On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:48:13 AM UTC+1, smittyi...@gmail.com wrote:
As one of the people contacted by Christopher before posting here I give some handy links:
1. Round's article can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE222605&from=fhd
2. Copinger's book can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE1916532&from=fhd
3. The wikitree profile for the person who is in my opinion the first critical link to check is here, and gives a bit more information than Round does: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smyth-471
I think the first question is whether this man really changed his name from Carrington to Smith, after the fall of Richard II.
I think the key piece of evidence is the supposedly Middle English letter which Round thinks is obviously fake. (And I agree with him.) A transcript can be found in Copinger, and excerpts in Round.
(I think it is uncontroversial to say that Round's way of writing does lead to lots of temptation to chase false leads, and not home in on whatever is most critical. taf's points are well taken.)
Best Regards
Andrew
On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:15:04 AM UTC-5, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:information been verified?
On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:48:13 AM UTC+1, smittyi...@gmail.com wrote:
As one of the people contacted by Christopher before posting here I give some handy links:
1. Round's article can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE222605&from=fhd
2. Copinger's book can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE1916532&from=fhd
3. The wikitree profile for the person who is in my opinion the first critical link to check is here, and gives a bit more information than Round does: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smyth-471
I think the first question is whether this man really changed his name from Carrington to Smith, after the fall of Richard II.
I think the key piece of evidence is the supposedly Middle English letter which Round thinks is obviously fake. (And I agree with him.) A transcript can be found in Copinger, and excerpts in Round.
(I think it is uncontroversial to say that Round's way of writing does lead to lots of temptation to chase false leads, and not home in on whatever is most critical. taf's points are well taken.)
Best Regards
Andrew
Hello,
Coming back to this thread, I would like to confirm or deny the line of Caringtons leading to Emma Carington, who appears as wife of one of the Randall Brereton of Malpas.
One of the published visitations of Cheshire contains a chart for the Carryngtons, though short and lacking the names of the wives,
The Visitation of Cheshire in the Year 1580 By Robert Glover, William Fellows, Thomas Benolt, Sir Thomas Chaloner · 1882.
It lists the following
1 William, given, father of
2. William, father of
3. George, father of several sons:
3.1 sir John, father of two sons
3.1.1 Hamlet
3.1.2 Thomas
and one daughter
3.1.3 Emme, ux. Randoll Brereton (father of Thomas Brereton, father of Urian Brereton)
3.2 Nicholas
3.3 Ralph
3.4 William (who continues the line)
and finally
3.5 Edmond
Copinger's book shows Isabel de Beeston as wife of sir John (p. 84, and others)
The same book, on page 62 and others, brings Mathilde le Wareyn as the wife (second to the author) of George. According to Copinger, she was daughter of Nicholas le Wareyn , lord of the manor of Stockport, son and heir of sir John de Wareyn Has this
The same book, on pages and 42 and 43, shows one Matilde de Arderne as wife of the second William of this line. She is presented as daughter of Peter Arderne, second son of sir John Ardene.down into the 1500s.
At least one Matilda, widow of William of Carryngton, knight appears in a surviving document listed through the National Archives:
Reference: SC 8/40/1959
Description:
Petitioners: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight.
Name(s): Caryngton (Carrington),
Matilda Addressees: King and council.
Nature of request: Caryngton states that her husband bought from the justice and chamberlain of Chester the wardship and marriage of Thomas Weaver, etc...
Is there proof that Emme was in fact the daughter of sir John?
Copinger says on page 84 that her parents married in 1417, and in other pages that her father died in 1452 and her mother in 1455.
I have been trying to get some dates on these lines since there is some information of one Alice Brereton, married to William de Sandford of the Lea, living in 1508. She might be one of Emma's daughters. Alice is claimed to have had female descendants
J. Sardina
On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 9:03:43 PM UTC-5, J. Sardina wrote:information been verified?
On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:15:04 AM UTC-5, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:48:13 AM UTC+1, smittyi...@gmail.com wrote:
As one of the people contacted by Christopher before posting here I give some handy links:
1. Round's article can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE222605&from=fhd
2. Copinger's book can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE1916532&from=fhd
3. The wikitree profile for the person who is in my opinion the first critical link to check is here, and gives a bit more information than Round does: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smyth-471
I think the first question is whether this man really changed his name from Carrington to Smith, after the fall of Richard II.
I think the key piece of evidence is the supposedly Middle English letter which Round thinks is obviously fake. (And I agree with him.) A transcript can be found in Copinger, and excerpts in Round.
(I think it is uncontroversial to say that Round's way of writing does lead to lots of temptation to chase false leads, and not home in on whatever is most critical. taf's points are well taken.)
Best Regards
Andrew
Hello,
Coming back to this thread, I would like to confirm or deny the line of Caringtons leading to Emma Carington, who appears as wife of one of the Randall Brereton of Malpas.
One of the published visitations of Cheshire contains a chart for the Carryngtons, though short and lacking the names of the wives,
The Visitation of Cheshire in the Year 1580 By Robert Glover, William Fellows, Thomas Benolt, Sir Thomas Chaloner · 1882.
It lists the following
1 William, given, father of
2. William, father of
3. George, father of several sons:
3.1 sir John, father of two sons
3.1.1 Hamlet
3.1.2 Thomas
and one daughter
3.1.3 Emme, ux. Randoll Brereton (father of Thomas Brereton, father of Urian Brereton)
3.2 Nicholas
3.3 Ralph
3.4 William (who continues the line)
and finally
3.5 Edmond
Copinger's book shows Isabel de Beeston as wife of sir John (p. 84, and others)
The same book, on page 62 and others, brings Mathilde le Wareyn as the wife (second to the author) of George. According to Copinger, she was daughter of Nicholas le Wareyn , lord of the manor of Stockport, son and heir of sir John de Wareyn Has this
descendants down into the 1500s.The same book, on pages and 42 and 43, shows one Matilde de Arderne as wife of the second William of this line. She is presented as daughter of Peter Arderne, second son of sir John Ardene.
At least one Matilda, widow of William of Carryngton, knight appears in a surviving document listed through the National Archives:
Reference: SC 8/40/1959
Description:
Petitioners: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight.
Name(s): Caryngton (Carrington),
Matilda Addressees: King and council.
Nature of request: Caryngton states that her husband bought from the justice and chamberlain of Chester the wardship and marriage of Thomas Weaver, etc...
Is there proof that Emme was in fact the daughter of sir John?
Copinger says on page 84 that her parents married in 1417, and in other pages that her father died in 1452 and her mother in 1455.
I have been trying to get some dates on these lines since there is some information of one Alice Brereton, married to William de Sandford of the Lea, living in 1508. She might be one of Emma's daughters. Alice is claimed to have had female
buying the volume just for this one lead, not least because Roberts didn't typically due detailed primary source research on many of the families in his works, but largely relied on secondary sources.J. SardinaHi J.,
For what it's worth, Roberts' RD500 has at least one line that runs through Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington, apparently.
(https://books.google.com/books?id=-k5lAAAAMAAJ&q=carrington+brereton+ormerod&dq=carrington+brereton+ormerod&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUor6Jm-L0AhUejYkEHYfUDnMQ6AF6BAgCEAI)
Unfortunately, RD500 has not been available through Ancestry Library Edition for some time, or I would offer to send you the page images off-list. I would try to get your hands on a copy through inter-library loan if possible--it's certainly not worth
However, royal ancestry may not be present, at least as claimed. Certainly the line as given by Douglas Richardson in Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd ed. (2011), pp.322-3, which runs Ipsontes->Swinnerton->Holland. I'm not sure, but I suspect Gary Boyd Robert's brief account in RD500 relies at least in part on Richardson's PA. The connection between the Brereton and Ipstones families appears sound, as does the connection between the connection between Ipstones and Swinnerton. The problem is that, although
Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" inThe Genealogist, Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you. Boyer also cites the Visitation of Cheshire,
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1028677?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I'm not sure if you can view either of these volumes if your IP address is based outside of the United States--if not, I can send you both off-list if you send me a private email.
-Elizabeth A
Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval
English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account
cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist,
Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "MedievalA nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account
cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist,
Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
-- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such
orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly
technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's accountA nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist, Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
-- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.Hi everyone
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
Nancy
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-5, guineapi...@gmail.com wrote:confirm. It is not clear how reliable the earlier part of the work on the older generations of the Carrington family might be, given what Round says about the rest of the work. If what it shows about the wives of the Carringtons, it is possible that Emma
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist, Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device onA nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
Yes. It is quite definite in its conclusions, though i do not know how many of them are entirely certain. In any case, I read both works, and unfortunately, they did not serve to establish the identity of Emma Carrington, which is what i was trying to-- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.Hi everyone
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
Nancy
J. Sardina
On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 9:46:26 AM UTC-5, J. Sardina wrote:to confirm. It is not clear how reliable the earlier part of the work on the older generations of the Carrington family might be, given what Round says about the rest of the work. If what it shows about the wives of the Carringtons, it is possible that
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-5, guineapi...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist, Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.A nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
Yes. It is quite definite in its conclusions, though i do not know how many of them are entirely certain. In any case, I read both works, and unfortunately, they did not serve to establish the identity of Emma Carrington, which is what i was trying-- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. ReedHi everyone
article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
Nancy
J. SardinaNote: It seems that Emma may have been a daughter of George Caryngton, not of sir John Caryngton, according to some pedigrees attached to a long lawsuit between the Breretons and others and the Caryngtons :
Catalogue description
Short title: Brereton v Caryngton. Plaintiffs: Uryan BRERETON, esquire, groom of the...
Reference: C 1/952/65-68
Description:
Short title: Brereton v Caryngton.
Plaintiffs: Uryan BRERETON, esquire, groom of the Privy Chamber, descendant and heir of George Caryngton.
Defendants: John CARYNGTON.
Subject: Manor of Carrington, messuages and land in Partington, and one-third of half the manor of Ashton-on-Mersey and of messuages, a mill and landin Kenworthy (in Northenden), Stockport, Hattersley, Wooley (in Hollingworth), and Mottram.
Pedigrees given. Cheshire
Date: 1538-1544
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
J. Sardina
a mill and landin KenworthyIt may be useful to know that an alternative spelling for Kenworthy
On 18/12/2021 18:24, J. Sardina wrote:
a mill and landin KenworthyIt may be useful to know that an alternative spelling for Kenworthy
(which has more or less disappeared under a road junction on the M60) is Kennerly. The two can be interchangeable as place name and surname.
I wonder how this manor came up to be divided in a way that the Caryngtons inherited or adquired exactly:
"one-third of half the manor of Ashton-on-Mersey."
If anyone is interested, I have started a WikiTree project page and would like to share my latest findings with you. I encourage peer review and open collaboration.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:DNA_Group_R-M269-9
I am sure some of you will find some of the details of my content rather interesting. It's worth a careful read.
Thank you.
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-5, guineapi...@gmail.com wrote:confirm. It is not clear how reliable the earlier part of the work on the older generations of the Carrington family might be, given what Round says about the rest of the work. If what it shows about the wives of the Carringtons, it is possible that Emma
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist, Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device onA nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
Yes. It is quite definite in its conclusions, though i do not know how many of them are entirely certain. In any case, I read both works, and unfortunately, they did not serve to establish the identity of Emma Carrington, which is what i was trying to-- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.Hi everyone
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
Nancy
J. Sardina
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