On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions with regard
to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.

https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn

With regards,
Hans Vogels

Op dinsdag 24 november 2020 om 06:11:17 UTC+1 schreef jhigg...@yahoo.com:

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 8:13:00 PM UTC-8, Stewart Baldwin wrote:

A recent purchase which arrived in my mailbox today:

Ben Guy, Medieval Welsh Genealogy. An Introduction and Textual Study (Studies in Celtic History XLII, Boydell Press, 2020).

This is a very detailed study of the early Welsh genealogical manuscripts, recommended for those interested in the serious study of early Welsh genealogy who happen to have some extra money gathering dust. However, the material may be too difficult

for those who just prefer to copy genealogies.

Stewart Baldwin

The book is available at quite a number of US libraries - if and when libraries begin offering ILL services again. Here is a list of its contents (from Worldcat):

Intro -- Frontcover -- Contents -- List of Illustrations -- Acknowledgements -- List of Abbreviations -- A Note on Orthography, Manuscripts, Tables and Translations -- 1. Medieval Welsh Genealogy and its Contexts -- Kinship and Society in Medieval

Wales -- Literary Genealogy in the Insular World -- Formal and Structural Conventions of Insular Literary Genealogy -- Literary Genealogy in Medieval Wales -- Modern Approaches to Medieval Welsh Genealogy -- 2. The Earliest Welsh Genealogical Collections:
The St Davids Recension and the Gwynedd Collection of Genealogies -- The Harleian Genealogies; The St Davids Recension in Llancarfan -- 3. A Southern Genealogical Anthology: The Jesus 20 Genealogies -- The Manuscript -- The Extant Form of the Jesus 20
Genealogies -- The Jesus 20 Genealogies, Source II -- The Jesus 20 Genealogies, Source I -- The Sources of the Morgan ab Owain Genealogies -- 4. Reframing the Welsh Past in Early Thirteenth-Century Gwynedd: The Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies -- Textual
History -- Textual Analysis -- 5. The Pedigrees of the Kings of Gwynedd -- Early Versions Traced through Cunedda Wledig -- The Pedigree from Beli Mawr to Adam; The Pedigree of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd -- The Exeter 3514 Genealogies -- Mortimer Genealogies --
The Fifteenth-Century Extended Galfridian Pedigree -- Coda -- Appendix A: Supporting Material -- A.2.1: Manuscripts of the St Cadog Genealogies -- A.2.2: The St Cadog Genealogies -- A.2.3: Geoffrey of Monmouth's Use of the St Davids Recension -- A.3.1:
The Contents of Jesus 20 -- A.3.2: The Jesus 20 King-list -- A.3.3: Pedigrees from the Pseudo-Rhodri Mawr Recension -- A.3.4: A Welsh Version of the Brychan Narrative: Sarth Marthin gynt, ynawr Brycheiniawc -- A.3.5: Witnesses to the Ceredig Tract; A.3.6:
The Sons of Glywys -- A.4.1: Witnesses to Ieuan Brechfa's Lost Manuscript(s) -- A.4.2: Witnesses to Henry Salesbury's Lost Manuscript -- A.4.3: Bonedd y Llwythau -- A.4.4: Additional Material in Llyma Dalm o Weheliaethau a Llwythau Cymru -- A.4.5: The
Use of De gestis Britonum in the Pedigree of Beli Mawr -- A.4.6: The Use of Historia Gruffud vab Kenan in the Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies -- A.4.7: Pedigrees from the St Davids Recension -- A.5.1: Cyprius quidam filius Ieuan and its Relatives --
Untitled -- Appendix B: Editions -- B.1: The St Davids Recension; B.2: The Jesus 20 Genealogies -- B.3: Gwehelyth Morgannwg -- B.4: The Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies -- B.5: The Gutun Owain Recension of the Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies -- B.6:
Llyma Dalm o Weheliaethau a Llwythau Cymru -- B.7: Llyma Frychan Brycheiniog a'i blant -- B.8: Bonedd Gwyr y Gogledd -- B.9: The Mostyn Genealogies -- B.10: The Cwtta Cyfarwydd Genealogies -- B.11: Brenhinllwyth Morgannwg -- Bibliography -- General Index
-- Index of Genealogies -- Index of Manuscripts

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On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions with regard

to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.

https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn

I found most of this to be unconvincing guesswork.

Stewart Baldwin

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Op zondag 5 december 2021 om 02:28:16 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:

On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions with

regard to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.

https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn

I found most of this to be unconvincing guesswork.

Stewart Baldwin

I agree it is nothing compared to Guy Halsall's, Worlds of Arthur. Facts & Fictions of the Dark Ages (2013), but beside the guesswork it provides a critical view on some previous assumptions and points to some peculiarities. From genealogical viewpoint
it is a critical approach on a popular line of descent.

What did you find unconvincing?

A quick Google check shows that Flint Johnson has written more on that time period.

Dr. Flint Johnson grew up in Hudson, Wisconsin. After graduating from the University of Wisconsin, River Falls, he earned his Ph.D. in Medieval Studies, a multi-disciplinary degree, from the University of Glasgow at the age of 26. His other areas of

interest include Greek and Germanic classic history, feminist studies, and prehistoric civilizations. A highly creative and prolific writer, he has written many books in several of his different areas of study and is in the process of publishing them. He
is currently focusing his work on German history ca. 300 through 550.<<

https://www.amazon.com/Flint-Johnson/e/B001KHFMI2%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Flint-Johnson-2 https://independent.academia.edu/FlintJohnson

In his advise to other researchers I noticed that his knowledge of academic literature is remarkable. It looks to me that dr. Johnson is no amateur whose work can be easily brushed aside with a casual comment.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

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On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 4:54:18 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

Op zondag 5 december 2021 om 02:28:16 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:

On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions with

regard to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.

https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn

I found most of this to be unconvincing guesswork.

What did you find unconvincing?

While credentials like a Master's Degree are not meaningless, the research still has to speak for itself. My original statement was based on the large number of "red flags" I found when resding the paper. For example, discussing the origin of the
dynasty of Gwynedd, in the very first paragraph contains the following sentence:

"The Historia Brittonum states that Padarn Peisrud, translated as Paternus of the Red Cloak, founded the dynasty."

This statement is false. Not only does Historia Brittonum [HB] not make this statement, it does not even mention Padarn Peisrud. If we give the author the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not falsifying his citation, then the most generous
assessment would appear to be that of extreme sloppiness. The edition of HB cited is that of Morris, which also prints the Harleian Genealogies, which do mention Padarn Peisrud in the genealogy of the kings of Gwynedd. However, even the genealogies do
not make the statement that Padarn founded the dynasty. In fact, no known primary source makes that statement, although it has been a matter of speculation in modern scholarship. It would appear that this particular statement by the author was based on
some careless notes which were not checked when the alleged source was cited.

This alone would be enough to cause considerable skepticism, but there are plenty of other problems. The paper shows plenty of "cherry-picking" of data, including from late literary sources (such as the late Welsh tale "Culhwch ac Olwen") treated as if
they were genuine "historical" sources.

Stewart Baldwin

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Op maandag 6 december 2021 om 05:52:37 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:

On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 4:54:18 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

Op zondag 5 december 2021 om 02:28:16 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:

On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions with

regard to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.

https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn

I found most of this to be unconvincing guesswork.

What did you find unconvincing?

While credentials like a Master's Degree are not meaningless, the research still has to speak for itself. My original statement was based on the large number of "red flags" I found when resding the paper. For example, discussing the origin of the

dynasty of Gwynedd, in the very first paragraph contains the following sentence:

"The Historia Brittonum states that Padarn Peisrud, translated as Paternus of the Red Cloak, founded the dynasty."

This statement is false. Not only does Historia Brittonum [HB] not make this statement, it does not even mention Padarn Peisrud. If we give the author the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not falsifying his citation, then the most generous

assessment would appear to be that of extreme sloppiness. The edition of HB cited is that of Morris, which also prints the Harleian Genealogies, which do mention Padarn Peisrud in the genealogy of the kings of Gwynedd. However, even the genealogies do
not make the statement that Padarn founded the dynasty. In fact, no known primary source makes that statement, although it has been a matter of speculation in modern scholarship. It would appear that this particular statement by the author was based on
some careless notes which were not checked when the alleged source was cited.

This alone would be enough to cause considerable skepticism, but there are plenty of other problems. The paper shows plenty of "cherry-picking" of data, including from late literary sources (such as the late Welsh tale "Culhwch ac Olwen") treated as if

they were genuine "historical" sources.

Stewart Baldwin

Indeed, it's in how you treat the details one's craftmanship shows.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

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On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 1:52:05 AM UTC-5, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

Op maandag 6 december 2021 om 05:52:37 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:

On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 4:54:18 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

Op zondag 5 december 2021 om 02:28:16 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:

On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:

On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions

with regard to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.

https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn

I found most of this to be unconvincing guesswork.

What did you find unconvincing?

While credentials like a Master's Degree are not meaningless, the research still has to speak for itself. My original statement was based on the large number of "red flags" I found when resding the paper. For example, discussing the origin of the

dynasty of Gwynedd, in the very first paragraph contains the following sentence:

"The Historia Brittonum states that Padarn Peisrud, translated as Paternus of the Red Cloak, founded the dynasty."

This statement is false. Not only does Historia Brittonum [HB] not make this statement, it does not even mention Padarn Peisrud. If we give the author the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not falsifying his citation, then the most generous

assessment would appear to be that of extreme sloppiness. The edition of HB cited is that of Morris, which also prints the Harleian Genealogies, which do mention Padarn Peisrud in the genealogy of the kings of Gwynedd. However, even the genealogies do
not make the statement that Padarn founded the dynasty. In fact, no known primary source makes that statement, although it has been a matter of speculation in modern scholarship. It would appear that this particular statement by the author was based on
some careless notes which were not checked when the alleged source was cited.

This alone would be enough to cause considerable skepticism, but there are plenty of other problems. The paper shows plenty of "cherry-picking" of data, including from late literary sources (such as the late Welsh tale "Culhwch ac Olwen") treated as

if they were genuine "historical" sources.

Stewart Baldwin

Indeed, it's in how you treat the details one's craftmanship shows.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

Is there any historically accepted line to Cunedda?

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On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 10:15:30 AM UTC-6, Dude wrote:

Is there any historically accepted line to Cunedda?

No. The time of his supposed existence would be a century or so before any contemporary recorded history concerning any of his alleged descendants, and several hundred years before any source mentioning Cunedda himself. While it would be difficult to
demonstrate convincingly that he is completely mythical, there are enough suspicious elements in the story to cast major doubt.

Stewart Baldwin

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