• Re: Jocelyn again

    From Jacqueline Schenke@21:1/5 to Murray Lynn on Wed Jan 19 16:52:13 2022
    On Sunday, 7 January 2007 at 23:18:03 UTC+10:30, Murray Lynn wrote:
    Now that Tim and Leo have convincingly shown that the Jocelyn family
    history claiming Joscelin of Sempringham, father of St Gilbert, as their ancestor is incorrect (and have given me vast amounts of information on
    the Jocelyn family tree - thanks again guys!!), I have been wondering if
    I can identify the correct Jocelyn ancestor in the Domesday Book.
    The first firm location of the Jocelyn family, is Hyde Hall near Sawbridgeworth in Essex as early as about 1250 (possibly earlier
    according to one account). Their early marriages were to the "Battell (Battyle) family of Ongar" ca, 1226 - who appear to have be from
    Stapleford Abbots - and the Hydes of Hyde Hall ca. 1250.
    Assuming that they lived somewhere in the region of Sawbridgeworth ca
    1086 and that their name was one of the many Jocelyn variants leads me
    to Goscelin the Lorimer of Becontree in Essex.
    Goscelin had the manor of Little Ilford - now Manor Park - at Ilford in London on the Roding River. His land was surrounded by church owned properties at Barking, East & West Ham etc.
    Little Ilford is only a few miles by river to Stapleford Abbott and
    assuming the river was a natural highway, it would make the then
    inhabitants of the Battell estate one of his nearest neighbours
    (especially since the direct neighbours were presumably religious establishments). Hide Hall is only a few more miles up the river -
    about 20 miles from Little Ilford.
    While this is very circumstantial evidence, I feel that Goscelin is a
    strong contender.
    Questions:
    - Does anyone know anything about Goscelin the Lorimer?
    - A lorimer appears to be a metal worker, given that he was some sort of nobleman or man of influence would he have been the King's armourer or similar?
    - Does a location near to London mean he was generally further up the
    pecking order in Williams court? Glancing at the lists of names in
    Domesday, those closer to London appear to have larger estates and 'seem
    more important'.
    - Is anything known about the Battells or the families of the earlier
    Jocelyn marriages (1200 - 1100): Chastelyn and possibly Threckenholm, Bissett, Goushold and Fleming - in particular where they lived?
    I have written up a lot of this at Joscelyn Notes <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/16_Josselyn/FT_Joscelin_Notes_On_Early_History.html>
    - note that this is still a work in progress but contains most of the information I have been gathering.

    --
    Kind Regards
    Murray
    Christchurch
    New Zealand
    Web Site <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/>
    Hi all, I am I believe a descendant of Ralph Josselyn and Marie Bright. If anyone is interested in viewing my lineage of Josselyn's throughout Essex, England, let me know. :)

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  • From achesonrd@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Jacqueline Schenke on Sat Jan 22 11:48:56 2022
    On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 7:52:15 PM UTC-5, Jacqueline Schenke wrote:
    On Sunday, 7 January 2007 at 23:18:03 UTC+10:30, Murray Lynn wrote:
    Now that Tim and Leo have convincingly shown that the Jocelyn family history claiming Joscelin of Sempringham, father of St Gilbert, as their ancestor is incorrect (and have given me vast amounts of information on
    the Jocelyn family tree - thanks again guys!!), I have been wondering if
    I can identify the correct Jocelyn ancestor in the Domesday Book.
    The first firm location of the Jocelyn family, is Hyde Hall near Sawbridgeworth in Essex as early as about 1250 (possibly earlier
    according to one account). Their early marriages were to the "Battell (Battyle) family of Ongar" ca, 1226 - who appear to have be from
    Stapleford Abbots - and the Hydes of Hyde Hall ca. 1250.
    Assuming that they lived somewhere in the region of Sawbridgeworth ca
    1086 and that their name was one of the many Jocelyn variants leads me
    to Goscelin the Lorimer of Becontree in Essex.
    Goscelin had the manor of Little Ilford - now Manor Park - at Ilford in London on the Roding River. His land was surrounded by church owned properties at Barking, East & West Ham etc.
    Little Ilford is only a few miles by river to Stapleford Abbott and assuming the river was a natural highway, it would make the then inhabitants of the Battell estate one of his nearest neighbours
    (especially since the direct neighbours were presumably religious establishments). Hide Hall is only a few more miles up the river -
    about 20 miles from Little Ilford.
    While this is very circumstantial evidence, I feel that Goscelin is a strong contender.
    Questions:
    - Does anyone know anything about Goscelin the Lorimer?
    - A lorimer appears to be a metal worker, given that he was some sort of nobleman or man of influence would he have been the King's armourer or similar?
    - Does a location near to London mean he was generally further up the pecking order in Williams court? Glancing at the lists of names in Domesday, those closer to London appear to have larger estates and 'seem more important'.
    - Is anything known about the Battells or the families of the earlier Jocelyn marriages (1200 - 1100): Chastelyn and possibly Threckenholm, Bissett, Goushold and Fleming - in particular where they lived?
    I have written up a lot of this at Joscelyn Notes <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/16_Josselyn/FT_Joscelin_Notes_On_Early_History.html>
    - note that this is still a work in progress but contains most of the information I have been gathering.

    --
    Kind Regards
    Murray
    Christchurch
    New Zealand
    Web Site <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/>
    Hi all, I am I believe a descendant of Ralph Josselyn and Marie Bright. If anyone is interested in viewing my lineage of Josselyn's throughout Essex, England, let me know. :)


    I too am descended from this couple through the immigrant Thomas and wife Rebecca.
    My line runs via Josselyn, Nichols, Cushing, Baker, Ford, Harris, Chase, Carmichael (my maternal grandmother).

    It's a line I've otherwise not yet had a good opportunity to research. My understanding of the ancestral lineage is from the NEHGR, which I haven't verified.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=1soUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA250#v=onepage&q&f=false Have you found it to be more or less accurate?

    Thanks,
    Richard

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