I have another colonial Warren question. This pertains to the ancestry of my 2nd great-grandfather, William Truman Warren a part Ojibwe who was born in 1855 at Crow Wing, Minnesota to James Warren and Sophia Warren. Sophia Warren once wrote in a history
of the family that the two Warren families were unrelated. I have been able to successfully trace James Warren’s ancestry to gateway ancestor, Humphrey Warren (1632-1674) of Virginia.

However, the distaff side has been giving me fits for the past two years. I have traced Sophia Warren through father Lyman Marcus Warren, to Lyman B Warren who was a son of Abraham Warren born 1747 in Bristol, Hartford, Connecticut. Abraham fought in the
Rev War and died in 1823 in Albany, New York. He is recorded with DAR who lists his parents as a Capt Elisha Warren and Rhoda Andrews. Elisha died intestate in Farmington, Hartford, Connecticut, but probate of his estate does list his widow Rhoda and the
following children: Abraham, Hannah, Chloe, Elisha, Lydia, and Sarah.

North American Family Histories, 1500-2000 “Genealogical History of John and Mary Andrews, who settled in Farmington, Connecticut…Pg 71” lists the parents of Elisha Warren as Abraham Warren and Experience Stevens and confirms his spouse as Rhoda
Andrews, so I know this is the correct Capt Elisha Warren. I found Abraham Warren (born 1681 in Hartford, Connecticut) and Experience and their ten children listed in the “Families of Ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut” where the family eventually
moved thus validating Elisha Warren’s parentage, but this is where I hit the brick wall.

Some genealogists, including some Warren relatives have insisted Abraham Warren is a descendant of Richard Warren of the Mayflower, but I have not been able to find any documents that would substantiate this assertion. Others have indicated he was a
descendant of John Warren of Poynton, but again, there is no documentation to indicate this is true. To date, I have not been able to find a will or other probate or church record for this Abraham.

Have any of you discovered links to this Abraham Warren’s ancestry that I may have missed? Thank you.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 7:34:32 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

North American Family Histories, 1500-2000 “Genealogical History of John and Mary Andrews,
who settled in Farmington, Connecticut…Pg 71” lists the parents of Elisha Warren as Abraham
Warren and Experience Stevens and confirms his spouse as Rhoda Andrews, so I know this is
the correct Capt Elisha Warren. I found Abraham Warren (born 1681 in Hartford, Connecticut)
and Experience and their ten children listed in the “Families of Ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut”
where the family eventually moved thus validating Elisha Warren’s parentage, but this is where I
hit the brick wall.

Not only you, apparently.

Some genealogists, including some Warren relatives have insisted Abraham Warren is a
descendant of Richard Warren of the Mayflower, but I have not been able to find any documents
that would substantiate this assertion.

As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had
daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .

Others have indicated he was a descendant of John Warren of Poynton, but again, there is no
documentation to indicate this is true.

Same phenomenon at work - they have to descend from Warren of Poynton because that is the well-known line through which they can claim a royal descent, almost never from Warren of Ightfield, who may have spewed any number of junior lines during the two
centuries their pedigree is only reconstructed through family heads and we have no clue about junior branches until you get to the last generation.

To date, I have not been able to find a will or other probate or church record for this Abraham.

Doesn't look like one survivied.

Have any of you discovered links to this Abraham Warren’s ancestry that I may have missed? Thank you.

I see a Google Books snippet from the queries section of the Connecticut Nutmegger, 1993, that asks about Abraham, identifying him as "poss s William of Hartford CT", for whatever that's worth.

taf

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A terça-feira, 7 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:20:49 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 7:34:32 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

North American Family Histories, 1500-2000 “Genealogical History of John and Mary Andrews,
who settled in Farmington, Connecticut…Pg 71” lists the parents of Elisha Warren as Abraham
Warren and Experience Stevens and confirms his spouse as Rhoda Andrews, so I know this is
the correct Capt Elisha Warren. I found Abraham Warren (born 1681 in Hartford, Connecticut)
and Experience and their ten children listed in the “Families of Ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut”
where the family eventually moved thus validating Elisha Warren’s parentage, but this is where I
hit the brick wall.

Not only you, apparently.

Some genealogists, including some Warren relatives have insisted Abraham Warren is a
descendant of Richard Warren of the Mayflower, but I have not been able to find any documents
that would substantiate this assertion.

As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had

daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .

Others have indicated he was a descendant of John Warren of Poynton, but again, there is no
documentation to indicate this is true.

Same phenomenon at work - they have to descend from Warren of Poynton because that is the well-known line through which they can claim a royal descent, almost never from Warren of Ightfield, who may have spewed any number of junior lines during the two

centuries their pedigree is only reconstructed through family heads and we have no clue about junior branches until you get to the last generation.

To date, I have not been able to find a will or other probate or church record for this Abraham.

Doesn't look like one survivied.

Have any of you discovered links to this Abraham Warren’s ancestry that I may have missed? Thank you.

I see a Google Books snippet from the queries section of the Connecticut Nutmegger, 1993, that asks about Abraham, identifying him as "poss s William of Hartford CT", for whatever that's worth.

taf

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Warren-8642 has Abraham as son of a William Warren while https://www.geni.com/people/Abraham-Warren/6000000007150589554 has him as a son of John or John William Warren. We should note second names were very rare at the time.
Both have him as son of Elizabeth Crow, though her Geni profile, despite including the surname and a parentage, says she was proven to be Elizabeth Branson instead. This is a mess.

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On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Warren-8642 has Abraham as son of a William Warren
while https://www.geni.com/people/Abraham-Warren/6000000007150589554 has him as a son of John or John William Warren. We should note second names were very rare
at the time. Both have him as son of Elizabeth Crow, though her Geni profile, despite
including the surname and a parentage, says she was proven to be Elizabeth Branson
instead. This is a mess.

As you say, double names were extremely rare for this time and place. If an online pedigree gives two names, it almost always means that someone found different fathers (or mothers) named in different sources and entered them as if they were both names
for the same man (or woman). It is an absurd way of dealing with conflicting information, but is nonetheless quite common.

taf

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A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Warren-8642 has Abraham as son of a William Warren
while https://www.geni.com/people/Abraham-Warren/6000000007150589554 has him
as a son of John or John William Warren. We should note second names were very rare
at the time. Both have him as son of Elizabeth Crow, though her Geni profile, despite
including the surname and a parentage, says she was proven to be Elizabeth Branson
instead. This is a mess.

As you say, double names were extremely rare for this time and place. If an online pedigree gives two names, it almost always means that someone found different fathers (or mothers) named in different sources and entered them as if they were both names

for the same man (or woman). It is an absurd way of dealing with conflicting information, but is nonetheless quite common.

taf

What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?

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On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?

There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done with
their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had

daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .

I agree and that is what's making this so very frustrating.

Same phenomenon at work - they have to descend from Warren of Poynton because that is the well-known line through which they can claim a royal descent, almost never from Warren of Ightfield, who may have spewed any number of junior lines during the two

centuries their pedigree is only reconstructed through family heads and we have no clue about junior branches until you get to the last generation.

Do the Warrens of Ightfield have any known colonial immigrants that you know of? I ask this because while this line of colonial Warrens were not particularly well off, primarily earning their living as farmers and tradesmen, they did seem to marry well.
Associated marriage lines include the families of Whipple, Angell, Rich, Jerome, and Windsor. Additionally, the Rich family descends from yet another Abraham Warren originally from Heston, St Leonard, Middlesex, England who immigrated to Salem,
Massachusetts in 1637. While his ancestry also remains unknown, I have a sneaking suspicion he may be a cousin of Abraham Warren, son of Capt Elisha.

I see a Google Books snippet from the queries section of the Connecticut Nutmegger, 1993, that asks about Abraham, identifying him as "poss s William of Hartford CT", for whatever that's worth.

I saw something that stated the same, but could not find anything on a William of Hartford that would have fit the timeline. But thanks for the thoughts.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

I see a Google Books snippet from the queries section of the Connecticut Nutmegger, 1993, that asks about Abraham, identifying him as "poss s William of Hartford CT", for whatever that's worth.

Oh, crap. This is a possible good lead. Ignore my last comment about William. I've not had enough caffeine this morning..

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On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:59:37 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?

There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done with

their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.

That's better than I thought you would find.

taf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:49:28 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

Do the Warrens of Ightfield have any known colonial immigrants that you know of?

The Warrens of Ightfield (originally Warenne, later Wareyn, never actually Warren that I have seen except in late pedigrees) arose from the Warenne's of Whitchurch in the late 12th century, and ended in the male line in the 15th, but in between is a
bogus visitation pedigree with all invented wives and a reconstructed heir-to-heir line of succession, with almost no known younger sons. The sole exception is a line claimed to descended from a younger brother of John Wareyn (1383,-1413), traced in a
Warren family genealogy that has both some valuable material and some dubious stuff, making it hard to evaluate information uniquely found there. The account gives seven generations of a single male line, so about 2 centuries, ending with a complete
family of three sons and three daughters, probably the living generation at the time the pedigree was recorded. Those are the only descendants of the family that I know of during the Great Migration period, and even then I am not comfortable that it is
reliable.

It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the above John), via
Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.

taf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:26:20 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:49:28 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

Do the Warrens of Ightfield have any known colonial immigrants that you know of?

The Warrens of Ightfield (originally Warenne, later Wareyn, never actually Warren that I have seen except in late pedigrees) arose from the Warenne's of Whitchurch in the late 12th century, and ended in the male line in the 15th, but in between is a

bogus visitation pedigree with all invented wives and a reconstructed heir-to-heir line of succession, with almost no known younger sons. The sole exception is a line claimed to descended from a younger brother of John Wareyn (1383,-1413), traced in a
Warren family genealogy that has both some valuable material and some dubious stuff, making it hard to evaluate information uniquely found there. The account gives seven generations of a single male line, so about 2 centuries, ending with a complete
family of three sons and three daughters, probably the living generation at the time the pedigree was recorded. Those are the only descendants of the family that I know of during the Great Migration period, and even then I am not comfortable that it is
reliable.

It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the above John), via

Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.

taf

Rev. Peter Bulkeley and his niece Olive (Welby) Farwell come to mind for me.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:20:49 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:

As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had

daughters)

Quick correction, just for the archive - his only _surviving_ children were daughters. His estate was eventually divided among two daughters by his first wife and one by the second, but 14 years earlier the widow reported needing expense money to care
for her two children by him, so there must have been another child, sex unknown, who died childless. The takehome is the same: any claim that a New England Brown descends in the male line from Mayflower Peter is demonstrably false.

taf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:26:20 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:49:28 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

Do the Warrens of Ightfield have any known colonial immigrants that you know of?

The Warrens of Ightfield (originally Warenne, later Wareyn, never actually Warren that I have seen except in late pedigrees) arose from the Warenne's of Whitchurch in the late 12th century, and ended in the male line in the 15th, but in between is a

bogus visitation pedigree with all invented wives and a reconstructed heir-to-heir line of succession, with almost no known younger sons. The sole exception is a line claimed to descended from a younger brother of John Wareyn (1383,-1413), traced in a
Warren family genealogy that has both some valuable material and some dubious stuff, making it hard to evaluate information uniquely found there. The account gives seven generations of a single male line, so about 2 centuries, ending with a complete
family of three sons and three daughters, probably the living generation at the time the pedigree was recorded. Those are the only descendants of the family that I know of during the Great Migration period, and even then I am not comfortable that it is
reliable.

It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the above John), via

Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.

taf

The male line should be sufficient. If they were never Warrens and the line daughtered out in the 15th century, this cannot be associated with these Abraham Warrens of Connecticut of the 18th century. Thank you so much for the synopsis of the family
line.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:49:55 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

The male line should be sufficient. If they were never Warrens and the line daughtered
out in the 15th century, this cannot be associated with these Abraham Warrens of
Connecticut of the 18th century. Thank you so much for the synopsis of the family line.

Just to be sure this is clear, as I left out a qualifier when I originally stated it, it was the senior male line ended in the 15th century. That is the only line that is well documented, but may not be the only line, and as I said there is a pedigree
tracing a supposed junior line to the colonial era, plus there may well have been other junior lines that have escaped notice.

As I reconstruct the line, it runs as follows:

1. William de Warenne alias de Blancminster alias de Whitchurch alias de Albo Monasterio, d. 1236
2a. William de Warenne of Whitchurch, d. 1260 d.s.p.m.
2b. Griffin de Warenne alias Fitz William alias de Blancminster alias de Albo Monasterio alias de Ightfield, app. d. bef. 1280
3. Griffin de Warenne, d. 1283|4 m. Isabel de Pulford
4. John de Warenne, b. 1274|1282, d. aft 1348
5. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1299
6. John de Warenne, b. say 1319, d. prob. bef. 1356
7. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1339, d. aft. 1389
8. Griffin de Warenne alias Wareyn, b. say 1359, d. aft. 1405
9a. John Wareyn, b. in or about 1383, d. 1413, m. Margaret Cheney
10a. Griffin Wareyn, b. about 1399/1400, d. 1415, s.p.
10b. Margery/Margaret Wareyn, b. 1401, m. 1) John Egerton (div), m. 2) Hugh Cholmondesley, m. 3) William Mainwaring

(the following line as given by A History and Genealogy of the Warren Family . . . . without source or dates, but based on the number of generations it must have stretched to the colonial era - cuisine best served with many grains of salt)

9b. Griffin Warren, younger son of 8. Griffin, m. Isabel Warmincham
10. John Warren, m. _____ Malbon
11. John Warren, m. Isabel Warren (dau John, son Laurence Warren of Poynton) 12. Richard Warren, m. Hawise Greg
13. Roger Warren m. Alice dau Robert ap Thomas
14a. Charles Warren m. Margaret Wibanbury
15a. Richard, m. Rose Allen, with issue
14b. John Warren, m. Margery, daughter Humphrey Mainwaring
14c. Ralph Warren
14d. Alice Warren, m. John Brooke
14e. Margaret Warren, m. ____ of Gloucestershire
14f. Helen Warren, m. John Bostock

Note that for both lines, it is highly unlikely that there wasn't some additional younger sons among all those straight-line descents.
taf

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 12:59:37 UTC, sar...@yahoo.com escreveu:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?

There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done with

their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.
https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Warren/6000000001589670176 says
"The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 7:34:32 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

North American Family Histories, 1500-2000 “Genealogical History of John and Mary Andrews,
who settled in Farmington, Connecticut…Pg 71” lists the parents of Elisha Warren as Abraham
Warren and Experience Stevens and confirms his spouse as Rhoda Andrews, so I know this is
the correct Capt Elisha Warren. I found Abraham Warren (born 1681 in Hartford, Connecticut)
and Experience and their ten children listed in the “Families of Ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut”
where the family eventually moved thus validating Elisha Warren’s parentage, but this is where I
hit the brick wall.

Not only you, apparently.

Some genealogists, including some Warren relatives have insisted Abraham Warren is a
descendant of Richard Warren of the Mayflower, but I have not been able to find any documents
that would substantiate this assertion.

As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had

daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .

taf

That is DEFINITELY not true... the number of Jabez Warren (Gray) of Brimfield, CT/Lebanon, CT descendants is a very large group and we have a distinct DNA record which identifies us as a part of the Gray family of Plymouth. Our group includes Gideon
Warren, a prominent Patriot officer, Jabez Warren III, founder of Aurora, New York, and the Wilson brothers and Mike Love of The Beach Boys/

We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren in the Mayflower Society, but thankfully DNA evidence put that to rest. This does not, however, rule out his mother being a Warren. The fact that the mother named him "Jabez" could be a clue but I
don't think we will ever know, because an unmarried woman or a woman having a child by another man while married would have been a terrible scandal at that time. The fact that no mother claimed him in any records and the fact that one of the Gray sons
would have been the father points to avoiding said terrible scandal.

D. E. Larocque

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:13:37 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 12:59:37 UTC, sar...@yahoo.com escreveu:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?

There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done

with their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.

https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Warren/6000000001589670176 says
"The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."

Thanks for pointing this out. I recently discovered this woman to be an ancestress of Anna Faris. As a descendant of Elizabeth's formerly alleged father John Crow, it's a little disappointing to hear of the lack of connection, but more important to
improve the accuracy of my research.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:13:37 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

"The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."

Thank you for that information. I will have to see if that issue is still available.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:14:51 PM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:

That is DEFINITELY not true... the number of Jabez Warren (Gray) of Brimfield, CT/Lebanon, CT descendants is a very large group and we have a distinct DNA record which identifies us as a part of the Gray family of Plymouth. Our group includes Gideon

Warren, a prominent Patriot officer, Jabez Warren III, founder of Aurora, New York, and the Wilson brothers and Mike Love of The Beach Boys/

We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren in the Mayflower Society, but thankfully DNA evidence put that to rest. This does not, however, rule out his mother being a Warren. The fact that the mother named him "Jabez" could be a clue but

I don't think we will ever know, because an unmarried woman or a woman having a child by another man while married would have been a terrible scandal at that time. The fact that no mother claimed him in any records and the fact that one of the Gray sons
would have been the father points to avoiding said terrible scandal.

D. E. Larocque

I just noticed a post about Jabez Warren I that was made to genealogy.com back in 2007 that connects this individual with the Bissell family of Windsor. I am also descended from this line (Capt John Bissell), but it is not through any of my known Warrens.


So, are all of these Warrens in CT somehow related to each other and not specifically to Richard of the Mayflower?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:39:41 AM UTC-5, taf wrote:

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:49:55 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

The male line should be sufficient. If they were never Warrens and the line daughtered
out in the 15th century, this cannot be associated with these Abraham Warrens of
Connecticut of the 18th century. Thank you so much for the synopsis of the family line.

Just to be sure this is clear, as I left out a qualifier when I originally stated it, it was the senior male line ended in the 15th century. That is the only line that is well documented, but may not be the only line, and as I said there is a pedigree

tracing a supposed junior line to the colonial era, plus there may well have been other junior lines that have escaped notice.

As I reconstruct the line, it runs as follows:

1. William de Warenne alias de Blancminster alias de Whitchurch alias de Albo Monasterio, d. 1236
2a. William de Warenne of Whitchurch, d. 1260 d.s.p.m.
2b. Griffin de Warenne alias Fitz William alias de Blancminster alias de Albo Monasterio alias de Ightfield, app. d. bef. 1280
3. Griffin de Warenne, d. 1283|4 m. Isabel de Pulford
4. John de Warenne, b. 1274|1282, d. aft 1348
5. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1299
6. John de Warenne, b. say 1319, d. prob. bef. 1356
7. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1339, d. aft. 1389
8. Griffin de Warenne alias Wareyn, b. say 1359, d. aft. 1405
9a. John Wareyn, b. in or about 1383, d. 1413, m. Margaret Cheney
10a. Griffin Wareyn, b. about 1399/1400, d. 1415, s.p.
10b. Margery/Margaret Wareyn, b. 1401, m. 1) John Egerton (div), m. 2) Hugh Cholmondesley, m. 3) William Mainwaring

(the following line as given by A History and Genealogy of the Warren Family . . . . without source or dates, but based on the number of generations it must have stretched to the colonial era - cuisine best served with many grains of salt)

9b. Griffin Warren, younger son of 8. Griffin, m. Isabel Warmincham
10. John Warren, m. _____ Malbon
11. John Warren, m. Isabel Warren (dau John, son Laurence Warren of Poynton) 12. Richard Warren, m. Hawise Greg
13. Roger Warren m. Alice dau Robert ap Thomas
14a. Charles Warren m. Margaret Wibanbury
15a. Richard, m. Rose Allen, with issue
14b. John Warren, m. Margery, daughter Humphrey Mainwaring
14c. Ralph Warren
14d. Alice Warren, m. John Brooke
14e. Margaret Warren, m. ____ of Gloucestershire
14f. Helen Warren, m. John Bostock

Note that for both lines, it is highly unlikely that there wasn't some additional younger sons among all those straight-line descents.
taf

I will have to trace some of these down to see if any do end up in Connecticut. Thank you.

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A sábado, 11 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 00:15:45 UTC, sar...@yahoo.com escreveu:

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:13:37 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

"The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."

Thank you for that information. I will have to see if that issue is still available.

Strangely, despite the note, the profile still shows her as a Crow.

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On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:32:26 PM UTC-5, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:14:51 PM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:

That is DEFINITELY not true... the number of Jabez Warren (Gray) of Brimfield, CT/Lebanon, CT descendants is a very large group and we have a distinct DNA record which identifies us as a part of the Gray family of Plymouth. Our group includes Gideon

Warren, a prominent Patriot officer, Jabez Warren III, founder of Aurora, New York, and the Wilson brothers and Mike Love of The Beach Boys/

We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren in the Mayflower Society, but thankfully DNA evidence put that to rest. This does not, however, rule out his mother being a Warren. The fact that the mother named him "Jabez" could be a clue

but I don't think we will ever know, because an unmarried woman or a woman having a child by another man while married would have been a terrible scandal at that time. The fact that no mother claimed him in any records and the fact that one of the Gray
sons would have been the father points to avoiding said terrible scandal.

D. E. Larocque

I just noticed a post about Jabez Warren I that was made to genealogy.com back in 2007 that connects this individual with the Bissell family of Windsor. I am also descended from this line (Capt John Bissell), but it is not through any of my known

Warrens.

So, are all of these Warrens in CT somehow related to each other and not specifically to Richard of the Mayflower?

The connection to Bissell is only a theory, as the marriage record for Jabez Warren I and Mary is torn, leaving her name as "Mary Bi----". Gideon Warren married a Bishop, but the research of Kathleen Fenton below establishes a plausible theory that she
was a Bissell:

"As his son Gideon named a son David Bishop, it has been speculated that his mother’s maiden name was Bishop; however, no Mary of an appropriate age can be found in the Bishop family, and Bishop is now thought to be the maiden name of Gideon’s first
wife, Ann.There was a Mary BISSELL, youngest daughter of Nathaniel Bissell of Windsor, CT and his second wife, Dorothy Fitch (Charles Manwaring, Early Connecticut Probates, 1710-1715); named last in his 1713 will as one of his three youngest daughters,
she was probably born in 1690-91 (probably just before her mother died 28 June 1691).As his will was written in September 1713 and Nathaniel Bissell died in March 1713/14, before Jabez and Mary married, this only proves that Nathaniel had a young,
presumably still-unmarried (as no husband or married name is mentioned in the will) daughter Mary.(A more thorough search of probate records might turn up some sort of distribution/settlement papers - if they survived so long - but we found none.)We can
speculate that Jabez Warren (married 1716/17) was born about 1690-95, and it’s possible (though unproven)that this Mary Bissell was his wife.The baptisms of two children of Jabez and Mary - a daughter in 1724 and a son in 1721 - are recorded at Lebanon
where they married, though their births are also recorded at Brimfield, Hampden county, MA, where apparently the family had moved by the early 1720s.This suggests that probably either Mary or Jabez had some family connection with Lebanon that encouraged
them to bring their children to Lebanon for baptism."

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/warren/11287/

Darrell

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On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 4:14:51 PM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had

daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .

That is DEFINITELY not true...

We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren

Doesn't really contradict what I said.

taf

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On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 9:24:55 AM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:

"anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren"
"is automatically claimed" infers the present tense which is what I was talking about. In the past, there were so many wild speculations that it is a valid statement but not now... DNA has radically changed the game and has made us Gray descendants

vice Warren.

Note that I never specified _by whom_ these rash claims are reached. Yes, in the present tense, in spite of DNA, there still exist a certain type of genealogist who when finding someone with the same surname as a desirable potential ancestor does indeed
automatically adopt the connection. Of course, not everyone is this shallow, but it is absurd to claim that with the application of DNA to genealogy, all sloppy genealogy has just evaporated. Indeed, with Ancestry recommending pedigree connections, the
less sophisticated DNA customers who don't realize Ancestry is just telling them what someone else has in their pedigree rather than a conclusion drawn fromt he DNA, it is actually helping to propagate bogus genealogy rather than myraculously resolving
it all. DNA is a valuable tool in the hands of someone who knows what it means, but is far from the radical game-changing panacea the abolishes the type of genealogy I was talking about to the dustbin of history among the entire genealogical community.

taf

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On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 9:14:30 AM UTC-5, taf wrote:

On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 4:14:51 PM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only

had daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .

That is DEFINITELY not true...
We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren

Doesn't really contradict what I said.

taf

"anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren"

"is automatically claimed" infers the present tense which is what I was talking about. In the past, there were so many wild speculations that it is a valid statement but not now... DNA has radically changed the game and has made us Gray descendants vice
Warren.

Darrell

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On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 2:28:02 PM UTC-8, Elizabeth A wrote:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:26:20 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the
above John), via Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.

Rev. Peter Bulkeley and his niece Olive (Welby) Farwell come to mind for me.

On this Bulkeley descent, I am unfamiliar with its historiography, but I have to say what I have found on a quick tool through the usual suspects leaves me a little ambivalent. Maybe there is more recent work on the connection than I have found.

Visitation of Shropshire, pedigree 1 (p 101):
1. Thomas Charleton . . .
2. Rob'tus Charleton de Apeley ob. 10 E 4 = Maria filia Rob'ti Corbet de Morton Ar.
3. Richard Charleton de Apeley ob. 13 H 8 = Anna filia Will'i Manwaring in co. Salop
4. William Charleton . . .

Visitation of Shropshire, pedigree 2 (p 108-9)
1. Thomas Knightley als. Charleton . . .
2. Robert Charleton of Apley = Anne da to Wm Manwaringe of Ightfeeld
3. Rich. Charleton of Apley = Alice da to Robt Corbett of Morton Esq
. . .
4. William Charleton

Jacobus recognized the conflict, and selected the first as the more reliable, but the only rationale given related to where the two pedigrees linked to the Lords Charleton, not on this part of the pedigree. Alice Maude Peel in an article in Trans
Shropshire Arch Hist Soc gave the following:

1. Thomas Charlton . . .
2. Robert Charlton =1 Alice Brown =2 Elizabeth Mainwaring dau WIlliam Mainwaring of Ightfield in 1476
3a. Richard Charlton d.s.p.
3b. William Charlton

Richardson follows Jacobus for the pedigree itself but appears to draw the name Elizabeth for the Mainwaring daughter from the conflicting pedigree of Peel without any explanation for this mix and match approach. (He does cite a TAG article I don't have
access to for the Robert = Mary Corbet match.)

Basically, this is a mess. with the only primary sources being late-date pedigrees that conflict (unles there is something in that TAG article). Is anyone aware of further primary sources being brought to bear on this question?

(Perhaps relevant, but not very informative - TNA C 241/268/24 has Richard Corbet and Richard Charleton as two of the debtors, 1495.)

taf

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On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 1:17:56 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 2:28:02 PM UTC-8, Elizabeth A wrote:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:26:20 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of
the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from
the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the
above John), via Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring
of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.

Rev. Peter Bulkeley and his niece Olive (Welby) Farwell come to mind for me.

On this Bulkeley descent, I am unfamiliar with its historiography, but I have to say what I have found on a quick tool through the usual suspects leaves me a little ambivalent. Maybe there is more recent work on the connection than I have found.

Visitation of Shropshire, pedigree 1 (p 101):
1. Thomas Charleton . . .
2. Rob'tus Charleton de Apeley ob. 10 E 4 = Maria filia Rob'ti Corbet de Morton Ar.
3. Richard Charleton de Apeley ob. 13 H 8 = Anna filia Will'i Manwaring in co. Salop
4. William Charleton . . .

Visitation of Shropshire, pedigree 2 (p 108-9)
1. Thomas Knightley als. Charleton . . .
2. Robert Charleton of Apley = Anne da to Wm Manwaringe of Ightfeeld
3. Rich. Charleton of Apley = Alice da to Robt Corbett of Morton Esq
. . .
4. William Charleton

Jacobus recognized the conflict, and selected the first as the more reliable, but the only rationale given related to where the two pedigrees linked to the Lords Charleton, not on this part of the pedigree. Alice Maude Peel in an article in Trans

Shropshire Arch Hist Soc gave the following:

1. Thomas Charlton . . .
2. Robert Charlton =1 Alice Brown =2 Elizabeth Mainwaring dau WIlliam Mainwaring of Ightfield in 1476
3a. Richard Charlton d.s.p.
3b. William Charlton

Richardson follows Jacobus for the pedigree itself but appears to draw the name Elizabeth for the Mainwaring daughter from the conflicting pedigree of Peel without any explanation for this mix and match approach. (He does cite a TAG article I don't

have access to for the Robert = Mary Corbet match.)

Basically, this is a mess. with the only primary sources being late-date pedigrees that conflict (unles there is something in that TAG article). Is anyone aware of further primary sources being brought to bear on this question?

(Perhaps relevant, but not very informative - TNA C 241/268/24 has Richard Corbet and Richard Charleton as two of the debtors, 1495.)

taf

Unfortunately, it's been some time since I've done Shropshire research, and that wasn't on the Charlton or Mainwaring families, so I'm not in a position to readily, nor will I have the time to look into it for a little while. I do know that George Morris'
MS contains many references to many primary sources, including in obscure sources like private collections. The information in Morris' pedigrees can be found, sometimes with references to primary sources Morris cited, in the database "Wales. Welsh
Medieval Database Primarily Nobility and Gentry lines. Date range: 100s-1900s" on familysearch.org, if you go to search->genealogies->Community Trees. Unfortunately, Morris' manuscript appears to be on microfilm reels not digitized yet by FamilySearch (
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/215993?availability=Family%20History%20Library)

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On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 10:17:56 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:

Basically, this is a mess. with the only primary sources being late-date pedigrees
that conflict (unles there is something in that TAG article). Is anyone aware of
further primary sources being brought to bear on this question?

Following up on this , a participant sent me the TAG article off-list, and it has nothing relevant to the Corbet/Mainwaring marriages. A second article he also supplied gives the line as per Jacobus, citing the visitation, which adds nothing of value.

The marriage of Mary Corbet to Robert Charlton also appears in the pedigree or Corbet in the Shropshire visitation. If this is independent (i.e. not just added to one of the manuscript copies because the marriage is found in the Charlton pedigree) this
would further support the Charlton pedigree showing the marriage.

Some chronology:
Both Thomas Knightley alias Charleton and his wife Elizabeth were born in or about 1394. They were already married by 1417 (and easily could have been married a half-decade earlier). That gives us a ballpark for the birthdate for heir Robert. (I have
seen it reported that he was 30 in 1460, which is apparently one of those '30 and more' ages from his father's ipm, which can't be taken as accurate but simply used to represent middle age.)

Richard Charleton was apparently acting as an adult in 1472. He had arranged a marriage for a daughter in 1500 and for a son in 1507.

Margaret/Margery Wareyn's prior husband died 1430, and she presumably married William Mainwaring of Ightfield within a few years. Margaret was born in 1401, so that puts the birth of any daughter most likely in the 1433/1445 range. Online pedigrees make
Elizabeth/Ann Mainwaring b. 1460, which is not possible for a daughter of a woman born 1401.

taf

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On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:13:37 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 12:59:37 UTC, sar...@yahoo.com escreveu:

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?

There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done

with their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.

https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Warren/6000000001589670176 says
"The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."

I know this is a REALLY late entry, but I was just able to obtain a copy of this TAG article. It is discussing a totally different John Warren and wife Elizabeth. The Article lists John Warren as an early resident of Exeter, New Hampshire who removed to
Boston in 1668 where he died in 1677.

The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623 and moved to Farmington, Hartford, Connecticut by 1656 where he died in Nov 1689. This John William
Warren was married twice; first to an unknown woman with whom he had three children: Thomas, William and John and secondly to Elizabeth Crow (daughter of John Crow and Elizabeth Goodwin) with whom he had an additional four children: Abraham, Mary,
Elizabeth, and Mehitable. Children from both marriages were included in his will with the youngest not being named except for Abraham who was to be bound out until the age of 21.

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On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:59:56 AM UTC-7, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623

Just as an aside, Boston didn't even exist in 1623. If this really is when he was born, it was either in Plymouth Colony (less likely) or in England before his parents' emigration (more likely).

taf

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On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:45:57 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:59:56 AM UTC-7, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who
I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623

Just as an aside, Boston didn't even exist in 1623. If this really is when he was born, it was either in Plymouth Colony (less likely) or in England before his parents' emigration (more likely).

taf

You're absolutely right; Boston became Boston in 1630...While I have several secondary sources listing his year of birth as 1623, I have only one, the U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900, that lists his place of birth as Massachusetts, USA.
I really have nothing outlining his childhood years, so he very well could have been born in England (even though I have not been able to locate an immigration record for him). This really throws a wrench into the works as he again joins the multitude
of English Warren immigrants who defy research...

~Gail

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On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 06:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Gail Peterson
<saru308@yahoo.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:45:57 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:59:56 AM UTC-7, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who
I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623 >> Just as an aside, Boston didn't even exist in 1623. If this really is when he was born, it was either in Plymouth Colony (less likely) or in England before his parents' emigration (more likely).

taf

You're absolutely right; Boston became Boston in 1630...While I have several secondary sources listing his year of birth as 1623, I have only one, the U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900, that lists his place of birth as Massachusetts,

USA. I really have nothing outlining his childhood years, so he very well could have been born in England (even though I have not been able to locate an immigration record for him). This really throws a wrench into the works as he again joins the multitude of English Warren immigrants who defy research...

I don't know about the exact meaning of "warren", but there is often
some parallel history between French and Englaish with the pair
G and W. So we have:

guerre/war
quand/when
quoi/what
garant/warrant (but garantie/guarantee)
Gauthier/Walter
Guillaume/William

So Warren would be paired to Guérin, and there are many unrelated
families of that name in New France. I would suspect the origin is
some given name so many unrelated Warren too (while I don't know
any occurence of Guérin as given name nor what the name could mean).


Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/ Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

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On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 7:57:09 AM UTC-7, Denis Beauregard wrote:

So Warren would be paired to Guérin, and there are many unrelated
families of that name in New France. I would suspect the origin is
some given name so many unrelated Warren too (while I don't know
any occurence of Guérin as given name nor what the name could mean).

I think the Anglo-Norman cognate of this French name was Warin, as seen in the patronymic Fitz Warin. This could be the source of some Warrens, but some do appear to be derivative of the toponymic de Warenne, from Varenne in Normandy.

taf

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the w0rd
Warden
shuld be a backgrund f sme f these Warren cases.


--------------------------------
Denis Beauregard:

On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 06:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Gail Peterson
<sar...@yahoo.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:45:57 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:59:56 AM UTC-7, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

The John William Warren (in his will he writes his name J William Warren) who
I have as being the spouse of Elizabeth Crow was born in Boston abt 1623

Just as an aside, Boston didn't even exist in 1623. If this really is when he was born, it was either in Plymouth Colony (less likely) or in England before his parents' emigration (more likely).

taf

You're absolutely right; Boston became Boston in 1630...While I have several secondary sources listing his year of birth as 1623, I have only one, the U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900, that lists his place of birth as Massachusetts,

USA. I really have nothing outlining his childhood years, so he very well could

have been born in England (even though I have not been able to locate an immigration record for him). This really throws a wrench into the works as he again joins the multitude of English Warren immigrants who defy research...
I don't know about the exact meaning of "warren", but there is often
some parallel history between French and Englaish with the pair
G and W. So we have:

guerre/war
quand/when
quoi/what
garant/warrant (but garantie/guarantee)
Gauthier/Walter
Guillaume/William

So Warren would be paired to Guérin, and there are many unrelated
families of that name in New France. I would suspect the origin is
some given name so many unrelated Warren too (while I don't know
any occurence of Guérin as given name nor what the name could mean).

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

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