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  • Seeking to establish Charlemagne Ancestor.

    From David Heiden@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 13 09:37:06 2021
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
    Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to dahe...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 13 10:24:40 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 9:37:09 AM UTC-8, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton


    Just touching your first entry Kenelm

    https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00583610&tree=LEO

    we see here, no known ascent

    what is your source

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Greg Cooke@21:1/5 to dahe...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 13 10:55:52 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 10:37:09 AM UTC-7, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Regarding the Winslows, I suggest reviewing Anderson, _Pilgrim Migration_ (2004), pp 1-2, 344, & 518-521. Kenelm m. Ellen Newton, widow of John Adams, though her identity as a Newton is somewhat circumstantial. You don't give your descent from the
    Winslows, but their son Kenelm (s1635-1715) did m. Mercy Worden, daughter of Peter & Mary Worden, gr-daughter of Peter & Margaret Worden. This Peter is a verified gateway. Here's my page on your Kenelm: https://www.gdcooke.org/ss/org2-o/p5614.htm

    See also Fradd, _The Winslow Families of Worcestershire_ (2009). An extensive and detailed analysis that does not provide a yes/no conclusion regarding the possible royal descent of the Winslow brothers.

    Hope this helps,

    Greg

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 13 12:45:22 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 9:37:09 AM UTC-8, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Just touching your first entry Kenelm

    https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00583610&tree=LEO

    we see here, no known ascent

    Not necessarily true. Just because there is no ascent recorded in Genealogics doesn't mean there is "no known ascent". You should be more specific in your claims.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Heiden@21:1/5 to gdco...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 13 12:47:48 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 1:55:53 PM UTC-5, gdco...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 10:37:09 AM UTC-7, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Regarding the Winslows, I suggest reviewing Anderson, _Pilgrim Migration_ (2004), pp 1-2, 344, & 518-521. Kenelm m. Ellen Newton, widow of John Adams, though her identity as a Newton is somewhat circumstantial. You don't give your descent from the
    Winslows, but their son Kenelm (s1635-1715) did m. Mercy Worden, daughter of Peter & Mary Worden, gr-daughter of Peter & Margaret Worden. This Peter is a verified gateway. Here's my page on your Kenelm: https://www.gdcooke.org/ss/org2-o/p5614.htm

    See also Fradd, _The Winslow Families of Worcestershire_ (2009). An extensive and detailed analysis that does not provide a yes/no conclusion regarding the possible royal descent of the Winslow brothers.

    Hope this helps,

    Greg
    Yes, that is my line, from Kenelm Winslow/Elinot Worden > Ellen Winslow/Rev. Samuel Baker > Lydia Baker/Josiaha Keene > Lydia Keene/George Partridge > Sarah Partridge/Asa Hunt > Capt. Ziba Hunt/Joanne Clarke Blount > George Hunt/Elizabeth Deming > Lydia
    Hunt/Orren Finch, my GGG Grandparents

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to dahe...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 13 14:39:25 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 12:37:09 PM UTC-5, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
    Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    This line, sadly, is made up junk. There is no "de Warene" here.
    --Joe C

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to jhigg...@yahoo.com on Mon Dec 13 15:18:12 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 9:37:09 AM UTC-8, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Just touching your first entry Kenelm

    https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00583610&tree=LEO

    we see here, no known ascent
    Not necessarily true. Just because there is no ascent recorded in Genealogics doesn't mean there is "no known ascent". You should be more specific in your claims.

    Reading comprehension

    I said "we see HERE no known ascent". Note the use of HERE to express, this, place.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From James Baker@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 13 16:07:14 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 6:18:25 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:

    Just touching your first entry Kenelm

    https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00583610&tree=LEO

    we see here, no known ascent
    Not necessarily true. Just because there is no ascent recorded in Genealogics doesn't mean there is "no known ascent". You should be more specific in your claims.
    Reading comprehension

    I said "we see HERE no known ascent". Note the use of HERE to express, this, place.

    Come on, Will. If you’re going to be pedantic, you should probably be meticulous about your punctuation as well. I could as easily read your quote: “Just touching your first entry Kenelm [link] we see here, no known ascent” as “Regarding your
    first entry Kenelm whom I see here, there is no known ascent.” Obviously OP read it this way too. Just because it’s obvious in your head doesn’t mean everyone else has to be called out for needing “reading comprehension.”

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From James Baker@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 13 16:08:57 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 6:18:25 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote: …….
    Just touching your first entry Kenelm

    https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00583610&tree=LEO

    we see here, no known ascent
    Not necessarily true. Just because there is no ascent recorded in Genealogics doesn't mean there is "no known ascent". You should be more specific in your claims.
    Reading comprehension

    I said "we see HERE no known ascent". Note the use of HERE to express, this, place.

    Come on, Will. If you’re going to be pedantic, you should probably be meticulous about your punctuation as well. I could as easily read your quote: “Just touching your first entry Kenelm [link] we see here, no known ascent” as “Regarding your
    first entry Kenelm whom I see here, there is no known ascent.” Obviously OP read it this way too. Just because it’s obvious in your head doesn’t mean someone else has to be called out for needing “reading comprehension.”

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to joe...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 13 17:05:50 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 2:39:26 PM UTC-8, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 12:37:09 PM UTC-5, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet
    This line, sadly, is made up junk. There is no "de Warene" here.

    Just to amplify, we were just discussing the Griffin Wareyn/de Warenne who is claimed to have married Margaret Corbet on another thread here. The John, son of Griffin at the end of this pedigree had only two known children, a son Griffin who died
    unmarried before reaching majority, and a daughter Margaret/Marjory who was the eventual heiress of her parents, so there was no son Robert. Do you know where the part of the line running through John, John, John and Robert supposedly lived?

    taf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to taf on Mon Dec 13 17:19:20 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 8:05:52 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 2:39:26 PM UTC-8, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 12:37:09 PM UTC-5, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet
    This line, sadly, is made up junk. There is no "de Warene" here.
    Just to amplify, we were just discussing the Griffin Wareyn/de Warenne who is claimed to have married Margaret Corbet on another thread here. The John, son of Griffin at the end of this pedigree had only two known children, a son Griffin who died
    unmarried before reaching majority, and a daughter Margaret/Marjory who was the eventual heiress of her parents, so there was no son Robert. Do you know where the part of the line running through John, John, John and Robert supposedly lived?

    John Warren, immigrant, was baptized Aug 1, 1585 in Nayland, Suffolk
    John Warren, his father was born about 1552, probably Nayland, Suffolk
    John Warren, husbandman, his father was of Nayland, born say 1525, and left in his will a modest amount; 12d to the 12 poorest people in town, a dish, etc.
    Robert Warren was of Wyston (Winston?) Suffolk, left a will proved Feb 1545/5, with his own property and not much else (20s to a daughter, etc).

    Nothing is known as to Robert's origins, but there is only wishful thinking to tie him to higher classes.

    --Joe Cook

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 13 18:34:10 2021
    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
    Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    I have not seen this line before...but it is (slightly) more interesting than the others.
    Honor Tucker was baptized 28 Feb 1613 in Plymouth, Devon to one John Tucker.

    It has been assumed this was the John Tucker who married Urith Dinnis in 1602 (Plymouth, Devon) since Honor's first child was named "Urith". OK. Not sufficient, but ok.

    Then searching around Devon, I guess someone saw that there is the following couple in the Visitations of Devon, 1564:

    William Tucker (of Exeter, Devon) and Honora Erissey. William Tucker is very well documented in DNB and elsewhere. And they jumped at the name "Honora" being in the family there.
    In that visitation, they are listed with five sons, all of whom could potentially be a parent to John Tucker. There are two children named John of those five.

    So, not really a lot to go on; more wishful thinking than anything else; but maybe more worth chasing down than the others..
    --joe cook

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 14 04:11:21 2021
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 18:55:53 UTC, gdco...@gmail.com escreveu:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 10:37:09 AM UTC-7, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Regarding the Winslows, I suggest reviewing Anderson, _Pilgrim Migration_ (2004), pp 1-2, 344, & 518-521. Kenelm m. Ellen Newton, widow of John Adams, though her identity as a Newton is somewhat circumstantial. You don't give your descent from the
    Winslows, but their son Kenelm (s1635-1715) did m. Mercy Worden, daughter of Peter & Mary Worden, gr-daughter of Peter & Margaret Worden. This Peter is a verified gateway. Here's my page on your Kenelm: https://www.gdcooke.org/ss/org2-o/p5614.htm

    See also Fradd, _The Winslow Families of Worcestershire_ (2009). An extensive and detailed analysis that does not provide a yes/no conclusion regarding the possible royal descent of the Winslow brothers.

    Hope this helps,

    Greg

    The Throckmorton descent, specifically, is definitely wrong, though. As noted at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Throckmorton-26, Agnes Throckmorton Winslow had no sons.
    Kay Allen said at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/qcpu4pDfphI/m/UCFxSglFiWQJ
    that Agnes's husband Thonas may have had a younger brother who was ancestor of the Winslow brothers

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WADP@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 14 11:32:56 2021
    I've lost count over how many potential gateway ancestors I've gone through. I've probably seriously investigated at least 12. Out of these some turned out to be just wishful thinking. Others right family, but wrong branch. Others just poor research. I
    had virtually given up on finding any ancestors whose roots would take me back to the aristocracy, let alone anyone like Charlemagne. Then one day while researching a newly discovered ancestor, Thomas Lawrence of Newtown, Long Island, I came across
    claims that he descended from Charlemagne. My initial reaction was yeah right. Tell me another story. However, I came across a genealogy that used as a reference Gary Boyd Roberts, whom I had never heard of before. When I found out that he was a
    professional genealogist that got my attention. I soon came across David L. Greene's article on the family and that clinched it. My point is that you can never tell when you might stumble across someone who just might turn out to be an established
    gateway ancestor or a totally new one for which you discover solid evidence for.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Heiden@21:1/5 to pdaw...@gmail.com on Tue Dec 14 14:10:08 2021
    On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 2:32:57 PM UTC-5, pdaw...@gmail.com wrote:
    I've lost count over how many potential gateway ancestors I've gone through. I've probably seriously investigated at least 12. Out of these some turned out to be just wishful thinking. Others right family, but wrong branch. Others just poor research. I
    had virtually given up on finding any ancestors whose roots would take me back to the aristocracy, let alone anyone like Charlemagne. Then one day while researching a newly discovered ancestor, Thomas Lawrence of Newtown, Long Island, I came across
    claims that he descended from Charlemagne. My initial reaction was yeah right. Tell me another story. However, I came across a genealogy that used as a reference Gary Boyd Roberts, whom I had never heard of before. When I found out that he was a
    professional genealogist that got my attention. I soon came across David L. Greene's article on the family and that clinched it. My point is that you can never tell when you might stumble across someone who just might turn out to be an established
    gateway ancestor or a totally new one for which you discover solid evidence for.
    Yes, that's the situation I'm in, having been searching for years, even a couple of rejections. I'm bound to find my Charlemagne connection.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 14 17:49:54 2021
    Links to Charlemagne do not just suffer from bad hopping-the-pond conjectures. Even if you get back to say 1300, you will confront dozens of conjectures that have bad or little evidence.
    This is why we really need a sufficient way of indicating the probability of links

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 15 05:56:32 2021
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
    Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld

    I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated.
    However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From mike davis@21:1/5 to dahe...@gmail.com on Wed Dec 15 07:02:29 2021
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 5:37:09 PM UTC, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List.

    Where is this list? Is it on a website somewhere. Is this just for the USA? Is there
    something similar compiled for other countries. A list of people with
    verified descents from Charlemagne in the UK c1800 would be quite large I hope.

    Mike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to mike davis on Wed Dec 15 08:29:16 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 7:02:31 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 5:37:09 PM UTC, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List.
    Where is this list? Is it on a website somewhere. Is this just for the USA? Is there
    something similar compiled for other countries. A list of people with verified descents from Charlemagne in the UK c1800 would be quite large I hope.

    Mike

    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Wed Dec 15 10:20:39 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 8:29:18 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.

    Hard to evaluate with just names. There are some people listed for whom the most common claim of royal ancestry is unsupportable, but I don't know if there isn't another route that is indeed valid. Some of the obviously bogus ones are absent, which is a
    good thing. That said, I have also seen claims online that this society has formally recognized connection X, when connecion X has been recognized as false for eons (e.g. thet Gundred, was daughter of William the Conqueror), but one can never know if
    this represents their current position or is being cited from dated material.

    taf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Johnny Brananas@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Wed Dec 15 10:48:03 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:29:18 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 7:02:31 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 5:37:09 PM UTC, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List.
    Where is this list? Is it on a website somewhere. Is this just for the USA? Is there
    something similar compiled for other countries. A list of people with verified descents from Charlemagne in the UK c1800 would be quite large I hope.

    Mike
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.

    This looks to me like the table of contents from Gary Boyd Roberts' _Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants_, with everyone who arrived after about 1700 removed. There are a few additions or differences (for instance, Humphrey Warren is not shown in RD900
    with a royal line, though Gary provides a brief discussion of the problems with the claimed line). Notice that the French Canadians in Gary's book have been interspersed at the appropriate alphabetical point.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Nathan Murphy@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 15 14:06:35 2021
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.

    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to nathan...@gmail.com on Wed Dec 15 14:21:20 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 2:06:36 PM UTC-8, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.
    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan

    Is there going to be at some point, an update that shows the actual line laid-out in full?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From mike davis@21:1/5 to nathan...@gmail.com on Wed Dec 15 15:56:21 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:06:36 PM UTC, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.
    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan

    It would be useful to have their born and death dates alongside the names to help id, as many of them
    are quite common. I was interested in Dr Charles Carroll; is he is the Dr Charles [d1755] who emigrated
    from Ireland in 1715, and went on to establish his family at Mount Clare Md? I'm not sure but it seemed
    that both his sons died childless, if so, any descendants could only come from his daughter Mary Clare
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?

    Mike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Wed Dec 15 17:21:24 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
    Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
    I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated. However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.
    Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Wed Dec 15 17:48:14 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:29:18 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 7:02:31 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
    On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 5:37:09 PM UTC, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List.
    Where is this list? Is it on a website somewhere. Is this just for the USA? Is there
    something similar compiled for other countries. A list of people with verified descents from Charlemagne in the UK c1800 would be quite large I hope.

    Mike
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.

    The list is pretty accurate, as in it is based on some published research. It certainly is not a "complete" list; but obviously that is not the intent of the list at all.
    --Joe Cook

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joseph cook@21:1/5 to mike davis on Wed Dec 15 17:54:12 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 6:56:23 PM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:06:36 PM UTC, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.
    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan
    It would be useful to have their born and death dates alongside the names to help id, as many of them
    are quite common. I was interested in Dr Charles Carroll; is he is the Dr Charles [d1755] who emigrated
    from Ireland in 1715, and went on to establish his family at Mount Clare Md? I'm not sure but it seemed
    that both his sons died childless, if so, any descendants could only come from his daughter Mary Clare
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?

    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Nathan Murphy@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 16 00:35:54 2021
    Nathan
    Is there going to be at some point, an update that shows the actual line laid-out in full?

    Additions and deletions are made to the list as applications for membership are processed. I also add new gateways as they are discovered.

    Nathan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Nathan Murphy@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 16 00:38:39 2021
    Is there going to be at some point, an update that shows the actual line laid-out in full?

    That is an interesting idea. There aren't plans to publish the entire lineages back to Charlemagne on the website at this time, but I'll keep that idea in mind.

    Nathan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to nathan...@gmail.com on Thu Dec 16 15:49:43 2021
    On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 12:38:40 AM UTC-8, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    Is there going to be at some point, an update that shows the actual line laid-out in full?
    That is an interesting idea. There aren't plans to publish the entire lineages back to Charlemagne on the website at this time, but I'll keep that idea in mind.

    Nathan

    Another useful point, might be to cite, for each name, an article that gives their parents, etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From mike davis@21:1/5 to joe...@gmail.com on Thu Dec 16 16:04:43 2021
    On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 1:54:13 AM UTC, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 6:56:23 PM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:06:36 PM UTC, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.
    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan
    It would be useful to have their born and death dates alongside the names to help id, as many of them
    are quite common. I was interested in Dr Charles Carroll; is he is the Dr Charles [d1755] who emigrated
    from Ireland in 1715, and went on to establish his family at Mount Clare Md? I'm not sure but it seemed
    that both his sons died childless, if so, any descendants could only come from his daughter Mary Clare
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook

    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike

    1. Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757, of Clonlisk, Co. Offaly,
    Ireland, and Annapolis, Md., where he settled c. 1712.

    2. Col.Charles Carroll, b. c. 1635, d. by 1712; of Clonlisk.
    3. Clare Dunne (Clara ni Duinn, O'Duinn), fl. 1691-1712.

    4. John O'Carroll, b. 1596, fl. 1663, of Clonlisk Castle; last
    recognized Lord or Chief of Ely O'Carroll.
    5. Mary Dillon, fl. 1631-63.
    6. Charles Dunne (O'Duinn), c. 1620-1681, of Brittas, Co. Leix.
    7. Margaret Coghlan (ni Cochlain, MacCoghlan).

    8. Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll, killed 1595; of Tewriske, Co.
    Offaly.
    9. Margaret ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
    10. Sir Lucas Dillon, fl. l612-53, d. by 1659; of Loughglynn and Ballymacmorough, Co. Roscommon; member of the Supreme Council of
    the Irish Catholic (Kilkenny) Confderation.
    11. Jane Moore, fl. 1659.
    12. Barnaby Dunne (Brian Og O'Duinn), c. 1593-1661, of Brittas,
    Co. Laois.
    13. _____ Fitzgerald.
    14. Toirdhealbach MacCochlain (Terence Coghlan, MacCoghlan), fl.
    1523, d. 1653; of Kilcolgan Castle, Rachra Castle, etc., Co.
    Offaly.
    15. Mary Dillon, fl. 1635-65.

    16. Tadhg O'Carroll, fl. 1568, d. by 1580; of Lemyvanan (Leap)
    Castle, Co. Offaly.
    17. "a Galway lady."
    18. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, Co. Laois, d. 1606/7.
    19. Elizabeth Fitzgerald.
    20. Sir Theobald Dillon, 1st Viscount Dillon of Costello-Gallen,
    fl. 1582, d. 1624.
    21. Eleanor Tuite, d. 1638.
    22. Sir John Moore, fl. 1560, d. 1631; of Brees, Co. Mayo; Cloghan
    Castle, Co. Offaly, etc.; Clerk of the Crown for Coinnaught.
    23. Mary Burke, d. 1624.
    24. Brian O'Duinn, d. 1614; of Brittas, Co. Laois.
    25. _____ ni Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy).
    26. James Fitzgerald, d. 1602; of Kilrush and Dunmorughell, Co.
    Kildare.
    27. _____ ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
    28. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1591, d. 1642; of Kincora Castle,
    Co. Offaly; Chief of the Sliocht (sept) Fearghaill MacCochlain.
    29. Meadhg ni Maonaigh (Maud O'Mooney).
    30. Robert Dillon, b. c. 1575, fl. 1641; of Cannerstown Castle,
    Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
    31. Margaret Dillon.

    32. Sir William Odhar O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed
    1581.
    33. Sadhbh ni Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick), fl.
    1568.
    36. Tadhg Riabhach (Fuscus, the Swarthy) O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan,
    fl. 1540-72.
    37. _____ ni Muiris (MacMorish).
    38. James Fitzgerald, fl. 1520-61, d. by 1568; of Ballyshannon
    Castle and Blackwood, Co. Kildare.
    39. Katherine Eustace.
    40. Thomas Maol (the Bald) Dillon, fl. 1535; of Ballynakill,
    Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
    42. William Buidhe (the Yellow-Haired) Tuite, fl. 1572-88; of
    Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
    43. Margaret Fitzgerald.
    46. Sir Richard Burke, 2d Earl of Clanricarde, 2d Baron Dunkellin,
    c. 1530-1582.
    47. Margaret O'Brien, d. 1568.
    48-49. same as nos. 18-19.
    50. Cathaoir MacFerganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (Cahir MacFirr O'Molloy),
    of Ballyboy, Co. Offaly.
    52. Sir Maurice Fitzgerald, c. 1526-1575, of Lackagh and
    Norraghbegg, Co. Kildare.
    53. Margaret Butler.
    54-55. same as nos. 18-19.
    56. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1540-57; of Feddan and Kincora, Co.
    Offaly.
    57. Sile ni Diomusaigh (O'Dempsey).
    58. Sean O'Maonaigh (John O'Mooney), of Eskercastle, Co. Offaly.
    60. Thomas Dillon, d. 1593; of Arnacrany and Kilmackeron, Co.
    Westmeath; Chamberlain of the Irish Exchequer.
    61. Margaret Cashell, fl. 1581-88.
    62-63. same as nos. 20-21.

    64. Ferganainm O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed 1541.
    66. Sir Brian Mac Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick),
    Lord of Upper Ossory, 1st Baron Upper Ossory, fl. 1511, d. 1575.
    67. Margaret Butler, fl. 1529-42, d. by 1551.
    72. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1537-41.
    73. Gormliath ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    76. Sir Gerald MacShane Fitzgerald, d. 1533/4; of Cloncurry,
    Blackwood and Ballyshannon Castle, Co. Kildare.
    77. Grainne ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
    78. Sir Thomas Eustace, 1st Viscount Baltinglass, 1st Baron
    Kilcullen, c. 1480-1549.
    79. Margaret Talbot.
    80. James Dillon, an Prior Mor (the Great Prior), fl. 1500-1550;
    of Ballynakill, Dillon's Country, Co. Westmeath; prior in
    commendam of St. John Baptist, Kilkenny West.
    81. _____ Dowling.
    84. Sir Richard Tuite, d. 1565; of Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
    85. Ellen Barnewall.
    86. Gerald (Garret Og) Fitzgerald, d. c. 1541; of Croboy, Co.
    Meath.
    87. Marian St. Lawrence, fl. 1541.
    92. Sir Ulikc Burke (Uilleag na-gCeann, Ulick of the Heads), Lord
    of Clanricarde, 1st Earl of Clanricarde, 1st Baron Dunkellin, d.
    1544.
    93. Grainne ni Cearbhaill (O'Carroll).
    94. Sir Donnchadh Mor (Donough the Fat) O'Brien, 2d Earl of
    Thomond, 1st Baron Ibracken, d. 1553.
    95. Ellen Butler, c. 1520-1597.
    100. Ferganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy), fl. 1558; of Ballyboy,
    Co. Offaly.
    101. Sadhbh ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    104. Thomas Fitzgerald, d. 1553; of Lackagh and Norraghbegg, Co.
    Kildare.
    105. Eleanor Delahide.
    106. The Most Rev. Edmund Butler, O.S. Trin., d. 1551; prior in
    commendam of Athassel, Co. Tipperary; Archbishop of Cashel,
    1525-51.
    112. James Og Maccochlain, d. 1540; of Feddan Castle, Co. Offaly.
    116. Ruaidhri O'Maonaigh (O'Mooney), fl. 1558; of Eskercastle, Co.
    Offaly.
    120. Sir Robert Dillon, c. 1500-1580, of Newtown near Trim, Co.
    Westmeath, and Dublin; Attorney General of Ireland; Justice of the
    Court of Queen's Bench; Chief Justice of the Court of Common
    Pleas, 1559-80.
    121. Genet Barnewall.
    122. Stephen Cashell, fl. 1538, d. 1564; of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
    123. Margaret St. Lawrence.

    128. Maolruanaidh Mor O'Carroll. Lord of Ely O'Carroll, d. 1532.
    129. _____ ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
    132. Brian na-Luireach (Brian of the Shirts of Mail) Mac Giolla
    Phadraig (MacGillapatrick), Lord of Upper Ossory, d. c. 1511.
    133. Noirin (Honora) ni Mordha (O'More).
    134. Sir Piers Ruadh (the Red) Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde, 1st
    Earl of Ossory, c. 1467-1539.
    135. Margaret Fitzgerald, fl. 1485, d. 1542.
    144. Tadhg MacLaighneach O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1475.
    145. Ellin Le Poer.
    146. Cathaoir O'Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley), Lord of
    Offaly, killed 1511.
    142. Sir John (Shane) Fitzgerald, d. 1466; of Cloncurry, Co.
    Kildare.
    143. Fenole ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    154. Gearalt Mac Murchadha Caomhanach (Gerald MacMorough
    Kavanagh), constable of Carlow Castle, 1495.
    156. Sir Richard fitzEustace, fl. 1479-1500; of Harristown Castle,
    Co. Kildare.
    157. Anne FitzEustace.
    158. Sir Peter Talbot, d. 1529; lord of Malahide, Co. Dublin.
    159. Catherine Fitzgerald.
    160. Sir Gerald (Garret) Dillon, of Dunimony Castle, Co.
    Westmeath; fl. 1532.
    161. _____ Fitzgerald.
    168. Sir Edward Tuite, 1467-1531, of Monylea, Co. Westmeath.
    169. Margaret Fitzgerald.
    172. Same as no. 76.
    173. Katherine Plunkett.
    174. Sir Nicholas St. Lawrence, 3d Baron Howth, fl. 1478, d, 1526.
    175. Alice Fitzsimons.
    184. Richard Mor Burke, Lord of Clanricarde, d. 1530.
    185. _____ ni Madain (O'Madden).
    186. Same as no. 128.
    187. _____ ni Ceinedigh Fionn (O'Kennedy Finn).
    188. Conchobhair (Conor) O'Brien, King of Thomond, d. 1539.
    189. Margaret (or Annabel) Burke, d. by 1539.
    190-191. same as nos. 134-135.
    200. Dohnaill O'Maolmuaidh (Donal O'Molloy), of Co. Offaly.
    208. Sir Mauricce Fitzgerald, killed 1520; of Lackagh, Co.
    Kildare; Lord Deputy of Ireland, 1519-20.
    209. Anne FitzEustace.
    210. Sir James Delahide, of Moyclare Castle, Co. Kildare.
    211. Rose Hussey.
    212. same as no. 134.
    213. _____Hackett.
    224. James MacCochlain, killed v.p. 1510; prior of the monastery
    of Gallen, Co. Offaly.
    232. Eoghan O'Maonaigh (Owen O'Mooney).
    240. James Dillon, fl. 1477-79, d. by 1507; of Monktown and
    Riverston, Co. Meath; First Baron of the Irish Exchequer.
    241. Elizabeth Bathe.
    242. Edward Barnewall, d. 1511; of Crickstown Castle and
    Kilmessan, Co. Meath; Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    243. Elizabeth Plunkett.
    244. Leonard Cashell, of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
    246. Sir Christopher St. Lawrence, 4th Baron Howth, c. 1482-1542,
    of Howth, Co. Dublin.
    247. Anne Bermingham, heiress of Baldongan Castle, etc., Co.
    Dublin.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leslie Mahler@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Thu Dec 16 16:53:37 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 2:21:22 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 2:06:36 PM UTC-8, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.
    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan
    Is there going to be at some point, an update that shows the actual line laid-out in full?


    You can find most of the details here:

    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Magna_Carta_Ancestry_A_Study_in_Colonial/8JcbV309c5UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=abbott+anne+mauleverer+nottingham&pg=PR23&printsec=frontcover

    Leslie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Olivier@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 17 04:36:36 2021
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 1:54:13 AM UTC, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 6:56:23 PM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:06:36 PM UTC, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.
    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan
    It would be useful to have their born and death dates alongside the names to help id, as many of them
    are quite common. I was interested in Dr Charles Carroll; is he is the Dr Charles [d1755] who emigrated
    from Ireland in 1715, and went on to establish his family at Mount Clare Md? I'm not sure but it seemed
    that both his sons died childless, if so, any descendants could only come from his daughter Mary Clare
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike

    1. Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757, of Clonlisk, Co. Offaly,
    Ireland, and Annapolis, Md., where he settled c. 1712.

    2. Col.Charles Carroll, b. c. 1635, d. by 1712; of Clonlisk.
    3. Clare Dunne (Clara ni Duinn, O'Duinn), fl. 1691-1712.

    4. John O'Carroll, b. 1596, fl. 1663, of Clonlisk Castle; last
    recognized Lord or Chief of Ely O'Carroll.
    5. Mary Dillon, fl. 1631-63.
    6. Charles Dunne (O'Duinn), c. 1620-1681, of Brittas, Co. Leix.
    7. Margaret Coghlan (ni Cochlain, MacCoghlan).

    8. Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll, killed 1595; of Tewriske, Co.
    Offaly.
    9. Margaret ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
    10. Sir Lucas Dillon, fl. l612-53, d. by 1659; of Loughglynn and Ballymacmorough, Co. Roscommon; member of the Supreme Council of
    the Irish Catholic (Kilkenny) Confderation.
    11. Jane Moore, fl. 1659.
    12. Barnaby Dunne (Brian Og O'Duinn), c. 1593-1661, of Brittas,
    Co. Laois.
    13. _____ Fitzgerald.
    14. Toirdhealbach MacCochlain (Terence Coghlan, MacCoghlan), fl.
    1523, d. 1653; of Kilcolgan Castle, Rachra Castle, etc., Co.
    Offaly.
    15. Mary Dillon, fl. 1635-65.

    16. Tadhg O'Carroll, fl. 1568, d. by 1580; of Lemyvanan (Leap)
    Castle, Co. Offaly.
    17. "a Galway lady."
    18. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, Co. Laois, d. 1606/7.
    19. Elizabeth Fitzgerald.
    20. Sir Theobald Dillon, 1st Viscount Dillon of Costello-Gallen,
    fl. 1582, d. 1624.
    21. Eleanor Tuite, d. 1638.
    22. Sir John Moore, fl. 1560, d. 1631; of Brees, Co. Mayo; Cloghan
    Castle, Co. Offaly, etc.; Clerk of the Crown for Coinnaught.
    23. Mary Burke, d. 1624.
    24. Brian O'Duinn, d. 1614; of Brittas, Co. Laois.
    25. _____ ni Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy).
    26. James Fitzgerald, d. 1602; of Kilrush and Dunmorughell, Co.
    Kildare.
    27. _____ ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
    28. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1591, d. 1642; of Kincora Castle,
    Co. Offaly; Chief of the Sliocht (sept) Fearghaill MacCochlain.
    29. Meadhg ni Maonaigh (Maud O'Mooney).
    30. Robert Dillon, b. c. 1575, fl. 1641; of Cannerstown Castle,
    Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
    31. Margaret Dillon.

    32. Sir William Odhar O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed
    1581.
    33. Sadhbh ni Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick), fl.
    1568.
    36. Tadhg Riabhach (Fuscus, the Swarthy) O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan,
    fl. 1540-72.
    37. _____ ni Muiris (MacMorish).
    38. James Fitzgerald, fl. 1520-61, d. by 1568; of Ballyshannon
    Castle and Blackwood, Co. Kildare.
    39. Katherine Eustace.
    40. Thomas Maol (the Bald) Dillon, fl. 1535; of Ballynakill,
    Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
    42. William Buidhe (the Yellow-Haired) Tuite, fl. 1572-88; of
    Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
    43. Margaret Fitzgerald.
    46. Sir Richard Burke, 2d Earl of Clanricarde, 2d Baron Dunkellin,
    c. 1530-1582.
    47. Margaret O'Brien, d. 1568.
    48-49. same as nos. 18-19.
    50. Cathaoir MacFerganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (Cahir MacFirr O'Molloy),
    of Ballyboy, Co. Offaly.
    52. Sir Maurice Fitzgerald, c. 1526-1575, of Lackagh and
    Norraghbegg, Co. Kildare.
    53. Margaret Butler.
    54-55. same as nos. 18-19.
    56. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1540-57; of Feddan and Kincora, Co.
    Offaly.
    57. Sile ni Diomusaigh (O'Dempsey).
    58. Sean O'Maonaigh (John O'Mooney), of Eskercastle, Co. Offaly.
    60. Thomas Dillon, d. 1593; of Arnacrany and Kilmackeron, Co.
    Westmeath; Chamberlain of the Irish Exchequer.
    61. Margaret Cashell, fl. 1581-88.
    62-63. same as nos. 20-21.

    64. Ferganainm O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed 1541.
    66. Sir Brian Mac Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick),
    Lord of Upper Ossory, 1st Baron Upper Ossory, fl. 1511, d. 1575.
    67. Margaret Butler, fl. 1529-42, d. by 1551.
    72. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1537-41.
    73. Gormliath ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    76. Sir Gerald MacShane Fitzgerald, d. 1533/4; of Cloncurry,
    Blackwood and Ballyshannon Castle, Co. Kildare.
    77. Grainne ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
    78. Sir Thomas Eustace, 1st Viscount Baltinglass, 1st Baron
    Kilcullen, c. 1480-1549.
    79. Margaret Talbot.
    80. James Dillon, an Prior Mor (the Great Prior), fl. 1500-1550;
    of Ballynakill, Dillon's Country, Co. Westmeath; prior in
    commendam of St. John Baptist, Kilkenny West.
    81. _____ Dowling.
    84. Sir Richard Tuite, d. 1565; of Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
    85. Ellen Barnewall.
    86. Gerald (Garret Og) Fitzgerald, d. c. 1541; of Croboy, Co.
    Meath.
    87. Marian St. Lawrence, fl. 1541.
    92. Sir Ulikc Burke (Uilleag na-gCeann, Ulick of the Heads), Lord
    of Clanricarde, 1st Earl of Clanricarde, 1st Baron Dunkellin, d.
    1544.
    93. Grainne ni Cearbhaill (O'Carroll).
    94. Sir Donnchadh Mor (Donough the Fat) O'Brien, 2d Earl of
    Thomond, 1st Baron Ibracken, d. 1553.
    95. Ellen Butler, c. 1520-1597.
    100. Ferganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy), fl. 1558; of Ballyboy,
    Co. Offaly.
    101. Sadhbh ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    104. Thomas Fitzgerald, d. 1553; of Lackagh and Norraghbegg, Co.
    Kildare.
    105. Eleanor Delahide.
    106. The Most Rev. Edmund Butler, O.S. Trin., d. 1551; prior in
    commendam of Athassel, Co. Tipperary; Archbishop of Cashel,
    1525-51.
    112. James Og Maccochlain, d. 1540; of Feddan Castle, Co. Offaly.
    116. Ruaidhri O'Maonaigh (O'Mooney), fl. 1558; of Eskercastle, Co.
    Offaly.
    120. Sir Robert Dillon, c. 1500-1580, of Newtown near Trim, Co.
    Westmeath, and Dublin; Attorney General of Ireland; Justice of the
    Court of Queen's Bench; Chief Justice of the Court of Common
    Pleas, 1559-80.
    121. Genet Barnewall.
    122. Stephen Cashell, fl. 1538, d. 1564; of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
    123. Margaret St. Lawrence.

    128. Maolruanaidh Mor O'Carroll. Lord of Ely O'Carroll, d. 1532.
    129. _____ ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
    132. Brian na-Luireach (Brian of the Shirts of Mail) Mac Giolla
    Phadraig (MacGillapatrick), Lord of Upper Ossory, d. c. 1511.
    133. Noirin (Honora) ni Mordha (O'More).
    134. Sir Piers Ruadh (the Red) Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde, 1st
    Earl of Ossory, c. 1467-1539.
    135. Margaret Fitzgerald, fl. 1485, d. 1542.
    144. Tadhg MacLaighneach O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1475.
    145. Ellin Le Poer.
    146. Cathaoir O'Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley), Lord of
    Offaly, killed 1511.
    142. Sir John (Shane) Fitzgerald, d. 1466; of Cloncurry, Co.
    Kildare.
    143. Fenole ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    154. Gearalt Mac Murchadha Caomhanach (Gerald MacMorough
    Kavanagh), constable of Carlow Castle, 1495.
    156. Sir Richard fitzEustace, fl. 1479-1500; of Harristown Castle,
    Co. Kildare.
    157. Anne FitzEustace.
    158. Sir Peter Talbot, d. 1529; lord of Malahide, Co. Dublin.
    159. Catherine Fitzgerald.
    160. Sir Gerald (Garret) Dillon, of Dunimony Castle, Co.
    Westmeath; fl. 1532.
    161. _____ Fitzgerald.
    168. Sir Edward Tuite, 1467-1531, of Monylea, Co. Westmeath.
    169. Margaret Fitzgerald.
    172. Same as no. 76.
    173. Katherine Plunkett.
    174. Sir Nicholas St. Lawrence, 3d Baron Howth, fl. 1478, d, 1526.
    175. Alice Fitzsimons.
    184. Richard Mor Burke, Lord of Clanricarde, d. 1530.
    185. _____ ni Madain (O'Madden).
    186. Same as no. 128.
    187. _____ ni Ceinedigh Fionn (O'Kennedy Finn).
    188. Conchobhair (Conor) O'Brien, King of Thomond, d. 1539.
    189. Margaret (or Annabel) Burke, d. by 1539.
    190-191. same as nos. 134-135.
    200. Dohnaill O'Maolmuaidh (Donal O'Molloy), of Co. Offaly.
    208. Sir Mauricce Fitzgerald, killed 1520; of Lackagh, Co.
    Kildare; Lord Deputy of Ireland, 1519-20.
    209. Anne FitzEustace.
    210. Sir James Delahide, of Moyclare Castle, Co. Kildare.
    211. Rose Hussey.
    212. same as no. 134.
    213. _____Hackett.
    224. James MacCochlain, killed v.p. 1510; prior of the monastery
    of Gallen, Co. Offaly.
    232. Eoghan O'Maonaigh (Owen O'Mooney).
    240. James Dillon, fl. 1477-79, d. by 1507; of Monktown and
    Riverston, Co. Meath; First Baron of the Irish Exchequer.
    241. Elizabeth Bathe.
    242. Edward Barnewall, d. 1511; of Crickstown Castle and
    Kilmessan, Co. Meath; Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    243. Elizabeth Plunkett.
    244. Leonard Cashell, of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
    246. Sir Christopher St. Lawrence, 4th Baron Howth, c. 1482-1542,
    of Howth, Co. Dublin.
    247. Anne Bermingham, heiress of Baldongan Castle, etc., Co.
    Dublin.

    Edward I Longshanks, King of England 1239-1307
    &1254 Eleanor de Castilla 1241-1290
    |
    Elizabeth Plantagenêt 1282-1316
    &1302 Humphrey VII de Bohun, Earl of Hereford 1272/1276-1321
    |
    Eleanor de Bohun 1304-1363
    &1327 James Butler, Earl of Ormond ca 1305-1337
    |
    James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1331-1382
    &1346 Anne Darcy †1389
    |
    James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1359-1405
    &/1386 Anne de Welles 1360-1397
    |
    Richard Butler 1395-1443
    & Catherine O'Reilly
    |
    Edmund Butler †1464
    & Gylys O'Carroll †1506
    |
    James Butler †1467
    & Sabh Kavanagh †1508
    |
    Piers the Red Butler, Earl of Ormonde 1467-1539

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Olivier@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 17 04:45:23 2021
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 1:54:13 AM UTC, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 6:56:23 PM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:06:36 PM UTC, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.
    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan
    It would be useful to have their born and death dates alongside the names to help id, as many of them
    are quite common. I was interested in Dr Charles Carroll; is he is the Dr Charles [d1755] who emigrated
    from Ireland in 1715, and went on to establish his family at Mount Clare Md? I'm not sure but it seemed
    that both his sons died childless, if so, any descendants could only come from his daughter Mary Clare
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike

    1. Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757, of Clonlisk, Co. Offaly,
    Ireland, and Annapolis, Md., where he settled c. 1712.

    2. Col.Charles Carroll, b. c. 1635, d. by 1712; of Clonlisk.
    3. Clare Dunne (Clara ni Duinn, O'Duinn), fl. 1691-1712.

    4. John O'Carroll, b. 1596, fl. 1663, of Clonlisk Castle; last
    recognized Lord or Chief of Ely O'Carroll.
    5. Mary Dillon, fl. 1631-63.
    6. Charles Dunne (O'Duinn), c. 1620-1681, of Brittas, Co. Leix.
    7. Margaret Coghlan (ni Cochlain, MacCoghlan).

    8. Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll, killed 1595; of Tewriske, Co.
    Offaly.
    9. Margaret ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
    10. Sir Lucas Dillon, fl. l612-53, d. by 1659; of Loughglynn and Ballymacmorough, Co. Roscommon; member of the Supreme Council of
    the Irish Catholic (Kilkenny) Confderation.
    11. Jane Moore, fl. 1659.
    12. Barnaby Dunne (Brian Og O'Duinn), c. 1593-1661, of Brittas,
    Co. Laois.
    13. _____ Fitzgerald.
    14. Toirdhealbach MacCochlain (Terence Coghlan, MacCoghlan), fl.
    1523, d. 1653; of Kilcolgan Castle, Rachra Castle, etc., Co.
    Offaly.
    15. Mary Dillon, fl. 1635-65.

    16. Tadhg O'Carroll, fl. 1568, d. by 1580; of Lemyvanan (Leap)
    Castle, Co. Offaly.
    17. "a Galway lady."
    18. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, Co. Laois, d. 1606/7.
    19. Elizabeth Fitzgerald.
    20. Sir Theobald Dillon, 1st Viscount Dillon of Costello-Gallen,
    fl. 1582, d. 1624.
    21. Eleanor Tuite, d. 1638.
    22. Sir John Moore, fl. 1560, d. 1631; of Brees, Co. Mayo; Cloghan
    Castle, Co. Offaly, etc.; Clerk of the Crown for Coinnaught.
    23. Mary Burke, d. 1624.
    24. Brian O'Duinn, d. 1614; of Brittas, Co. Laois.
    25. _____ ni Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy).
    26. James Fitzgerald, d. 1602; of Kilrush and Dunmorughell, Co.
    Kildare.
    27. _____ ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
    28. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1591, d. 1642; of Kincora Castle,
    Co. Offaly; Chief of the Sliocht (sept) Fearghaill MacCochlain.
    29. Meadhg ni Maonaigh (Maud O'Mooney).
    30. Robert Dillon, b. c. 1575, fl. 1641; of Cannerstown Castle,
    Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
    31. Margaret Dillon.

    32. Sir William Odhar O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed
    1581.
    33. Sadhbh ni Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick), fl.
    1568.
    36. Tadhg Riabhach (Fuscus, the Swarthy) O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan,
    fl. 1540-72.
    37. _____ ni Muiris (MacMorish).
    38. James Fitzgerald, fl. 1520-61, d. by 1568; of Ballyshannon
    Castle and Blackwood, Co. Kildare.
    39. Katherine Eustace.
    40. Thomas Maol (the Bald) Dillon, fl. 1535; of Ballynakill,
    Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
    42. William Buidhe (the Yellow-Haired) Tuite, fl. 1572-88; of
    Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
    43. Margaret Fitzgerald.
    46. Sir Richard Burke, 2d Earl of Clanricarde, 2d Baron Dunkellin,
    c. 1530-1582.
    47. Margaret O'Brien, d. 1568.
    48-49. same as nos. 18-19.
    50. Cathaoir MacFerganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (Cahir MacFirr O'Molloy),
    of Ballyboy, Co. Offaly.
    52. Sir Maurice Fitzgerald, c. 1526-1575, of Lackagh and
    Norraghbegg, Co. Kildare.
    53. Margaret Butler.
    54-55. same as nos. 18-19.
    56. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1540-57; of Feddan and Kincora, Co.
    Offaly.
    57. Sile ni Diomusaigh (O'Dempsey).
    58. Sean O'Maonaigh (John O'Mooney), of Eskercastle, Co. Offaly.
    60. Thomas Dillon, d. 1593; of Arnacrany and Kilmackeron, Co.
    Westmeath; Chamberlain of the Irish Exchequer.
    61. Margaret Cashell, fl. 1581-88.
    62-63. same as nos. 20-21.

    64. Ferganainm O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed 1541.
    66. Sir Brian Mac Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick),
    Lord of Upper Ossory, 1st Baron Upper Ossory, fl. 1511, d. 1575.
    67. Margaret Butler, fl. 1529-42, d. by 1551.
    72. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1537-41.
    73. Gormliath ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    76. Sir Gerald MacShane Fitzgerald, d. 1533/4; of Cloncurry,
    Blackwood and Ballyshannon Castle, Co. Kildare.
    77. Grainne ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
    78. Sir Thomas Eustace, 1st Viscount Baltinglass, 1st Baron
    Kilcullen, c. 1480-1549.
    79. Margaret Talbot.
    80. James Dillon, an Prior Mor (the Great Prior), fl. 1500-1550;
    of Ballynakill, Dillon's Country, Co. Westmeath; prior in
    commendam of St. John Baptist, Kilkenny West.
    81. _____ Dowling.
    84. Sir Richard Tuite, d. 1565; of Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
    85. Ellen Barnewall.
    86. Gerald (Garret Og) Fitzgerald, d. c. 1541; of Croboy, Co.
    Meath.
    87. Marian St. Lawrence, fl. 1541.
    92. Sir Ulikc Burke (Uilleag na-gCeann, Ulick of the Heads), Lord
    of Clanricarde, 1st Earl of Clanricarde, 1st Baron Dunkellin, d.
    1544.
    93. Grainne ni Cearbhaill (O'Carroll).
    94. Sir Donnchadh Mor (Donough the Fat) O'Brien, 2d Earl of
    Thomond, 1st Baron Ibracken, d. 1553.
    95. Ellen Butler, c. 1520-1597.
    100. Ferganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy), fl. 1558; of Ballyboy,
    Co. Offaly.
    101. Sadhbh ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    104. Thomas Fitzgerald, d. 1553; of Lackagh and Norraghbegg, Co.
    Kildare.
    105. Eleanor Delahide.
    106. The Most Rev. Edmund Butler, O.S. Trin., d. 1551; prior in
    commendam of Athassel, Co. Tipperary; Archbishop of Cashel,
    1525-51.
    112. James Og Maccochlain, d. 1540; of Feddan Castle, Co. Offaly.
    116. Ruaidhri O'Maonaigh (O'Mooney), fl. 1558; of Eskercastle, Co.
    Offaly.
    120. Sir Robert Dillon, c. 1500-1580, of Newtown near Trim, Co.
    Westmeath, and Dublin; Attorney General of Ireland; Justice of the
    Court of Queen's Bench; Chief Justice of the Court of Common
    Pleas, 1559-80.
    121. Genet Barnewall.
    122. Stephen Cashell, fl. 1538, d. 1564; of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
    123. Margaret St. Lawrence.

    128. Maolruanaidh Mor O'Carroll. Lord of Ely O'Carroll, d. 1532.
    129. _____ ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
    132. Brian na-Luireach (Brian of the Shirts of Mail) Mac Giolla
    Phadraig (MacGillapatrick), Lord of Upper Ossory, d. c. 1511.
    133. Noirin (Honora) ni Mordha (O'More).
    134. Sir Piers Ruadh (the Red) Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde, 1st
    Earl of Ossory, c. 1467-1539.
    135. Margaret Fitzgerald, fl. 1485, d. 1542.
    144. Tadhg MacLaighneach O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1475.
    145. Ellin Le Poer.
    146. Cathaoir O'Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley), Lord of
    Offaly, killed 1511.
    142. Sir John (Shane) Fitzgerald, d. 1466; of Cloncurry, Co.
    Kildare.
    143. Fenole ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    154. Gearalt Mac Murchadha Caomhanach (Gerald MacMorough
    Kavanagh), constable of Carlow Castle, 1495.
    156. Sir Richard fitzEustace, fl. 1479-1500; of Harristown Castle,
    Co. Kildare.
    157. Anne FitzEustace.
    158. Sir Peter Talbot, d. 1529; lord of Malahide, Co. Dublin.
    159. Catherine Fitzgerald.
    160. Sir Gerald (Garret) Dillon, of Dunimony Castle, Co.
    Westmeath; fl. 1532.
    161. _____ Fitzgerald.
    168. Sir Edward Tuite, 1467-1531, of Monylea, Co. Westmeath.
    169. Margaret Fitzgerald.
    172. Same as no. 76.
    173. Katherine Plunkett.
    174. Sir Nicholas St. Lawrence, 3d Baron Howth, fl. 1478, d, 1526.
    175. Alice Fitzsimons.
    184. Richard Mor Burke, Lord of Clanricarde, d. 1530.
    185. _____ ni Madain (O'Madden).
    186. Same as no. 128.
    187. _____ ni Ceinedigh Fionn (O'Kennedy Finn).
    188. Conchobhair (Conor) O'Brien, King of Thomond, d. 1539.
    189. Margaret (or Annabel) Burke, d. by 1539.
    190-191. same as nos. 134-135.
    200. Dohnaill O'Maolmuaidh (Donal O'Molloy), of Co. Offaly.
    208. Sir Mauricce Fitzgerald, killed 1520; of Lackagh, Co.
    Kildare; Lord Deputy of Ireland, 1519-20.
    209. Anne FitzEustace.
    210. Sir James Delahide, of Moyclare Castle, Co. Kildare.
    211. Rose Hussey.
    212. same as no. 134.
    213. _____Hackett.
    224. James MacCochlain, killed v.p. 1510; prior of the monastery
    of Gallen, Co. Offaly.
    232. Eoghan O'Maonaigh (Owen O'Mooney).
    240. James Dillon, fl. 1477-79, d. by 1507; of Monktown and
    Riverston, Co. Meath; First Baron of the Irish Exchequer.
    241. Elizabeth Bathe.
    242. Edward Barnewall, d. 1511; of Crickstown Castle and
    Kilmessan, Co. Meath; Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    243. Elizabeth Plunkett.
    244. Leonard Cashell, of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
    246. Sir Christopher St. Lawrence, 4th Baron Howth, c. 1482-1542,
    of Howth, Co. Dublin.
    247. Anne Bermingham, heiress of Baldongan Castle, etc., Co.
    Dublin.


    Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
    &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
    |
    Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
    &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
    |
    Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
    &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
    |
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    |
    Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
    & Ne de Narbonne
    |
    Gerberge du Maine 915-953
    &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960
    |
    Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
    &ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
    |
    Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
    &ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
    |
    Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
    &1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
    |
    Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
    &1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123
    |
    Élisabeth (Capétiens) 1085-1131
    &1118 William, comte de Warenne 1070/-1138
    |
    Reginald de Warenne, Lord of Mortemer †1178/
    & Adeliza de Wormegay, Lady of Wormegay †1179/
    |
    William de Warenne, Lord of Wormegay †1208/1209
    & Béatrice de Pierrepont
    |
    Beatrice de Warenne †/1214
    & Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent †1243
    |
    John de Burgh †1274
    &ca 1227 Hawise de Lanvallay †/1249
    |
    Margaret de Burgh †1304
    &/1281 Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster ca 1259-1326
    |
    Joan de Burgh †1359
    &1329 John le Neveu Darcy, Lord of Knayth †1347
    |
    Anne Darcy †1389
    &1346 James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1331-1382
    |
    Joan Butler †1383
    & Tadhg Aibhle O'Carroll †1407
    |
    Maolruanaidh na feasóige O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll †1443
    & Bibiana O'Dempsey †1490/
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Ne Macnamara
    |
    Mulroney O'Carroll †1532
    & Ne Kavanagh
    |
    Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541
    & Elizabeth Fitzgerald
    |
    William O'Carroll †1581
    & Sabine Fitzpatrick
    |
    Tadhg O'Carroll
    & x x
    |
    Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll †1595
    & Margaret O'Duinn
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Mary Dillon
    |
    Charles O'Carroll †1695
    & Clare Dunne
    |
    Charles Carroll 1691-1755

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Olivier@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 17 04:48:00 2021
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 13:45:24 UTC+1, Olivier a écrit :
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 1:54:13 AM UTC, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 6:56:23 PM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:06:36 PM UTC, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
    There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

    https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

    I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
    So caveat emptor.
    Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

    Nathan
    It would be useful to have their born and death dates alongside the names to help id, as many of them
    are quite common. I was interested in Dr Charles Carroll; is he is the Dr Charles [d1755] who emigrated
    from Ireland in 1715, and went on to establish his family at Mount Clare Md? I'm not sure but it seemed
    that both his sons died childless, if so, any descendants could only come from his daughter Mary Clare
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike

    1. Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757, of Clonlisk, Co. Offaly,
    Ireland, and Annapolis, Md., where he settled c. 1712.

    2. Col.Charles Carroll, b. c. 1635, d. by 1712; of Clonlisk.
    3. Clare Dunne (Clara ni Duinn, O'Duinn), fl. 1691-1712.

    4. John O'Carroll, b. 1596, fl. 1663, of Clonlisk Castle; last
    recognized Lord or Chief of Ely O'Carroll.
    5. Mary Dillon, fl. 1631-63.
    6. Charles Dunne (O'Duinn), c. 1620-1681, of Brittas, Co. Leix.
    7. Margaret Coghlan (ni Cochlain, MacCoghlan).

    8. Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll, killed 1595; of Tewriske, Co.
    Offaly.
    9. Margaret ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
    10. Sir Lucas Dillon, fl. l612-53, d. by 1659; of Loughglynn and Ballymacmorough, Co. Roscommon; member of the Supreme Council of
    the Irish Catholic (Kilkenny) Confderation.
    11. Jane Moore, fl. 1659.
    12. Barnaby Dunne (Brian Og O'Duinn), c. 1593-1661, of Brittas,
    Co. Laois.
    13. _____ Fitzgerald.
    14. Toirdhealbach MacCochlain (Terence Coghlan, MacCoghlan), fl.
    1523, d. 1653; of Kilcolgan Castle, Rachra Castle, etc., Co.
    Offaly.
    15. Mary Dillon, fl. 1635-65.

    16. Tadhg O'Carroll, fl. 1568, d. by 1580; of Lemyvanan (Leap)
    Castle, Co. Offaly.
    17. "a Galway lady."
    18. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, Co. Laois, d. 1606/7.
    19. Elizabeth Fitzgerald.
    20. Sir Theobald Dillon, 1st Viscount Dillon of Costello-Gallen,
    fl. 1582, d. 1624.
    21. Eleanor Tuite, d. 1638.
    22. Sir John Moore, fl. 1560, d. 1631; of Brees, Co. Mayo; Cloghan
    Castle, Co. Offaly, etc.; Clerk of the Crown for Coinnaught.
    23. Mary Burke, d. 1624.
    24. Brian O'Duinn, d. 1614; of Brittas, Co. Laois.
    25. _____ ni Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy).
    26. James Fitzgerald, d. 1602; of Kilrush and Dunmorughell, Co.
    Kildare.
    27. _____ ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
    28. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1591, d. 1642; of Kincora Castle,
    Co. Offaly; Chief of the Sliocht (sept) Fearghaill MacCochlain.
    29. Meadhg ni Maonaigh (Maud O'Mooney).
    30. Robert Dillon, b. c. 1575, fl. 1641; of Cannerstown Castle,
    Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
    31. Margaret Dillon.

    32. Sir William Odhar O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed
    1581.
    33. Sadhbh ni Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick), fl.
    1568.
    36. Tadhg Riabhach (Fuscus, the Swarthy) O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan,
    fl. 1540-72.
    37. _____ ni Muiris (MacMorish).
    38. James Fitzgerald, fl. 1520-61, d. by 1568; of Ballyshannon
    Castle and Blackwood, Co. Kildare.
    39. Katherine Eustace.
    40. Thomas Maol (the Bald) Dillon, fl. 1535; of Ballynakill,
    Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
    42. William Buidhe (the Yellow-Haired) Tuite, fl. 1572-88; of
    Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
    43. Margaret Fitzgerald.
    46. Sir Richard Burke, 2d Earl of Clanricarde, 2d Baron Dunkellin,
    c. 1530-1582.
    47. Margaret O'Brien, d. 1568.
    48-49. same as nos. 18-19.
    50. Cathaoir MacFerganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (Cahir MacFirr O'Molloy),
    of Ballyboy, Co. Offaly.
    52. Sir Maurice Fitzgerald, c. 1526-1575, of Lackagh and
    Norraghbegg, Co. Kildare.
    53. Margaret Butler.
    54-55. same as nos. 18-19.
    56. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1540-57; of Feddan and Kincora, Co.
    Offaly.
    57. Sile ni Diomusaigh (O'Dempsey).
    58. Sean O'Maonaigh (John O'Mooney), of Eskercastle, Co. Offaly.
    60. Thomas Dillon, d. 1593; of Arnacrany and Kilmackeron, Co.
    Westmeath; Chamberlain of the Irish Exchequer.
    61. Margaret Cashell, fl. 1581-88.
    62-63. same as nos. 20-21.

    64. Ferganainm O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed 1541.
    66. Sir Brian Mac Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick),
    Lord of Upper Ossory, 1st Baron Upper Ossory, fl. 1511, d. 1575.
    67. Margaret Butler, fl. 1529-42, d. by 1551.
    72. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1537-41.
    73. Gormliath ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    76. Sir Gerald MacShane Fitzgerald, d. 1533/4; of Cloncurry,
    Blackwood and Ballyshannon Castle, Co. Kildare.
    77. Grainne ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
    78. Sir Thomas Eustace, 1st Viscount Baltinglass, 1st Baron
    Kilcullen, c. 1480-1549.
    79. Margaret Talbot.
    80. James Dillon, an Prior Mor (the Great Prior), fl. 1500-1550;
    of Ballynakill, Dillon's Country, Co. Westmeath; prior in
    commendam of St. John Baptist, Kilkenny West.
    81. _____ Dowling.
    84. Sir Richard Tuite, d. 1565; of Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
    85. Ellen Barnewall.
    86. Gerald (Garret Og) Fitzgerald, d. c. 1541; of Croboy, Co.
    Meath.
    87. Marian St. Lawrence, fl. 1541.
    92. Sir Ulikc Burke (Uilleag na-gCeann, Ulick of the Heads), Lord
    of Clanricarde, 1st Earl of Clanricarde, 1st Baron Dunkellin, d.
    1544.
    93. Grainne ni Cearbhaill (O'Carroll).
    94. Sir Donnchadh Mor (Donough the Fat) O'Brien, 2d Earl of
    Thomond, 1st Baron Ibracken, d. 1553.
    95. Ellen Butler, c. 1520-1597.
    100. Ferganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy), fl. 1558; of Ballyboy,
    Co. Offaly.
    101. Sadhbh ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    104. Thomas Fitzgerald, d. 1553; of Lackagh and Norraghbegg, Co.
    Kildare.
    105. Eleanor Delahide.
    106. The Most Rev. Edmund Butler, O.S. Trin., d. 1551; prior in
    commendam of Athassel, Co. Tipperary; Archbishop of Cashel,
    1525-51.
    112. James Og Maccochlain, d. 1540; of Feddan Castle, Co. Offaly.
    116. Ruaidhri O'Maonaigh (O'Mooney), fl. 1558; of Eskercastle, Co.
    Offaly.
    120. Sir Robert Dillon, c. 1500-1580, of Newtown near Trim, Co.
    Westmeath, and Dublin; Attorney General of Ireland; Justice of the
    Court of Queen's Bench; Chief Justice of the Court of Common
    Pleas, 1559-80.
    121. Genet Barnewall.
    122. Stephen Cashell, fl. 1538, d. 1564; of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
    123. Margaret St. Lawrence.

    128. Maolruanaidh Mor O'Carroll. Lord of Ely O'Carroll, d. 1532.
    129. _____ ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
    132. Brian na-Luireach (Brian of the Shirts of Mail) Mac Giolla
    Phadraig (MacGillapatrick), Lord of Upper Ossory, d. c. 1511.
    133. Noirin (Honora) ni Mordha (O'More).
    134. Sir Piers Ruadh (the Red) Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde, 1st
    Earl of Ossory, c. 1467-1539.
    135. Margaret Fitzgerald, fl. 1485, d. 1542.
    144. Tadhg MacLaighneach O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1475.
    145. Ellin Le Poer.
    146. Cathaoir O'Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley), Lord of
    Offaly, killed 1511.
    142. Sir John (Shane) Fitzgerald, d. 1466; of Cloncurry, Co.
    Kildare.
    143. Fenole ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
    154. Gearalt Mac Murchadha Caomhanach (Gerald MacMorough
    Kavanagh), constable of Carlow Castle, 1495.
    156. Sir Richard fitzEustace, fl. 1479-1500; of Harristown Castle,
    Co. Kildare.
    157. Anne FitzEustace.
    158. Sir Peter Talbot, d. 1529; lord of Malahide, Co. Dublin.
    159. Catherine Fitzgerald.
    160. Sir Gerald (Garret) Dillon, of Dunimony Castle, Co.
    Westmeath; fl. 1532.
    161. _____ Fitzgerald.
    168. Sir Edward Tuite, 1467-1531, of Monylea, Co. Westmeath.
    169. Margaret Fitzgerald.
    172. Same as no. 76.
    173. Katherine Plunkett.
    174. Sir Nicholas St. Lawrence, 3d Baron Howth, fl. 1478, d, 1526.
    175. Alice Fitzsimons.
    184. Richard Mor Burke, Lord of Clanricarde, d. 1530.
    185. _____ ni Madain (O'Madden).
    186. Same as no. 128.
    187. _____ ni Ceinedigh Fionn (O'Kennedy Finn).
    188. Conchobhair (Conor) O'Brien, King of Thomond, d. 1539.
    189. Margaret (or Annabel) Burke, d. by 1539.
    190-191. same as nos. 134-135.
    200. Dohnaill O'Maolmuaidh (Donal O'Molloy), of Co. Offaly.
    208. Sir Mauricce Fitzgerald, killed 1520; of Lackagh, Co.
    Kildare; Lord Deputy of Ireland, 1519-20.
    209. Anne FitzEustace.
    210. Sir James Delahide, of Moyclare Castle, Co. Kildare.
    211. Rose Hussey.
    212. same as no. 134.
    213. _____Hackett.
    224. James MacCochlain, killed v.p. 1510; prior of the monastery
    of Gallen, Co. Offaly.
    232. Eoghan O'Maonaigh (Owen O'Mooney).
    240. James Dillon, fl. 1477-79, d. by 1507; of Monktown and
    Riverston, Co. Meath; First Baron of the Irish Exchequer.
    241. Elizabeth Bathe.
    242. Edward Barnewall, d. 1511; of Crickstown Castle and
    Kilmessan, Co. Meath; Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    243. Elizabeth Plunkett.
    244. Leonard Cashell, of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
    246. Sir Christopher St. Lawrence, 4th Baron Howth, c. 1482-1542,
    of Howth, Co. Dublin.
    247. Anne Bermingham, heiress of Baldongan Castle, etc., Co.
    Dublin.
    Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
    &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
    |
    Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
    &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
    |
    Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
    &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
    |
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    |
    Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
    & Ne de Narbonne
    |
    Gerberge du Maine 915-953
    &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960
    |
    Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
    &ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
    |
    Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
    &ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
    |
    Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
    &1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
    |
    Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
    &1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123
    |
    Élisabeth (Capétiens) 1085-1131
    &1118 William, comte de Warenne 1070/-1138
    |
    Reginald de Warenne, Lord of Mortemer †1178/
    & Adeliza de Wormegay, Lady of Wormegay †1179/
    |
    William de Warenne, Lord of Wormegay †1208/1209
    & Béatrice de Pierrepont
    |
    Beatrice de Warenne †/1214
    & Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent †1243
    |
    John de Burgh †1274
    &ca 1227 Hawise de Lanvallay †/1249
    |
    Margaret de Burgh †1304
    &/1281 Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster ca 1259-1326
    |
    Joan de Burgh †1359
    &1312 Thomas FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare †1328
    |
    Maurice FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare ?1318-1390
    & Elizabeth de Burghersh
    |
    John Cam FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare †1434
    & Margaret de La Herne
    |
    Thomas The Great Earl FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare †1478
    & Joan Cam FitzGerald †1486
    |
    Gerald Mor The Great Earl FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare 1456-1513
    & Alice Eustace †1495
    |
    Garret Öge FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare 1487-1534
    & Elizabeth La Zouche †1517
    |
    Elizabeth Fitzgerald
    & Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541
    |
    William O'Carroll †1581
    & Sabine Fitzpatrick
    |
    Tadhg O'Carroll
    & x x
    |
    Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll †1595
    & Margaret O'Duinn
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Mary Dillon
    |
    Charles O'Carroll †1695
    & Clare Dunne
    |
    Charles Carroll 1691-1755

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Heiden@21:1/5 to mike davis on Fri Dec 17 08:11:38 2021
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:30:33 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike
    <snip>
    Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
    &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
    |
    Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
    &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
    |
    Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
    &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
    |
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    very good of you to post this descent, but I havnt seen this daughter mentioned before.
    AIUI, Charles had 4 daughters by his 1st wife: Judith, Hildegarde, Ermintrude & Gisela
    |
    Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
    & Ne de Narbonne
    |
    Gerberge du Maine 915-953
    &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960
    I thought Fulks wife was Roscille de Loches

    Mike
    |
    Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
    &ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
    |
    Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
    &ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
    |
    Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
    &1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
    |
    Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
    &1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123
    |
    Élisabeth (Capétiens) 1085-1131
    &1118 William, comte de Warenne 1070/-1138
    |
    Reginald de Warenne, Lord of Mortemer †1178/
    & Adeliza de Wormegay, Lady of Wormegay †1179/
    |
    William de Warenne, Lord of Wormegay †1208/1209
    & Béatrice de Pierrepont
    |
    Beatrice de Warenne †/1214
    & Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent †1243
    |
    John de Burgh †1274
    &ca 1227 Hawise de Lanvallay †/1249
    |
    Margaret de Burgh †1304
    &/1281 Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster ca 1259-1326
    |
    Joan de Burgh †1359
    &1329 John le Neveu Darcy, Lord of Knayth †1347
    |
    Anne Darcy †1389
    &1346 James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1331-1382
    |
    Joan Butler †1383
    & Tadhg Aibhle O'Carroll †1407
    |
    Maolruanaidh na feasóige O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll †1443
    & Bibiana O'Dempsey †1490/
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Ne Macnamara
    |
    Mulroney O'Carroll †1532
    & Ne Kavanagh
    |
    Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541
    & Elizabeth Fitzgerald
    |
    William O'Carroll †1581
    & Sabine Fitzpatrick
    |
    Tadhg O'Carroll
    & x x
    |
    Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll †1595
    & Margaret O'Duinn
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Mary Dillon
    |
    Charles O'Carroll †1695
    & Clare Dunne
    |
    Charles Carroll 1691-1755

    If this is one of one of my potential lines
    Johanna Richards 1621 (w/o Ens. John Spring, 1678), MA
    Mary Colburn, 1650, MA
    Nathaniel Colburn, 1589, Eng & MA
    Benjamin Colburn, 1589
    Betha Boleyn, ?-1694
    Samuel Boleyn, 1617
    Samuel Boleyn, 1591
    George Boleyn, 1537
    George Boleyn, 1504
    Thomas Boleyn
    Margaret Butler
    Thomas 7th Butler
    James 4th Butler
    James 3rd Butler
    James 2nd Butler
    Eleanor de Bohun >
    Elizabeth Plantagenet >
    Edward I Longshanks, King of England

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From mike davis@21:1/5 to Olivier on Fri Dec 17 07:30:31 2021
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike
    <snip>

    Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
    &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
    |
    Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
    &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
    |
    Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
    &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
    |
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907

    very good of you to post this descent, but I havnt seen this daughter mentioned before.
    AIUI, Charles had 4 daughters by his 1st wife: Judith, Hildegarde, Ermintrude & Gisela

    |
    Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
    & Ne de Narbonne
    |
    Gerberge du Maine 915-953
    &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960

    I thought Fulks wife was Roscille de Loches

    Mike

    |
    Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
    &ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
    |
    Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
    &ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
    |
    Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
    &1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
    |
    Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
    &1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123
    |
    Élisabeth (Capétiens) 1085-1131
    &1118 William, comte de Warenne 1070/-1138
    |
    Reginald de Warenne, Lord of Mortemer †1178/
    & Adeliza de Wormegay, Lady of Wormegay †1179/
    |
    William de Warenne, Lord of Wormegay †1208/1209
    & Béatrice de Pierrepont
    |
    Beatrice de Warenne †/1214
    & Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent †1243
    |
    John de Burgh †1274
    &ca 1227 Hawise de Lanvallay †/1249
    |
    Margaret de Burgh †1304
    &/1281 Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster ca 1259-1326
    |
    Joan de Burgh †1359
    &1329 John le Neveu Darcy, Lord of Knayth †1347
    |
    Anne Darcy †1389
    &1346 James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1331-1382
    |
    Joan Butler †1383
    & Tadhg Aibhle O'Carroll †1407
    |
    Maolruanaidh na feasóige O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll †1443
    & Bibiana O'Dempsey †1490/
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Ne Macnamara
    |
    Mulroney O'Carroll †1532
    & Ne Kavanagh
    |
    Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541
    & Elizabeth Fitzgerald
    |
    William O'Carroll †1581
    & Sabine Fitzpatrick
    |
    Tadhg O'Carroll
    & x x
    |
    Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll †1595
    & Margaret O'Duinn
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Mary Dillon
    |
    Charles O'Carroll †1695
    & Clare Dunne
    |
    Charles Carroll 1691-1755

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Olivier@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 17 09:29:41 2021
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 16:30:33 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike
    <snip>
    Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
    &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
    |
    Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
    &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
    |
    Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
    &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
    |
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    very good of you to post this descent, but I havnt seen this daughter mentioned before.
    AIUI, Charles had 4 daughters by his 1st wife: Judith, Hildegarde, Ermintrude & Gisela
    |
    Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
    & Ne de Narbonne
    |
    Gerberge du Maine 915-953
    &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960
    I thought Fulks wife was Roscille de Loches

    Mike

    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ANJOU,%20MAINE.htm#_ftnref61

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leslie Mahler@21:1/5 to dahe...@gmail.com on Fri Dec 17 11:18:52 2021
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 8:11:40 AM UTC-8, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:30:33 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike
    <snip>
    Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
    &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
    |
    Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
    &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
    |
    Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
    &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
    |
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    very good of you to post this descent, but I havnt seen this daughter mentioned before.
    AIUI, Charles had 4 daughters by his 1st wife: Judith, Hildegarde, Ermintrude & Gisela
    |
    Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
    & Ne de Narbonne
    |
    Gerberge du Maine 915-953
    &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960
    I thought Fulks wife was Roscille de Loches

    Mike
    |
    Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
    &ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
    |
    Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
    &ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
    |
    Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
    &1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
    |
    Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
    &1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123
    |
    Élisabeth (Capétiens) 1085-1131
    &1118 William, comte de Warenne 1070/-1138
    |
    Reginald de Warenne, Lord of Mortemer †1178/
    & Adeliza de Wormegay, Lady of Wormegay †1179/
    |
    William de Warenne, Lord of Wormegay †1208/1209
    & Béatrice de Pierrepont
    |
    Beatrice de Warenne †/1214
    & Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent †1243
    |
    John de Burgh †1274
    &ca 1227 Hawise de Lanvallay †/1249
    |
    Margaret de Burgh †1304
    &/1281 Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster ca 1259-1326
    |
    Joan de Burgh †1359
    &1329 John le Neveu Darcy, Lord of Knayth †1347
    |
    Anne Darcy †1389
    &1346 James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1331-1382
    |
    Joan Butler †1383
    & Tadhg Aibhle O'Carroll †1407
    |
    Maolruanaidh na feasóige O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll †1443
    & Bibiana O'Dempsey †1490/
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Ne Macnamara
    |
    Mulroney O'Carroll †1532
    & Ne Kavanagh
    |
    Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541
    & Elizabeth Fitzgerald
    |
    William O'Carroll †1581
    & Sabine Fitzpatrick
    |
    Tadhg O'Carroll
    & x x
    |
    Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll †1595
    & Margaret O'Duinn
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Mary Dillon
    |
    Charles O'Carroll †1695
    & Clare Dunne
    |
    Charles Carroll 1691-1755
    If this is one of one of my potential lines
    Johanna Richards 1621 (w/o Ens. John Spring, 1678), MA
    Mary Colburn, 1650, MA
    Nathaniel Colburn, 1589, Eng & MA
    Benjamin Colburn, 1589
    Betha Boleyn, ?-1694
    Samuel Boleyn, 1617
    Samuel Boleyn, 1591
    George Boleyn, 1537
    George Boleyn, 1504
    Thomas Boleyn
    Margaret Butler
    Thomas 7th Butler
    James 4th Butler
    James 3rd Butler
    James 2nd Butler
    Eleanor de Bohun >
    Elizabeth Plantagenet >
    Edward I Longshanks, King of England


    The ancestry of Nathaniel Colburn, who was baptized in 1611,
    not 1589, was documented back in 1999. He was a son of
    Leonard Colborne of Woolverstone, Suffolk. The rest of the lineage
    posted here looks like undocumented rubbish.

    If you rely on unsourced material on the internet,
    you're going to fail every time.

    Leslie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to dahe...@gmail.com on Fri Dec 17 13:22:45 2021
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 8:11:40 AM UTC-8, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:30:33 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike
    <snip>

    [unrelated line snipped]

    If this is one of one of my potential lines
    Johanna Richards 1621 (w/o Ens. John Spring, 1678), MA
    Mary Colburn, 1650, MA
    Nathaniel Colburn, 1589, Eng & MA
    Benjamin Colburn, 1589
    Betha Boleyn, ?-1694
    Samuel Boleyn, 1617
    Samuel Boleyn, 1591
    George Boleyn, 1537
    George Boleyn, 1504
    Thomas Boleyn
    Margaret Butler
    Thomas 7th Butler
    James 4th Butler
    James 3rd Butler
    James 2nd Butler
    Eleanor de Bohun >
    Elizabeth Plantagenet >
    Edward I Longshanks, King of England

    Thomas Boleyn, son of Margaret Butler, is certainly Sir Thomas Boleyn, father of Queen Anne Boleyn. His son George was beheaded at roughly the same time as his sister the Queen - and is well-documented to have had no issue. so the Boleyns said to be
    descended from him are clearly garbage - or at least not related to the first George.

    As Leslie Mahler said: "If you rely on unsourced material on the internet, you're going to fail every time."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Fri Dec 17 13:32:35 2021
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
    Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
    I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated. However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.

    I ask again:

    Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an "upcoming article"?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Olivier on Sat Dec 18 10:31:27 2021
    On 17-Dec-21 11:45 PM, Olivier wrote:

    <snip>

    Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
    &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
    |
    Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
    &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
    |
    Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
    &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
    |
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907

    I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever
    you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter
    named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named
    Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde
    who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly
    interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable
    named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi,
    though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).

    |
    Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
    & Ne de Narbonne
    |
    Gerberge du Maine 915-953
    &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960

    Ditto for wherever (if not the same) you came across this imaginary
    genealogy - Gerberge the wife of Fulco II of Anjou is the subject of
    various conjectures, but her family origin remains unknown.

    Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
    &ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
    |
    Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
    &ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
    |
    Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
    &1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
    |
    Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
    &1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123

    Datings given in your lineage are not much more accurate than the identifications - Hugues of Vermandois died of battle wounds at Tarsus
    on 18 October 1101, not in the following year.

    Peter Stewart






    |
    Élisabeth (Capétiens) 1085-1131
    &1118 William, comte de Warenne 1070/-1138
    |
    Reginald de Warenne, Lord of Mortemer †1178/
    & Adeliza de Wormegay, Lady of Wormegay †1179/
    |
    William de Warenne, Lord of Wormegay †1208/1209
    & Béatrice de Pierrepont
    |
    Beatrice de Warenne †/1214
    & Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent †1243
    |
    John de Burgh †1274
    &ca 1227 Hawise de Lanvallay †/1249
    |
    Margaret de Burgh †1304
    &/1281 Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster ca 1259-1326
    |
    Joan de Burgh †1359
    &1329 John le Neveu Darcy, Lord of Knayth †1347
    |
    Anne Darcy †1389
    &1346 James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1331-1382
    |
    Joan Butler †1383
    & Tadhg Aibhle O'Carroll †1407
    |
    Maolruanaidh na feasóige O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll †1443
    & Bibiana O'Dempsey †1490/
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Ne Macnamara
    |
    Mulroney O'Carroll †1532
    & Ne Kavanagh
    |
    Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541
    & Elizabeth Fitzgerald
    |
    William O'Carroll †1581
    & Sabine Fitzpatrick
    |
    Tadhg O'Carroll
    & x x
    |
    Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll †1595
    & Margaret O'Duinn
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Mary Dillon
    |
    Charles O'Carroll †1695
    & Clare Dunne
    |
    Charles Carroll 1691-1755

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Heiden@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 17 16:53:55 2021
    What about the Whitney line I have a John Whitney 1588/Eleanor Arnold with two sons John and Joshua

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 17 17:01:42 2021
    A quinta-feira, 16 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 01:21:25 UTC, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
    Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
    I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated. However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.
    Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article?
    Sorry. I hadn't noticed your reply. Martin Hollick informed me of this. It's by a friend of his who got a PhD in history and also loves genealogy. He wrote the article on Susannah Jackson White Winslow in 2018 in The American Genealogist. The upcoming
    article is presumably in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, though

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Heiden@21:1/5 to Leslie Mahler on Fri Dec 17 16:39:01 2021
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 2:18:53 PM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 8:11:40 AM UTC-8, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:30:33 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
    from Charlemagne?
    Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757 https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

    Joe Cook
    Thanks for pointing out this line
    Assuming the original poster was correct,
    is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
    was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
    Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
    who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

    Mike
    <snip>
    Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
    &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
    |
    Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
    &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
    |
    Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
    &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
    |
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    very good of you to post this descent, but I havnt seen this daughter mentioned before.
    AIUI, Charles had 4 daughters by his 1st wife: Judith, Hildegarde, Ermintrude & Gisela
    |
    Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
    & Ne de Narbonne
    |
    Gerberge du Maine 915-953
    &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960
    I thought Fulks wife was Roscille de Loches

    Mike
    |
    Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
    &ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
    |
    Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
    &ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
    |
    Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
    &1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
    |
    Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
    &1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123
    |
    Élisabeth (Capétiens) 1085-1131
    &1118 William, comte de Warenne 1070/-1138
    |
    Reginald de Warenne, Lord of Mortemer †1178/
    & Adeliza de Wormegay, Lady of Wormegay †1179/
    |
    William de Warenne, Lord of Wormegay †1208/1209
    & Béatrice de Pierrepont
    |
    Beatrice de Warenne †/1214
    & Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent †1243
    |
    John de Burgh †1274
    &ca 1227 Hawise de Lanvallay †/1249
    |
    Margaret de Burgh †1304
    &/1281 Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster ca 1259-1326
    |
    Joan de Burgh †1359
    &1329 John le Neveu Darcy, Lord of Knayth †1347
    |
    Anne Darcy †1389
    &1346 James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1331-1382
    |
    Joan Butler †1383
    & Tadhg Aibhle O'Carroll †1407
    |
    Maolruanaidh na feasóige O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll †1443
    & Bibiana O'Dempsey †1490/
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Ne Macnamara
    |
    Mulroney O'Carroll †1532
    & Ne Kavanagh
    |
    Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541
    & Elizabeth Fitzgerald
    |
    William O'Carroll †1581
    & Sabine Fitzpatrick
    |
    Tadhg O'Carroll
    & x x
    |
    Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll †1595
    & Margaret O'Duinn
    |
    John O'Carroll
    & Mary Dillon
    |
    Charles O'Carroll †1695
    & Clare Dunne
    |
    Charles Carroll 1691-1755
    If this is one of one of my potential lines
    Johanna Richards 1621 (w/o Ens. John Spring, 1678), MA
    Mary Colburn, 1650, MA
    Nathaniel Colburn, 1589, Eng & MA
    Benjamin Colburn, 1589
    Betha Boleyn, ?-1694
    Samuel Boleyn, 1617
    Samuel Boleyn, 1591
    George Boleyn, 1537
    George Boleyn, 1504
    Thomas Boleyn
    Margaret Butler
    Thomas 7th Butler
    James 4th Butler
    James 3rd Butler
    James 2nd Butler
    Eleanor de Bohun >
    Elizabeth Plantagenet >
    Edward I Longshanks, King of England
    The ancestry of Nathaniel Colburn, who was baptized in 1611,
    not 1589, was documented back in 1999. He was a son of
    Leonard Colborne of Woolverstone, Suffolk. The rest of the lineage
    posted here looks like undocumented rubbish.

    If you rely on unsourced material on the internet,
    you're going to fail every time.

    Leslie

    Do you have Nathaniel’s line? I’m certain about his daughter Mary’s line to me. She married John Richards, their daughter Johanna married John Spring.

    https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/25287/images/dvm_GenMono006566-00045-0?pId=80

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Olivier@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 18 03:34:35 2021
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever
    you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter
    named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named
    Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde
    who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly
    interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable
    named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi, though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).


    Source : https://www.theses.fr/2010LEMA3010

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 18 09:39:44 2021
    This next George Bolyn 1537 is clearly meant to be this man

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Boleyn,_George_(d.1603)

    There *is* a theory that he is a son of the prior George, as per this article.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Sat Dec 18 10:34:48 2021
    On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 9:39:45 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    This next George Bolyn 1537 is clearly meant to be this man

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Boleyn,_George_(d.1603)

    There *is* a theory that he is a son of the prior George, as per this article.

    Here is what CP (vol. 10 p. 142 note e) has to say about the article in the turn-of-the century edition of DNB cited above:

    "The Dict. Nat. Biog. states that George Boleyn, Dean of Lichfield (d. 1603), was not improbably his son [referring to George Boleyn, Viscount Rochford], but the arguments for this affiliation are inconclusive."

    Here is what the more recent [online] edition of ODNB says about this George Boleyn. The article from which this section is excerpted is dated 3 January 2008.

    "Boleyn, George (d. 1603), dean of Lichfield, is often said to have been the son of Jane Boleyn, née Parker (d. 1542), and George Boleyn, Viscount Rochford, executed in 1536 on a charge of incest with his sister, Queen Anne Boleyn. In his will of 1603,
    George Boleyn refers to Sir William Knollys, grandson of Mary Boleyn, Queen Anne's sister, as his kinsman, but the fact that Rochford's inquisition post-mortem names Mary, rather than George, as his heir throws doubt on the supposition that George was
    his son, or at any rate on George's legitimacy. Considering the Boleyn family's difficult political position in the years after the queen's execution, it is perhaps not surprising that George's ancestry should have remained unacknowledged, and that he
    seems to have been bitter about the loss of his inheritance."

    Draw your own conclusions... It would be useful to know what sources say about the descent from this George Boleyn - and what those sources say about the parentage of this George Boleyn.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sat Dec 18 10:42:39 2021
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A quinta-feira, 16 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 01:21:25 UTC, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of
    ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
    Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
    I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated. However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.
    Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article?
    Sorry. I hadn't noticed your reply. Martin Hollick informed me of this. It's by a friend of his who got a PhD in history and also loves genealogy. He wrote the article on Susannah Jackson White Winslow in 2018 in The American Genealogist. The upcoming
    article is presumably in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, though

    Thanks for this information. However, I've checked the table of contents for each issue of TAG in 2018 and I can find no indication of an article regarding Susannah Jackson White Winslow. The table of contents for each of the issues of TAG for 2018 can
    be found at this website (each is a PDF): https://americangenealogist.com/contents/recent-issues/

    Can you help? Are you sure you've got the right magazine for the 2018 article?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JBrand@21:1/5 to jhigg...@yahoo.com on Sat Dec 18 11:07:03 2021
    On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 1:42:40 PM UTC-5, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A quinta-feira, 16 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 01:21:25 UTC, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group
    of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
    I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated. However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.
    Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article?
    Sorry. I hadn't noticed your reply. Martin Hollick informed me of this. It's by a friend of his who got a PhD in history and also loves genealogy. He wrote the article on Susannah Jackson White Winslow in 2018 in The American Genealogist. The
    upcoming article is presumably in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, though
    Thanks for this information. However, I've checked the table of contents for each issue of TAG in 2018 and I can find no indication of an article regarding Susannah Jackson White Winslow. The table of contents for each of the issues of TAG for 2018 can
    be found at this website (each is a PDF):
    https://americangenealogist.com/contents/recent-issues/

    Can you help? Are you sure you've got the right magazine for the 2018 article?

    Oct. 2017 issue. The authors are Sue Allan, Caleb Johnson (FASG), and Simon Neal.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to JBrand on Sat Dec 18 15:54:39 2021
    On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:07:05 AM UTC-8, JBrand wrote:
    On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 1:42:40 PM UTC-5, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A quinta-feira, 16 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 01:21:25 UTC, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large
    group of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
    I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated.
    However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.
    Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article?
    Sorry. I hadn't noticed your reply. Martin Hollick informed me of this. It's by a friend of his who got a PhD in history and also loves genealogy. He wrote the article on Susannah Jackson White Winslow in 2018 in The American Genealogist. The
    upcoming article is presumably in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, though
    Thanks for this information. However, I've checked the table of contents for each issue of TAG in 2018 and I can find no indication of an article regarding Susannah Jackson White Winslow. The table of contents for each of the issues of TAG for 2018
    can be found at this website (each is a PDF):
    https://americangenealogist.com/contents/recent-issues/

    Can you help? Are you sure you've got the right magazine for the 2018 article?
    Oct. 2017 issue. The authors are Sue Allan, Caleb Johnson (FASG), and Simon Neal.

    Thanks, John - I found the article.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 18 16:28:55 2021
    A sábado, 18 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 18:42:40 UTC, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
    On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A quinta-feira, 16 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 01:21:25 UTC, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
    I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group
    of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be
    considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

    Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
    Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

    Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
    Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

    Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
    Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

    John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
    Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
    Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

    Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
    Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
    Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

    Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
    Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
    Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

    James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
    Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

    Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
    Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
    Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
    I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated. However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.
    Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article?
    Sorry. I hadn't noticed your reply. Martin Hollick informed me of this. It's by a friend of his who got a PhD in history and also loves genealogy. He wrote the article on Susannah Jackson White Winslow in 2018 in The American Genealogist. The
    upcoming article is presumably in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, though
    Thanks for this information. However, I've checked the table of contents for each issue of TAG in 2018 and I can find no indication of an article regarding Susannah Jackson White Winslow. The table of contents for each of the issues of TAG for 2018 can
    be found at this website (each is a PDF):
    https://americangenealogist.com/contents/recent-issues/

    Can you help? Are you sure you've got the right magazine for the 2018 article?

    Sorry, Martin Hollick told me this in 2020 and said the article had been 3 years earlier. I counted from 2021 though, giving me 2018, instead of 2017.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From mike davis@21:1/5 to Olivier on Tue Dec 21 07:02:21 2021
    On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:34:36 AM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named
    Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde
    who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi, though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).

    Source : https://www.theses.fr/2010LEMA3010

    I was unable to search this doc, so couldnt find the maine connection. A lot
    of the charts and trees look like theyve been copied from Settipani/Chaume etc but without the dotted lines. However I think there is a carolingian descent for the counts of Maine but via Rothildis the daughter of Richildis and
    Charles the Bald who I believe is assumed to have married Rotgar/Roger II
    of Le Mans, and their son was Hugo I of Maine. I'm not sure of the details but I
    think it was Werner who established this. Perhaps someone with access
    to the relevant volume of Karl der Grosse [1965] can confirm.

    Mike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From christine lebas@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 22 15:18:17 2021
    Le mardi 21 décembre 2021 à 16:02:24 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:34:36 AM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi, though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).

    Source : https://www.theses.fr/2010LEMA3010
    I was unable to search this doc, so couldnt find the maine connection. A lot of the charts and trees look like theyve been copied from Settipani/Chaume etc
    but without the dotted lines. However I think there is a carolingian descent for the counts of Maine but via Rothildis the daughter of Richildis and Charles the Bald who I believe is assumed to have married Rotgar/Roger II
    of Le Mans, and their son was Hugo I of Maine. I'm not sure of the details but I
    think it was Werner who established this. Perhaps someone with access
    to the relevant volume of Karl der Grosse [1965] can confirm.

    Mike
    There are 2 pdf :
    http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Hans Vogels@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 25 00:38:45 2021
    Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
    Le mardi 21 décembre 2021 à 16:02:24 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
    On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:34:36 AM UTC, Olivier wrote:
    Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
    &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
    I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever
    you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter
    named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi,
    though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).

    Source : https://www.theses.fr/2010LEMA3010
    I was unable to search this doc, so couldnt find the maine connection. A lot
    of the charts and trees look like theyve been copied from Settipani/Chaume etc
    but without the dotted lines. However I think there is a carolingian descent
    for the counts of Maine but via Rothildis the daughter of Richildis and Charles the Bald who I believe is assumed to have married Rotgar/Roger II of Le Mans, and their son was Hugo I of Maine. I'm not sure of the details but I
    think it was Werner who established this. Perhaps someone with access
    to the relevant volume of Karl der Grosse [1965] can confirm.

    Mike
    There are 2 pdf : http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf

    Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
    Not something you browse easily through.
    Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).

    Hans Vogels

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  • From Stewart Baldwin@21:1/5 to hansvog...@gmail.com on Sat Dec 25 19:46:33 2021
    On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
    Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
    There are 2 pdf : http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf
    Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
    Not something you browse easily through.
    Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).

    There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually
    contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.

    Stewart Baldwin

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  • From mike davis@21:1/5 to Stewart Baldwin on Tue Dec 28 15:41:57 2021
    On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 3:46:35 AM UTC, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
    On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
    Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
    There are 2 pdf : http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf
    Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
    Not something you browse easily through.
    Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).
    There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually
    contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.


    Sifting through this is like entering a sort of onomastic hell! However I dont think
    this author is the source for the Carolingian-Maine-Gatinais connection as proposed
    earlier. The origin of the Counts of the Gatinais who became ancestors of the plantagenets is a vexed question with a number of theories being proposed.

    I hadnt seen the Charles the Bald -- supposed daughter -- Count of Maine --- Count of Gatinais theory before, but Doumerc the author here proposes something quite different. He mentions Settipani's theory that the origin of the Gatinais family
    was Gausfred Count of Nevers 935-40, who was maybe the same as a contemporary viscount of Orleans, but he suggests a very different ancestry for Gausfred.

    Instead Doumerc [p579-83] says Gausfred was descended from Bernard Marquis
    de Gothia 865-78 [d880]. He says BdG was father of a woman called Ema who had a quarrel with Adalgar Bishop of Autun in 889. This Ema he says was the same as
    the Hemmena wife of a Waldric who were the parents of Waldric bishop of Auxerre
    918-33. Gausfred of Nevers was Bishop Waldrics brother. He then postulates that
    Gausbert Bishop of Nevers 948-55 was another brother, and a another was called Bernard. Furthermore, Eva the wife of Gausfred of Nevers was the niece of William
    the Pious, which he references from Settipani's work on Aquitaine which I havnt seen. This is rather dense reading matter so I hope I havnt misrepresented anything.

    This all seems highly speculative. Plus I believe Gausbert bishop of Nevers
    is called the brother of Guy Bishop of Auxerre 933-61, and Guys parents are named as Boso and Abigail in the Deeds of the Bishops of Auxerre, something Doumerc mentions but disregards. Often these sort of works seem to confuse matters further rather than clarifying.

    Despite this in arbre 103 & 104 in vol2, he has, I assume, Settipani's version of
    Gausfred of Nevers descent:

    Gausfred of Maine d878
    |
    Gausfred I vct of Orleans 885/6
    |
    Gausfred II vct of Orleans, Count of Nevers & Auxerre 935-36

    In arbre 99 there is also this

    Ermentrude [sister of Charles the simple] m Count Gausbert fl912
    |
    Cunegunde m Wigeric

    Merry Xmas

    Mike

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  • From Gail Peterson@21:1/5 to ravinma...@yahoo.com on Fri Jan 7 07:32:04 2022
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 1:48:05 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

    This looks to me like the table of contents from Gary Boyd Roberts' _Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants_, with everyone who arrived after about 1700 removed. There are a few additions or differences (for instance, Humphrey Warren is not shown in RD900
    with a royal line, though Gary provides a brief discussion of the problems with the claimed line). Notice that the French Canadians in Gary's book have been interspersed at the appropriate alphabetical point.

    So there are "problems" with Humphrey Warren's line? I thought that line was pretty solid and well-documented.

    ~Gail

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  • From Gail Peterson@21:1/5 to Gail Peterson on Sat Jan 8 08:07:43 2022
    On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 10:32:05 AM UTC-5, Gail Peterson wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 1:48:05 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

    This looks to me like the table of contents from Gary Boyd Roberts' _Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants_, with everyone who arrived after about 1700 removed. There are a few additions or differences (for instance, Humphrey Warren is not shown in RD900
    with a royal line, though Gary provides a brief discussion of the problems with the claimed line). Notice that the French Canadians in Gary's book have been interspersed at the appropriate alphabetical point.

    So there are "problems" with Humphrey Warren's line? I thought that line was pretty solid and well-documented.

    ~Gail
    Never mind--I found the previous discussion on the subject. Sorry for jumping the gun here..
    ~Gail

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