.boon@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Stewart Baldwin on Fri Jan 21 01:19:21 2022
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 7:14:46 AM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
    before the 1350s or so...
    I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.

    Stewart Baldwin

    I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?

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  • From antoinebarbry@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 21 01:38:30 2022
    Le vendredi 21 janvier 2022 à 07:14:46 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin a écrit :
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
    before the 1350s or so...
    I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.

    Stewart Baldwin

    "Bourgeoisie" registers in French and Belgian Flanders begin very early (1291 for Lille or 1380 for Ypres for example) and it is not unusual to be able to trace a line to the earliest registers. I have myself solid lines until individuals probably born
    late 1300s-early 1400s.
    regards

    antoine

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  • From Vance Mead@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 21 02:31:42 2022
    There are IPMs, feet of fines and Common Pleas records going back to the early 13th century, so there could be people who are gentry (by a later definition) but not knights, lords or barons. (Though Knights in the 13th century were a broader social class
    than they were in the 15th century.)


    I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?

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  • From Dude@21:1/5 to Stewart Baldwin on Fri Jan 21 05:05:40 2022
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 1:14:46 AM UTC-5, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
    before the 1350s or so...
    I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.

    Stewart Baldwin

    As far as I know churches diden't start keeping record of baptisms, marriages and deaths of the until the prodesitent reformation in the mid 1500s. Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wire with no documentation. Also keep in
    mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keep records. In addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever. The furest commoner that anyone in
    Europe can trace their ancestery to withought gaps to the best of my knowlage is Fulbert de Falise. He was believed to be a tanner or mortition. His daughter became the mistress of Robert I "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy and had the Illegitament
    child William "the Conqueror" FitzRobert, Duke of Normandy, King of England. But to answer your question you will almost certainly not find record of any of your ancestors that lived before the mid 1400s unless they had a signifagent social status.

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  • From Vance Mead@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 21 05:25:18 2022
    In England there were records that included common people back through the 14th century: Poll Tax returns, lay subsidies, manorial court rolls, legal records...

    That's no guarantee that you will be able to trace any particular family, but records exist.

    As far as I know churches diden't start keeping record of baptisms, marriages and deaths of the until the prodesitent reformation in the mid 1500s. Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wire with no documentation. Also keep
    in mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keep records. In addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever. The furest commoner that anyone in
    Europe can trace their ancestery to withought gaps to the best of my knowlage is Fulbert de Falise. He was believed to be a tanner or mortition. His daughter became the mistress of Robert I "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy and had the Illegitament
    child William "the Conqueror" FitzRobert, Duke of Normandy, King of England. But to answer your question you will almost certainly not find record of any of your ancestors that lived before the mid 1400s unless they had a signifagent social status.

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  • From Jan Wolfe@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 21 07:26:55 2022
    John McCoy has used notarial records in Switzerland to trace the Dutoit family of Moudon to the mid 1400s. See https://www.realmac.info/~chevaud/dutoit/ or http://sites.rootsweb.com/~chevaud/dutoit/.

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to Dude on Fri Jan 21 09:59:01 2022
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:05:41 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:

    Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wire
    with no documentation.

    This is an oversimplification.

    Also keep in mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not
    even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keep records.

    This really isn't the case. Most kings were at least minimally literate. Likewise, there was a burgeoning bureaucracy staffed by literate clerks that recorded all kinds of records (court, tax, transactions) up and down (though not all the way down) the
    social ladder. As a result, on a manorial level as well as in the livery companies of cities there were numerous records of commoners. But as you say . . .

    In addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever.

    The furest commoner that anyone in Europe can trace their ancestery
    to withought gaps to the best of my knowlage is Fulbert de Falise. He
    was believed to be a tanner or mortition. His daughter became the
    mistress of Robert I "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy and had the Illegitament child William "the Conqueror" FitzRobert, Duke of Normandy,
    King of England.

    Fulbert's status is not well documented. At least one scholar has suggested that the historical anecdote that led to him being viewed as a tanner has been misinterpreted, and that he was actually a chamberlain, which would not be a role for a commoner.
    Even were he a commoner, I don't think he was the earliest. Robert of Normandy isn't the first prominent man recorded to have taken a 'commoner' as mistress (even among the Norman Dukes), and some of the pedigrees get us back, at least for a generation,
    to what was basically a tribal setting where it is hard to project these terms of social stratification onto individuals.

    taf

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  • From Jan Wolfe@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 21 09:36:56 2022
    I think that a genealogist in Germany has traced one of the ancestral families of my great grandfather and great grandmother from the Winnenden area of Württemberg to an Ulrich Hilt born about 1465 (my great grandfather's ancestor once and my great
    grandmother's four times so far in the records I have seen). I haven't had time yet to study the specific records used for this line before the parish registers (1558).

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  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to Jan Wolfe on Fri Jan 21 13:46:29 2022
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 12:36:57 PM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:
    I think that a genealogist in Germany has traced one of the ancestral families of my great grandfather and great grandmother from the Winnenden area of Württemberg to an Ulrich Hilt born about 1465 (my great grandfather's ancestor once and my great
    grandmother's four times so far in the records I have seen). I haven't had time yet to study the specific records used for this line before the parish registers (1558).

    Yes, the families of Winnenden and Württemberg are very well documented in town records even before baptismal records.

    The oldest non-notable I can see in my line is one Heintz Rabe of Marburg, Hesse, Germany who was born probably in the 1390s. He held some small town office, and I descend through his son Johannes who was not notable at all, just a baker who is recorded
    selling his wares. The citizenship lists of Marburg go into the early 1400s I believe. There are records of the homeowners and residences down generation to generation back this far. Luckily there is a single work that records every family of every
    person who ever lived in Marburg, Germany. 1500-1850 and their relatives and biographical details.

    The problem earlier than this is that people didn't really have "family names" of any sort in the records much earlier that were passed generation to generation. In some parts of germany, family names were not common even by 1500 CE.

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  • From sswanson@butler.edu@21:1/5 to joe...@gmail.com on Fri Jan 21 14:11:56 2022
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:46:30 PM UTC-5, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 12:36:57 PM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:
    I think that a genealogist in Germany has traced one of the ancestral families of my great grandfather and great grandmother from the Winnenden area of Württemberg to an Ulrich Hilt born about 1465 (my great grandfather's ancestor once and my great
    grandmother's four times so far in the records I have seen). I haven't had time yet to study the specific records used for this line before the parish registers (1558).
    Yes, the families of Winnenden and Württemberg are very well documented in town records even before baptismal records.

    The oldest non-notable I can see in my line is one Heintz Rabe of Marburg, Hesse, Germany who was born probably in the 1390s. He held some small town office, and I descend through his son Johannes who was not notable at all, just a baker who is
    recorded selling his wares. The citizenship lists of Marburg go into the early 1400s I believe. There are records of the homeowners and residences down generation to generation back this far. Luckily there is a single work that records every family of
    every person who ever lived in Marburg, Germany. 1500-1850 and their relatives and biographical details.

    The problem earlier than this is that people didn't really have "family names" of any sort in the records much earlier that were passed generation to generation. In some parts of germany, family names were not common even by 1500 CE.
    Matt Tompkins posted notes to soc.genealogy.medieval in 2006 showing that the Pigott family of Little Horwood in Buckinghamshire faked its pedigree in the visitations and descended from peasant families in Great Horwood and Winslow. His thesis sets out
    these peasant family trees as evidenced in the manor court rolls which connect these people back to 1423. There is a gap in the rolls between 1377 and 1423. The same family names do appear in the C14 rolls, but it is impossible to make specific
    connections across the fifty-year gap.

    It is true that member of the Pigott family did achieve standing as gentry and were knighted in the C16, thus failing Joseph Cook’s precondition that there be no knights in the pedigree.

    Tracing a descent from several generations of named peasants is nonetheless rare and may well have mortified gentler descendants. Anyone descended from Jeremy Clarke would share these peasant ancestors or for that matter from Richard Weston, Justice of
    the Common Pleas, whose origins gave rise to heated discussion in 2014.

    Scott Swanson

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  • From Jan Wolfe@21:1/5 to Stewart Baldwin on Fri Jan 21 21:25:32 2022
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 1:14:46 AM UTC-5, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
    before the 1350s or so...
    I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.

    Stewart Baldwin

    Do we disqualify the line if any wife in the line had an ancestor who was a knight or titled?

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  • From Stewart Baldwin@21:1/5 to lancast...@gmail.com on Fri Jan 21 22:55:35 2022
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 3:19:22 AM UTC-6, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
    I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?

    The ancestors I was referring to appeared in a 1457 deed, which mentioned John Moore/More of La More, son of John Moore, and Rose (wife of the younger John Moore), daughter of William Brace of Droitwich. William Brace was apparently a wealthy resident
    of Droitwich, who was (based on arms quartered by his descendants) a cadet member of the Braces of Droitwich, who held the manor of Doverdale, but I don't have proof as to exactly how he descended from that family. Based on the same quarterings, the
    above John Mores were evidently cadets of the Mores of Haddon in Oxfordshire. Since I don't have proof of the parentage of either William Brace or the elder John More, I'm not sure how much further you would have to go to get to a lord of a manor.
    Perhaps only one additional generation, perhaps more. If "not an armiger" is required, then my example won't work, but I didn't see that in the original requirements.

    In any case, as Vance has already pointed out, there are a large number of Common Pleas records available back to the 13th century, and I suspect that a thorough examination of these (perhaps by someone with infinitely more free time on their hands than
    I have) would produce numerous examples.

    Stewart Baldwin

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  • From James Baker@21:1/5 to joe...@gmail.com on Sat Jan 22 06:00:26 2022
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:17:57 PM UTC-5, joe...@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to before
    the 1350s or so...

    --Joe C

    I believe (I haven’t personally done the documentary research) I am descended from a Swiss family named Ringger from Canton Zurich; the progenitor is said to be Uli Ringger, born in the first half of the 14th c.

    I also have a descent from the Maplesden/Mapelsden family of Kent, which included mayors of Maidstone (and also knights later, but not in my direct line). Would this count? If the Kent visitation is to be believed (admittedly a big “IF”), the
    family descends from a Henry Mapelsden who must (according to generational math) have flourished in the mid- to late-14th c.

    Jim+

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  • From Jan Wolfe@21:1/5 to Jan Wolfe on Sat Jan 22 08:49:28 2022
    On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 12:25:34 AM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 1:14:46 AM UTC-5, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
    before the 1350s or so...
    I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Do we disqualify the line if any wife in the line had an ancestor who was a knight or titled?

    Perhaps another example of a "non-titled" English line traceable to the 1400s is my line to Laurence Omer of Ash-next-Sandwich, Kent (https://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/gen/person/g19175.htm). Laurence wrote his will in 1487 and was dead by1489.
    Laurence's younger son, Thomas, wrote his will in 1504. The bequests suggest that Thomas had four sons who were of age and a daughter who had a daughter. This suggests that Laurence was likely born in the first half of the 1400s, say about 1430. One wife
    in the line (Alice Stoughton) may be the great granddaughter of Isabel Culpeper whose ancestors were knights. Alice's great grandfather was Walter Roberts. Walter's mother was Agnes Baker whose grandfather Adam Baker of Ticehurst, Sussex, was born in the
    first half of the 1300s.

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  • From jean-luc soler@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 22 09:05:00 2022
    Bonjour

    La population du Puy Sainte Réparade a pu être reconstitué en quasi totalité jusque 1350, grâce aux notaires subsistant

    Les familles D'origines srictement marseillaise peuvent etre retracée jusque 1328 grace a un fond de notaire exceptionnelement bien conservé.
    Les marseillais d'origine remontent tous a Guillaume RICARD , meunier du moulin d'Allauch en 1250 et Pierre BLANC, boucher à Marseille vers 1230
    http://fbarby.lagenealogie.org/
    JL

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  • From Vance Mead@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 22 09:27:53 2022
    Meanwhile, in Iceland:
    Íslendingabók hefur að geyma upplýsingar um 904.000 einstaklinga, helming allra íbúa Íslands frá landnámi eyjarinnar á 9. öld.

    Or:
    Íslendingabók contains information on 904,000 individuals, half of the total population of Iceland since the settlement of the island in the 9th century

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  • From mike davis@21:1/5 to taf on Sat Jan 22 10:00:07 2022
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:59:03 PM UTC, taf wrote:
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:05:41 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:

    Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wire
    with no documentation.
    This is an oversimplification.
    Also keep in mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keep records.
    This really isn't the case. Most kings were at least minimally literate. Likewise, there was a burgeoning bureaucracy staffed by literate clerks that recorded all kinds of records (court, tax, transactions) up and down (though not all the way down) the
    social ladder. As a result, on a manorial level as well as in the livery companies of cities there were numerous records of commoners. But as you say . . .
    In addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever.

    The furest commoner that anyone in Europe can trace their ancestery
    to withought gaps to the best of my knowlage is Fulbert de Falise. He
    was believed to be a tanner or mortition. His daughter became the
    mistress of Robert I "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy and had the Illegitament child William "the Conqueror" FitzRobert, Duke of Normandy, King of England.
    Fulbert's status is not well documented. At least one scholar has suggested that the historical anecdote that led to him being viewed as a tanner has been misinterpreted, and that he was actually a chamberlain, which would not be a role for a commoner.
    Even were he a commoner, I don't think he was the earliest. Robert of Normandy isn't the first prominent man recorded to have taken a 'commoner' as mistress (even among the Norman Dukes), and some of the pedigrees get us back, at least for a generation,
    to what was basically a tribal setting where it is hard to project these terms of social stratification onto individuals.

    taf

    The Angevins claimed descent from one Tortulf the Woodman [AKA Tertulle]. He doesnt sound that
    noble. And so the queen would also be descended from him. But did he actually exist? I found this
    old post in the archives from 1996 about him:

    nta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
    In article <4r68le$p...@peach.america.net>, "Gerald L. Blanchard"
    <jer...@america.net> wrote:

    snip
    But what about Tertulle? Did he ever exist? Does anyone know
    of any contemporary source that mentions him. I remember reading
    that Ingelger, father of Fulk I, had a father called Tordulf or
    Tortulf the Woodman, who is supposed to have received land
    from Charles the Bald. Has this ever been verified? Even so
    if this Tortulf is Tertulle, was he count of Anjou?

    I don't have these materials to hand, but for some reason Bachrach seemed
    to accept the (late) evidence of the Gesta consulum andegavorum and
    assumed that the named parents of Ingelger were real people--they may not >have been counts (or marquesses), but they probably were not 'woodmen'.
    It was a common device of the twelfth-century comital genealogies to >attribute the line to someone who rose by merit, like a knight errant,
    under the middle or later Carolingians.

    Even if Tertullus and Petronilla are historical personages and the
    testimony of the gesta is to be accepted, there is no known genealogical
    link from Ingelger to Charlemagne, and that was the point of the original >post.

    Nat Taylor
    It is as you say the 12th century _Gesta Consulum_, which tells
    the history of the Angevin dynasty from the 9th century, which
    furnishes these genealogical details.

    In this source, Tertulle was the son of Tortulf, who it says
    was made royal forester at Limelle near Angers by Charles the
    Bald. He rose to favour with the king, and his son Tertulle
    became a _clientela regis_ at court, and received the benefice
    or fief of Chateau-Landon in the Gatinais. But he was not a
    count, only a _miles_. The king arranged his marriage to
    Petronilla relative of Hugo the Abbot (d.886). Their son Ingelgar
    married the grand-daughter of the lord of Amboise, who was also
    the niece of Adalard Archbishop of Tours 875-91, and Raino of
    Angers 880-905. He served first as viscount of Orleans, then
    'prefect of Tours', before becoming Count of Anjou.

    So goes the story. However the _Gesta_ is probably not a
    reliable source for the 9th century, written as it was so far
    removed from the period it describes, and under direction of
    Fulk IV: as you say it is doubtful whether Tertulle or Petronilla
    existed. Their names are unlikely for the 9th century. The
    _gesta_ uses 12th century forms and langauge which would not
    be the case if they were genuinely working from 9th century
    materials or sources. Moreover even Ingelgar was never count
    of Anjou: his son Fulk I only took that title in 929. The
    _gesta_ seeks to legitimise the dynasty's ancestral control
    of Anjou and the Loire valley, by connecting it to Charles
    the Bald and earlier noble families. However in ascribing a
    relationship with Hugo the abbot, it may preserve a tradition
    that the ancesters of Fulk I served in the retinue of the
    9th century Marquis's of Neustria; Robert the Strong (d.866),
    Hugo the Abbot (866-86), Odo (886-8), Robert II (886-922).
    As their deputy, Ingelgar may well have been viscount of
    Orleans and then Tours. While I have yet to locate a Tortulf
    or a Tertulle in the sources of the second half of the ninth
    century, there are several Ingelgars. I shall keep looking.



    And presumably never found any evidence. But surely the oldest verifiable ancestor
    of the Queen is Egbert of Wessex d839 ?

    mike

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  • From Dude@21:1/5 to mike davis on Sat Jan 22 15:12:38 2022
    On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:00:08 PM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:59:03 PM UTC, taf wrote:
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:05:41 AM UTC-8, Dude wrote:

    Before that all the commoners lived their entire lives under the wire with no documentation.
    This is an oversimplification.
    Also keep in mind that almost no one literate at that time anyways (not even the kings until the late middle ages) and only the clergy would keep
    records.
    This really isn't the case. Most kings were at least minimally literate. Likewise, there was a burgeoning bureaucracy staffed by literate clerks that recorded all kinds of records (court, tax, transactions) up and down (though not all the way down)
    the social ladder. As a result, on a manorial level as well as in the livery companies of cities there were numerous records of commoners. But as you say . . .
    In addition many of the records were not preserved well and lost forever.

    The furest commoner that anyone in Europe can trace their ancestery
    to withought gaps to the best of my knowlage is Fulbert de Falise. He
    was believed to be a tanner or mortition. His daughter became the
    mistress of Robert I "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy and had the Illegitament child William "the Conqueror" FitzRobert, Duke of Normandy, King of England.
    Fulbert's status is not well documented. At least one scholar has suggested that the historical anecdote that led to him being viewed as a tanner has been misinterpreted, and that he was actually a chamberlain, which would not be a role for a
    commoner. Even were he a commoner, I don't think he was the earliest. Robert of Normandy isn't the first prominent man recorded to have taken a 'commoner' as mistress (even among the Norman Dukes), and some of the pedigrees get us back, at least for a
    generation, to what was basically a tribal setting where it is hard to project these terms of social stratification onto individuals.

    taf
    The Angevins claimed descent from one Tortulf the Woodman [AKA Tertulle]. He doesnt sound that
    noble. And so the queen would also be descended from him. But did he actually exist? I found this
    old post in the archives from 1996 about him:

    nta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
    In article <4r68le$p...@peach.america.net>, "Gerald L. Blanchard"
    <jer...@america.net> wrote:

    snip
    But what about Tertulle? Did he ever exist? Does anyone know
    of any contemporary source that mentions him. I remember reading
    that Ingelger, father of Fulk I, had a father called Tordulf or
    Tortulf the Woodman, who is supposed to have received land
    from Charles the Bald. Has this ever been verified? Even so
    if this Tortulf is Tertulle, was he count of Anjou?

    I don't have these materials to hand, but for some reason Bachrach seemed >to accept the (late) evidence of the Gesta consulum andegavorum and >assumed that the named parents of Ingelger were real people--they may not >have been counts (or marquesses), but they probably were not 'woodmen'.
    It was a common device of the twelfth-century comital genealogies to >attribute the line to someone who rose by merit, like a knight errant, >under the middle or later Carolingians.

    Even if Tertullus and Petronilla are historical personages and the >testimony of the gesta is to be accepted, there is no known genealogical >link from Ingelger to Charlemagne, and that was the point of the original >post.

    Nat Taylor
    It is as you say the 12th century _Gesta Consulum_, which tells
    the history of the Angevin dynasty from the 9th century, which
    furnishes these genealogical details.

    In this source, Tertulle was the son of Tortulf, who it says
    was made royal forester at Limelle near Angers by Charles the
    Bald. He rose to favour with the king, and his son Tertulle
    became a _clientela regis_ at court, and received the benefice
    or fief of Chateau-Landon in the Gatinais. But he was not a
    count, only a _miles_. The king arranged his marriage to
    Petronilla relative of Hugo the Abbot (d.886). Their son Ingelgar
    married the grand-daughter of the lord of Amboise, who was also
    the niece of Adalard Archbishop of Tours 875-91, and Raino of
    Angers 880-905. He served first as viscount of Orleans, then
    'prefect of Tours', before becoming Count of Anjou.

    So goes the story. However the _Gesta_ is probably not a
    reliable source for the 9th century, written as it was so far
    removed from the period it describes, and under direction of
    Fulk IV: as you say it is doubtful whether Tertulle or Petronilla
    existed. Their names are unlikely for the 9th century. The
    _gesta_ uses 12th century forms and langauge which would not
    be the case if they were genuinely working from 9th century
    materials or sources. Moreover even Ingelgar was never count
    of Anjou: his son Fulk I only took that title in 929. The
    _gesta_ seeks to legitimise the dynasty's ancestral control
    of Anjou and the Loire valley, by connecting it to Charles
    the Bald and earlier noble families. However in ascribing a
    relationship with Hugo the abbot, it may preserve a tradition
    that the ancesters of Fulk I served in the retinue of the
    9th century Marquis's of Neustria; Robert the Strong (d.866),
    Hugo the Abbot (866-86), Odo (886-8), Robert II (886-922).
    As their deputy, Ingelgar may well have been viscount of
    Orleans and then Tours. While I have yet to locate a Tortulf
    or a Tertulle in the sources of the second half of the ninth
    century, there are several Ingelgars. I shall keep looking.



    And presumably never found any evidence. But surely the oldest verifiable ancestor
    of the Queen is Egbert of Wessex d839 ?

    mike
    Arnulf of Mentz b.582 has sufficant documentation to Emperor Charlamange.

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to James Baker on Sat Jan 22 21:14:41 2022
    On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:00:28 AM UTC-8, James Baker wrote:

    I believe (I haven’t personally done the documentary research) I am descended from a
    Swiss family named Ringger from Canton Zurich; the progenitor is said to be Uli Ringger,
    born in the first half of the 14th c.

    My earliest non-English-gentry-linked line is also Swiss, but I didn't get that far back (well, yet at least).

    I also have a descent from the Maplesden/Mapelsden family of Kent, which included mayors
    of Maidstone (and also knights later, but not in my direct line). Would this count? If the Kent
    visitation is to be believed (admittedly a big “IF”), the family descends from a Henry Mapelsden
    who must (according to generational math) have flourished in the mid- to late-14th c.

    This is the classic problem. A pedigree from a much later date for people too obscure to be readily identified in contemporary sources. It is almost certainly not accurate all the way back, given the societal pressure at the time of the visitations to
    extend one's pedigree back, but one has no basis for knowning where it transitions from accurate genealogy to just made-up generations.

    taf

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  • From Doug McDonald@21:1/5 to lancast...@gmail.com on Sat Apr 16 19:01:17 2022
    On 1/21/2022 3:19 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 7:14:46 AM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote: >>
    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
    before the 1350s or so...
    I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.

    Stewart Baldwin

    I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?



    Somebody (Stewart Baldwin?) suggested Fulbert the "tanner". Along that
    line, what about Ketil, father of Aud, and on up in Iceland? I descend
    from her.

    I do the genetic genealogy for the Clan Donald. I would argue that up in Scotland it all depends on what you consider gentry or "knight". IF
    you equate Clan chief to "knight" the we're in that category, but
    numerous of ours are mighty low level for "knight" .... "famous Scots
    Mafia hitman" would be accurate. Even quite a few not so famous. We've
    got the DNA to back it up.

    Doug McDonald

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to dtvmc...@gmail.com on Sat Apr 16 18:10:42 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 5:01:20 PM UTC-7, dtvmc...@gmail.com wrote:

    Somebody (Stewart Baldwin?) suggested Fulbert the "tanner".

    If we are talking the earliest commoner, it is far from clear that Fulbert was a commoner, and he is almost certainly not the earliest. From the same line, the earlier Sprota is reported to have been a captive concubine, so she could well have been a
    commoner; another that comes to mind is the 'servant' by whom Sancho I of Pamplona (d. 925) had a daughter with descendants, though again it is an open question whether she was a true common servant or rather a gentry-level royal attendant. I am sure
    there are other cases like the latter.

    taf

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  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 16 18:46:38 2022
    A quinta-feira, 20 de janeiro de 2022 à(s) 17:10:16 UTC, Dude escreveu:
    I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can trace
    her linage to withought gaps?
    Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.

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  • From Leslie Mahler@21:1/5 to dtvmc...@gmail.com on Sun Apr 17 11:39:51 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 5:01:20 PM UTC-7, dtvmc...@gmail.com wrote:
    On 1/21/2022 3:19 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 7:14:46 AM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to
    before the 1350s or so...
    I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.

    Stewart Baldwin

    I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?

    Somebody (Stewart Baldwin?) suggested Fulbert the "tanner". Along that
    line, what about Ketil, father of Aud, and on up in Iceland? I descend
    from her.

    I do the genetic genealogy for the Clan Donald. I would argue that up in Scotland it all depends on what you consider gentry or "knight". IF
    you equate Clan chief to "knight" the we're in that category, but
    numerous of ours are mighty low level for "knight" .... "famous Scots
    Mafia hitman" would be accurate. Even quite a few not so famous. We've
    got the DNA to back it up.

    Doug McDonald



    What is your line of descent from Ketil and Aud ?

    Leslie

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  • From Stewart Baldwin@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sun May 1 16:22:04 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.

    One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
    documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.

    Stewart Baldwin

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  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 1 18:33:50 2022
    A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
    One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
    documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?

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  • From Stewart Baldwin@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Thu May 5 21:42:45 2022
    On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
    One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
    documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?

    A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:

    David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.

    David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (
    Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.

    I don't know whether or not online versions are available.

    Stewart Baldwin

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to Stewart Baldwin on Fri May 6 00:37:11 2022
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 9:42:46 PM UTC-7, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
    One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
    documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
    A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:

    David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.

    David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (
    Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.

    I don't know whether or not online versions are available.

    I am not finding either, but I did find an abstract by another scholar who in part is building off the first Dumville - it is a conference proceeding abstract, so not peer reviewed and of necessity the conclusions taken with a grain of salt, but it at
    least illuminates the potential problem with the Fergus narrative.

    https://www.academia.edu/7727811/Dauvit_Broun_The_earliest_appearance_of_Fergus_M%C3%B3r_mac_Eirc_in_Scottish_History_Abstract_

    In short, he concludes that the name Fergus Mor mac Eirc was 'borrowed' from an unrelated Irish monastic foundation legend and most likely attached as ancestor of the Scottish royal pedigree in the time of Kenneth mac Alpin as an expresson of that king's
    political and immediate familial alliances with the Ui Neill kings.

    taf

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  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 6 08:17:45 2022
    A sexta-feira, 6 de maio de 2022 à(s) 05:42:46 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
    On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
    One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
    documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
    A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:

    David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.

    David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (
    Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.

    I don't know whether or not online versions are available.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Thanks for this, Stewart.

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  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 6 08:19:02 2022
    A sexta-feira, 6 de maio de 2022 à(s) 05:42:46 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
    On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
    One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-
    documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
    A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:

    David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.

    David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (
    Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.

    I don't know whether or not online versions are available.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to Stewart Baldwin on Sun May 8 18:12:18 2022
    On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 5:49:38 PM UTC-7, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

    Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?
    The problem is that the evidence is too ambiguous to have any confidence in either direction. The Irish origin is likely enough, but even then there is no reason to believe in a migration led by Fergus. A couple of other relevant articles are the
    following:


    Here is another on this general topic. I am unfamiliar with the author, but it does appear to take a critical scholarly approach:

    Sergey Fyodorov, "The Eircs and the foundation legend of Scottish Dál Riata" in ВЕСТНИК САНКТ-ПЕТЕРБУРГСКОГО УНИВЕРСИТЕТА ИСТОРИЯ Т. 62. Вып. 1 January 2017, 57-68 (fortunately, though in a Russian
    historical journal, the text is in Englsh, and can be viewed in full online)

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319138236_The_Eircs_and_the_foundation_legend_of_Scottish_Dal_Riata

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  • From Stewart Baldwin@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sun May 8 17:49:37 2022
    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

    Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?

    The problem is that the evidence is too ambiguous to have any confidence in either direction. The Irish origin is likely enough, but even then there is no reason to believe in a migration led by Fergus. A couple of other relevant articles are the
    following:

    Richard Sharpe, "The Thriving of Dalriada" in Simon Taylor, ed., Kings, Clerics, and Chronicles in Scotland, 500-1297. Essays in honour of Marjorie Ogilvie Anderson on the occasion of her 90th birthday (Four Courts Press, 2000), 47-61.

    Alex Woolf, Ancient Kindred? Dál Riata and the Cruthin (unpublished, ca. 2001).

    I believe that Woolf's article is available on Academia.com. I don't know about the Sharpe article.

    Stewart Baldwin

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  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 9 04:38:54 2022
    A segunda-feira, 9 de maio de 2022 à(s) 01:49:38 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

    Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?
    The problem is that the evidence is too ambiguous to have any confidence in either direction. The Irish origin is likely enough, but even then there is no reason to believe in a migration led by Fergus. A couple of other relevant articles are the
    following:

    Richard Sharpe, "The Thriving of Dalriada" in Simon Taylor, ed., Kings, Clerics, and Chronicles in Scotland, 500-1297. Essays in honour of Marjorie Ogilvie Anderson on the occasion of her 90th birthday (Four Courts Press, 2000), 47-61.

    Alex Woolf, Ancient Kindred? Dál Riata and the Cruthin (unpublished, ca. 2001).

    I believe that Woolf's article is available on Academia.com. I don't know about the Sharpe article.

    Stewart Baldwin
    Thanks for this, Stewart. As https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata#Origins says, the theory of an Irish origin for Dál Riata was disputed by archaeologist Dr Ewan Campbell in his academic paper Were the Scots Irish?. However, looking more
    closely, the Wikipedia page also says this thesis has not withstood academic scrutiny. Woolf's article is cited.

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