On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 10:58:00 AM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:Devereux and Anne Barre. Here is what I have found:
Unfortunately there is no way around this... how do you correct the record of a family that has had its pedigree reproduced incorrectly in so many secondary sources? The parents of Sir Walter Devereux, who married Agnes Crophull, were not William
name Walter or it naming his son. The Close Rolls for 1382 must be correct, and Sir Walter, Knt./MP was born of Walter and not William. Somewhere along the way, a generation was skipped and HOP is one of the few sources that I have seen that has it right.CLOSE ROLLS
As recorded in the Close Rolls [H.C. Maxwell Lyte, ed. Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II, vol. 2 (1920)] on page 218 and states the following:
Oct. 25, 1382, Westminster.
"Walter Devereux, knight, Walter his son, John Devereux knight, and John de Bureley knight to John de Crophulle knight. Recognisance for 400l., to be levied etc. in Heretfordshire."
https://archive.org/details/calendarofclos02grea/page/218/mode/1up?
Close Rolls source does in fact name Walter as the son of Walter Devereux and not William, and they are accompanied by a knight in the service of John de Crophull, the grandfather of Agnes Crophull, who was still alive at that time in 1382.
HISTORY OF PARLIAMENT ONLINE
"son and heir of Walter Devereux, Knt., by his wife, Maud. They had four sons, Walter, Esq., John, Richard, and Thomas, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret."
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/devereux-sir-walter-1402
TIMELINE (myself)
Timeline I have for this line relevant to the issue:
1376 (ca.) William Devereux, supposed father of Walter, dies. (CP)
1382 Sir Walter, Knt. and son Sir Walter, Knt/MP. record (CR)
1387 (ca.) Sir Walter, Knt/MP's son Walter is born.
William Devereux died about 1376 so it is impossible for him to have accompanied his supposed son in 1382. The youngest Walter wasn't born until at least 1386, so he wasn't even alive in 1382. The Close Rolls cannot have made an error regarding the
Therefore, as of now, this is what I am now working with to sort out:
William Devereux, m. Anne Barre
Walter Devereux, Knt., m. Maud?
Walter Devereux, Knt. and MP for Herefordshire, m. Agnes Crophull
I have yet to find a source from HOP where Maud, wife of the father Walter, is recorded.
I hope this was clear and this is not an easy task to sort out this mess in full!
Darrell E. LarocqueCPR, 1367-70, p. 367, provided by HOP, does indeed name Maud as wife of Walter the father in 1370:
"Walter Deveros [sic] and Maud, his wife, hold for the life of Maud of the inheritance of the said John so of Henry [Le Frene]", 10 February 1370.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081105&view=1up&seq=379&skin=2021
Darrell E. Larocque
On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 10:58:00 AM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:Devereux and Anne Barre. Here is what I have found:
Unfortunately there is no way around this... how do you correct the record of a family that has had its pedigree reproduced incorrectly in so many secondary sources? The parents of Sir Walter Devereux, who married Agnes Crophull, were not William
name Walter or it naming his son. The Close Rolls for 1382 must be correct, and Sir Walter, Knt./MP was born of Walter and not William. Somewhere along the way, a generation was skipped and HOP is one of the few sources that I have seen that has it right.CLOSE ROLLS
As recorded in the Close Rolls [H.C. Maxwell Lyte, ed. Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II, vol. 2 (1920)] on page 218 and states the following:
Oct. 25, 1382, Westminster.
"Walter Devereux, knight, Walter his son, John Devereux knight, and John de Bureley knight to John de Crophulle knight. Recognisance for 400l., to be levied etc. in Heretfordshire."
https://archive.org/details/calendarofclos02grea/page/218/mode/1up?
Close Rolls source does in fact name Walter as the son of Walter Devereux and not William, and they are accompanied by a knight in the service of John de Crophull, the grandfather of Agnes Crophull, who was still alive at that time in 1382.
HISTORY OF PARLIAMENT ONLINE
"son and heir of Walter Devereux, Knt., by his wife, Maud. They had four sons, Walter, Esq., John, Richard, and Thomas, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret."
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/devereux-sir-walter-1402
TIMELINE (myself)
Timeline I have for this line relevant to the issue:
1376 (ca.) William Devereux, supposed father of Walter, dies. (CP)
1382 Sir Walter, Knt. and son Sir Walter, Knt/MP. record (CR)
1387 (ca.) Sir Walter, Knt/MP's son Walter is born.
William Devereux died about 1376 so it is impossible for him to have accompanied his supposed son in 1382. The youngest Walter wasn't born until at least 1386, so he wasn't even alive in 1382. The Close Rolls cannot have made an error regarding the
Therefore, as of now, this is what I am now working with to sort out:
William Devereux, m. Anne Barre
Walter Devereux, Knt., m. Maud?
Walter Devereux, Knt. and MP for Herefordshire, m. Agnes Crophull
I have yet to find a source from HOP where Maud, wife of the father Walter, is recorded.
I hope this was clear and this is not an easy task to sort out this mess in full!
Darrell E. LarocqueCPR, 1367-70, p. 367, provided by HOP, does indeed name Maud as wife of Walter the father in 1370:
"Walter Deveros [sic] and Maud, his wife, hold for the life of Maud of the inheritance of the said John so of Henry [Le Frene]", 10 February 1370.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081105&view=1up&seq=379&skin=2021
Darrell E. Larocque
Unfortunately there is no way around this... how do you correct the record of a family that has had its pedigree reproduced incorrectly in so many secondary sources? The parents of Sir Walter Devereux, who married Agnes Crophull, were not WilliamDevereux and Anne Barre. Here is what I have found:
CLOSE ROLLSname Walter or it naming his son. The Close Rolls for 1382 must be correct, and Sir Walter, Knt./MP was born of Walter and not William. Somewhere along the way, a generation was skipped and HOP is one of the few sources that I have seen that has it right.
As recorded in the Close Rolls [H.C. Maxwell Lyte, ed. Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II, vol. 2 (1920)] on page 218 and states the following:
Oct. 25, 1382, Westminster.
"Walter Devereux, knight, Walter his son, John Devereux knight, and John de Bureley knight to John de Crophulle knight. Recognisance for 400l., to be levied etc. in Heretfordshire."
https://archive.org/details/calendarofclos02grea/page/218/mode/1up?
Close Rolls source does in fact name Walter as the son of Walter Devereux and not William, and they are accompanied by a knight in the service of John de Crophull, the grandfather of Agnes Crophull, who was still alive at that time in 1382.
HISTORY OF PARLIAMENT ONLINE
"son and heir of Walter Devereux, Knt., by his wife, Maud. They had four sons, Walter, Esq., John, Richard, and Thomas, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret."
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/devereux-sir-walter-1402
TIMELINE (myself)
Timeline I have for this line relevant to the issue:
1376 (ca.) William Devereux, supposed father of Walter, dies. (CP)
1382 Sir Walter, Knt. and son Sir Walter, Knt/MP. record (CR)
1387 (ca.) Sir Walter, Knt/MP's son Walter is born.
William Devereux died about 1376 so it is impossible for him to have accompanied his supposed son in 1382. The youngest Walter wasn't born until at least 1386, so he wasn't even alive in 1382. The Close Rolls cannot have made an error regarding the
Therefore, as of now, this is what I am now working with to sort out:
William Devereux, m. Anne Barre
Walter Devereux, Knt., m. Maud?
Walter Devereux, Knt. and MP for Herefordshire, m. Agnes Crophull
I have yet to find a source from HOP where Maud, wife of the father Walter, is recorded.
I hope this was clear and this is not an easy task to sort out this mess in full!
Darrell E. Larocque
On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 8:22:38 AM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:Devereux and Anne Barre. Here is what I have found:
On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 10:58:00 AM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
Unfortunately there is no way around this... how do you correct the record of a family that has had its pedigree reproduced incorrectly in so many secondary sources? The parents of Sir Walter Devereux, who married Agnes Crophull, were not William
name Walter or it naming his son. The Close Rolls for 1382 must be correct, and Sir Walter, Knt./MP was born of Walter and not William. Somewhere along the way, a generation was skipped and HOP is one of the few sources that I have seen that has it right.CLOSE ROLLS
As recorded in the Close Rolls [H.C. Maxwell Lyte, ed. Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II, vol. 2 (1920)] on page 218 and states the following:
Oct. 25, 1382, Westminster.
"Walter Devereux, knight, Walter his son, John Devereux knight, and John de Bureley knight to John de Crophulle knight. Recognisance for 400l., to be levied etc. in Heretfordshire."
https://archive.org/details/calendarofclos02grea/page/218/mode/1up?
Close Rolls source does in fact name Walter as the son of Walter Devereux and not William, and they are accompanied by a knight in the service of John de Crophull, the grandfather of Agnes Crophull, who was still alive at that time in 1382.
HISTORY OF PARLIAMENT ONLINE
"son and heir of Walter Devereux, Knt., by his wife, Maud. They had four sons, Walter, Esq., John, Richard, and Thomas, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret."
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/devereux-sir-walter-1402
TIMELINE (myself)
Timeline I have for this line relevant to the issue:
1376 (ca.) William Devereux, supposed father of Walter, dies. (CP)
1382 Sir Walter, Knt. and son Sir Walter, Knt/MP. record (CR)
1387 (ca.) Sir Walter, Knt/MP's son Walter is born.
William Devereux died about 1376 so it is impossible for him to have accompanied his supposed son in 1382. The youngest Walter wasn't born until at least 1386, so he wasn't even alive in 1382. The Close Rolls cannot have made an error regarding the
Therefore, as of now, this is what I am now working with to sort out:
William Devereux, m. Anne Barre
Walter Devereux, Knt., m. Maud?
Walter Devereux, Knt. and MP for Herefordshire, m. Agnes Crophull
I have yet to find a source from HOP where Maud, wife of the father Walter, is recorded.
I hope this was clear and this is not an easy task to sort out this mess in full!
Darrell E. LarocqueCPR, 1367-70, p. 367, provided by HOP, does indeed name Maud as wife of Walter the father in 1370:
"Walter Deveros [sic] and Maud, his wife, hold for the life of Maud of the inheritance of the said John so of Henry [Le Frene]", 10 February 1370.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081105&view=1up&seq=379&skin=2021
Darrell E. LarocqueCould yo post the exact language from CP that states that William died *in* 1376?
Walter /Devereux/ of Bodenham
adult by about 1331 when he witnessed a grant
who
d.s.p.
Abt 1359
son of Stephen /Devereux/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Devereux_of_Bodenham_and_Burghope
might be the one who was hunting in 1357
On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 8:22:38 AM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
Timeline I have for this line relevant to the issue:
1376 (ca.) William Devereux, supposed father of Walter, dies. (CP)
1382 Sir Walter, Knt. and son Sir Walter, Knt/MP. record (CR)
1387 (ca.) Sir Walter, Knt/MP's son Walter is born.
Could yo post the exact language from CP that states that William died *in* 1376?Darrell didn't say that William "died *in* 1376" - he said "1376 (ca.)". And CP 4:296 says that William "d. in 1376/7". That's "ca" enough for me.
On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 8:29:41 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 8:22:38 AM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
Timeline I have for this line relevant to the issue:
1376 (ca.) William Devereux, supposed father of Walter, dies. (CP) 1382 Sir Walter, Knt. and son Sir Walter, Knt/MP. record (CR)
1387 (ca.) Sir Walter, Knt/MP's son Walter is born.
Could yo post the exact language from CP that states that William died *in* 1376?Darrell didn't say that William "died *in* 1376" - he said "1376 (ca.)". And CP 4:296 says that William "d. in 1376/7". That's "ca" enough for me.
John,learned a lot more!
Since I posted this, I have now found three different sources that have father and son and Walter and Walter but thank you nonetheless!
I just cannot figure why his father Walter would just disappear after 1383... no will, IPM or burial indication... I figure that the inheritance offered by his wife Agnes Crophull was FAR more substantial and he decided to pursue it only. I have
Darrell E. Larocque
Two records which substantiate the correct parents, Sir Walter Devereux 'the Elder' and Maud, and the son, Sir Walter Devereux 'The Younger' and Agnes:fitz Herbert.
(1) The establishment of the age of Walter Devereux, son of Stephen Devereux of Bodenham and uncle of Sir Walter 'the Elder'. The 11 May 1359, his uncle Walter confirmed (himself aged "50 years or more") the age of Edmund, son and heir of Reynold le
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol 10, 26-34 Edward III: 1352-1361', p. 433, Record no. 531.Walter son of Stephen is crucial as is his death, and his age of over 50 in 1359 (1) means that he would have been dead (as the Cooke source states 1359 Cooke may have taken this as his last record instead of his death), which I still cannot locate
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.l0066756867&view=1up&seq=475&skin=2021&q1=Walter
(2) The 12 July 1378 which is a grant of special grace that was given by King Richard II to Sir Walter and his heirs of a weekly market on Tuesdays at their manor of Bodenham and an annual fair there for both the vigil and morrow of The Assumption.
Great Britain. ''Calendar of the Charter Rolls: 15 Edward III to 5 Henry V. A.D, vol. 5: 1341-1417''. (London: Hereford Times, Ltd., 1916), p. 248.
https://archive.org/details/calendarofcharte05greauoft/page/248/mode/1up?q=Deveros&view=theater
SUMMARY
The only other Walter Devereux within the timeline for the subject Sir Walter Devereux 'the Younger' and Agnes Crophull independent of a possible (now probable) father was Walter Devereux, son of Stephen Devereux (d. 1350). Establishing the age of this
So (2) is important because it refers to "Sir Walter of Bodenham" in July 1378 which is different than any other reference to Sir Walter who now I know is 'the Elder' because of the father and son references I have presented here previously. The manorof Bodenham passed to Sir Walter, who must be 'the Elder' without any documentation. This explains the conflation of the two Sir Walters and as there is also no IPM or death indicator for Sir Walter 'the Elder', his existence was seemingly lost to
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/devereux-sir-walter-1402
I have documented every single instance of the Walters on these two profiles. Sir Walter 'the Younger''s profile is still full of some of the older presumptions, so please ignore those odd bits.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Devereux-779 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Devereux-43
Darrell E. Larocque
On Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 12:39:31 PM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:fitz Herbert.
Two records which substantiate the correct parents, Sir Walter Devereux 'the Elder' and Maud, and the son, Sir Walter Devereux 'The Younger' and Agnes:
(1) The establishment of the age of Walter Devereux, son of Stephen Devereux of Bodenham and uncle of Sir Walter 'the Elder'. The 11 May 1359, his uncle Walter confirmed (himself aged "50 years or more") the age of Edmund, son and heir of Reynold le
this Walter son of Stephen is crucial as is his death, and his age of over 50 in 1359 (1) means that he would have been dead (as the Cooke source states 1359 Cooke may have taken this as his last record instead of his death), which I still cannot locateCalendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol 10, 26-34 Edward III: 1352-1361', p. 433, Record no. 531.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.l0066756867&view=1up&seq=475&skin=2021&q1=Walter
(2) The 12 July 1378 which is a grant of special grace that was given by King Richard II to Sir Walter and his heirs of a weekly market on Tuesdays at their manor of Bodenham and an annual fair there for both the vigil and morrow of The Assumption.
Great Britain. ''Calendar of the Charter Rolls: 15 Edward III to 5 Henry V. A.D, vol. 5: 1341-1417''. (London: Hereford Times, Ltd., 1916), p. 248.
https://archive.org/details/calendarofcharte05greauoft/page/248/mode/1up?q=Deveros&view=theater
SUMMARY
The only other Walter Devereux within the timeline for the subject Sir Walter Devereux 'the Younger' and Agnes Crophull independent of a possible (now probable) father was Walter Devereux, son of Stephen Devereux (d. 1350). Establishing the age of
manor of Bodenham passed to Sir Walter, who must be 'the Elder' without any documentation. This explains the conflation of the two Sir Walters and as there is also no IPM or death indicator for Sir Walter 'the Elder', his existence was seemingly lost toSo (2) is important because it refers to "Sir Walter of Bodenham" in July 1378 which is different than any other reference to Sir Walter who now I know is 'the Elder' because of the father and son references I have presented here previously. The
Devereux would not be unlikely. Anyway, I had the follow SGM post in my file that you have probably seen, but if not might be of interest.http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/devereux-sir-walter-1402
I have documented every single instance of the Walters on these two profiles. Sir Walter 'the Younger''s profile is still full of some of the older presumptions, so please ignore those odd bits.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Devereux-779 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Devereux-43
Darrell E. LarocqueI am trying to see if Ann alleged wife of Roger Vaugn was a Devereux, maybe a sister of Sir Walter Devereux who married Agnes Crophill. Relationships among subsequent generations of Vaugns, Herberts, Harewells and Devereuxs, suggest her being a
From: Richard Borthwick (rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au)
Subject: DEVEREUX
View: Complete Thread (2 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 1999/07/05
...
8 Sir Walter DEVEREUX, of Weobley, Herefs. Died 25 Jun 1402.
[CIPM 15:958-962; *History of Parliament: The House of Commons,
1386-1421* (HMSO, 1992) 2:783-784]
9 Agnes de CROPHULL. Born 1371/1372 in Chabbenore, Herefs, England.
Died 3 Feb 1436. Occupation Heir of her grandparents.
Agnes was heir of her grandfather Sir John Crophull.
[CIPM 15:958-962; *History of Parliament: The House of Commons,
1386-1421* (HMSO, 1992) 2:783-784, 3:716, 718, 719]
…
16 Sir Walter # DEVEREUX, of Bodenham. Died After 1382.
Sir Walter may have been the brother of John, lord Devereux
(d.1393). [CP IV:296 and note (d); *History of Parliament: The House of Commons, 1386-1421* (HMSO, 1992) 2:783]
17 Maud.
[*History of Parliament: The House of Commons, 1386-1421* (HMSO,
1992) 2:783]
32 William DEVEREUX, of Bodenham, Herefs. Died 1376/1377.
[CP IV:296; *History of Parliament: The House of Commons, 1386-1421*
(HMSO, 1992) 2:783]
The last part of ''A History of the Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire'' on page 31 which specifically addresses the white hart I mentioned above.alabaster ; slab, on which the effigy of Sir Walter was incised, was broken into fragments at the restoration of the church in 1834."
"in the windows of which were to be seen the arms of Devereux and the cognizance of Richard II.—the white hart lodged—together with the arms of that monarch and those of Delabere, Lucy, and Brydges. All these memorials have now perished; the
Darrell E. Larocque
Sysop: | Keyop |
---|---|
Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
Users: | 296 |
Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
Uptime: | 63:27:09 |
Calls: | 6,654 |
Files: | 12,200 |
Messages: | 5,331,699 |