• Petronell Chudleigh, wife of Anthony Pollard

    From John Higgins@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 26 11:34:04 2021
    I have the above couple in my my data, with a note indicating that Petronell's parentage is uncertain. In my data I cite a post by Todd Farmerie of 3 May 2010.
    https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/YhuRQp9oXFg/m/5xrf3gUQgt0J

    This is the body of the post:
    "Another is Margaret Stourton, perhaps mother of Petronell Chudleigh,
    wife of Anthony Pollard and progenitrix of immigrant Oliver Manwaring.
    Vivian's Chudleigh pedigree is severely botched at this point, but he
    shows Petronell as daughter of an earlier James 'grandfather' of
    Margaret's husband. A correlation of chronologies would seem to place
    Petronell as daughter of this younger James rather than the elder, but
    I have found no direct attestation, and Margaret was not his only
    wife.

    Margarett wedded Jamys Chydly;

    James was not actually grandson of the earlier James either. As I
    said, one of Vivian's gems.
    [end quote]

    Is there any change in this? Is Petronell's parentage (paternity and maternity?) still uncertain?

    And if "James was not actually grandson of the earlier James either", what is known about his parentage and ancestry - if anything?

    From a note in RD900 p. 674, the source for this information (which corrects Vivian's edition of the visitation of Devon) is apparently an article in Devon & Cornwall Notea & Queries, vol. 24, 1950-51. I'm trying to get a copy of the article via ILL.

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to jhigg...@yahoo.com on Fri Nov 26 15:02:05 2021
    On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 11:34:06 AM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
    I have the above couple in my my data, with a note indicating that Petronell's parentage is uncertain. In my data I cite a post by Todd Farmerie of 3 May 2010.
    https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/YhuRQp9oXFg/m/5xrf3gUQgt0J

    This is the body of the post:
    "Another is Margaret Stourton, perhaps mother of Petronell Chudleigh,
    wife of Anthony Pollard and progenitrix of immigrant Oliver Manwaring. Vivian's Chudleigh pedigree is severely botched at this point, but he
    shows Petronell as daughter of an earlier James 'grandfather' of
    Margaret's husband. A correlation of chronologies would seem to place Petronell as daughter of this younger James rather than the elder, but
    I have found no direct attestation, and Margaret was not his only
    wife.

    Margarett wedded Jamys Chydly;

    James was not actually grandson of the earlier James either. As I
    said, one of Vivian's gems.
    [end quote]

    Is there any change in this? Is Petronell's parentage (paternity and maternity?) still uncertain?

    Petronell's paternity was never all that uncertain - a visitation Pollard account says Anthony married the daughter of James Ch. Vivian somehow got it in his head to attach her, not to the James who was of the generation before her husband, but instead
    made her that James' aunt, as daughter of an earlier chronologically impossible James. The maternity issue is simply that the actual father married thrice. Chronology favors Margaret as mother, but not definitively so, and that will likely never be '
    proven' beyond the chronological argument since none of the women involved were heiresses.

    And if "James was not actually grandson of the earlier James either", what is known about his parentage and ancestry - if anything?

    Nothing you will find in print. (Yes, I am being intentionally vague here - it is as of yet unpublished work, based on primary documentation. I would be happy to discuss it off-list. Maybe it is about time I get around to publishing the damned thing.)

    From a note in RD900 p. 674, the source for this information (which corrects Vivian's edition of the visitation of Devon) is apparently an article in Devon & Cornwall Notea & Queries, vol. 24, 1950-51. I'm trying to get a copy of the article via ILL.

    Not going to be very helpful - the majority of the work on the family used the Devon visitation pedigree (repeated and 'improved' by Vivian) as the framework for their accounts. The problem is that actual visitation pedigree is fraudulent -
    intentionally falsified by the family to 'promote' themselves to the senior line in order to counter the claims of the (apparently rightful) heirs. They also invented marraiges to match properties they actually acquired by fine, and split one historical
    spouse into the wives of three different generations, apparently out of confusion over vague memories of connections to the families all relating to a single one of their actual wives. Vivian only adds to the confusion, giving the wrong maternal
    parentage to seven successive heads of the family, the wrong father to two, and was completely unaware of the existence of the family head immediately preceding Petronell's father. But who's counting.

    taf

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  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to taf on Fri Nov 26 16:54:17 2021
    On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 3:02:06 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
    On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 11:34:06 AM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
    I have the above couple in my my data, with a note indicating that Petronell's parentage is uncertain. In my data I cite a post by Todd Farmerie of 3 May 2010.
    https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/YhuRQp9oXFg/m/5xrf3gUQgt0J

    This is the body of the post:
    "Another is Margaret Stourton, perhaps mother of Petronell Chudleigh,
    wife of Anthony Pollard and progenitrix of immigrant Oliver Manwaring. Vivian's Chudleigh pedigree is severely botched at this point, but he shows Petronell as daughter of an earlier James 'grandfather' of Margaret's husband. A correlation of chronologies would seem to place Petronell as daughter of this younger James rather than the elder, but
    I have found no direct attestation, and Margaret was not his only
    wife.

    Margarett wedded Jamys Chydly;

    James was not actually grandson of the earlier James either. As I
    said, one of Vivian's gems.
    [end quote]

    Is there any change in this? Is Petronell's parentage (paternity and maternity?) still uncertain?
    Petronell's paternity was never all that uncertain - a visitation Pollard account says Anthony married the daughter of James Ch. Vivian somehow got it in his head to attach her, not to the James who was of the generation before her husband, but instead
    made her that James' aunt, as daughter of an earlier chronologically impossible James. The maternity issue is simply that the actual father married thrice. Chronology favors Margaret as mother, but not definitively so, and that will likely never be '
    proven' beyond the chronological argument since none of the women involved were heiresses.
    And if "James was not actually grandson of the earlier James either", what is known about his parentage and ancestry - if anything?
    Nothing you will find in print. (Yes, I am being intentionally vague here - it is as of yet unpublished work, based on primary documentation. I would be happy to discuss it off-list. Maybe it is about time I get around to publishing the damned thing.)
    From a note in RD900 p. 674, the source for this information (which corrects Vivian's edition of the visitation of Devon) is apparently an article in Devon & Cornwall Notea & Queries, vol. 24, 1950-51. I'm trying to get a copy of the article via ILL.
    Not going to be very helpful - the majority of the work on the family used the Devon visitation pedigree (repeated and 'improved' by Vivian) as the framework for their accounts. The problem is that actual visitation pedigree is fraudulent -
    intentionally falsified by the family to 'promote' themselves to the senior line in order to counter the claims of the (apparently rightful) heirs. They also invented marraiges to match properties they actually acquired by fine, and split one historical
    spouse into the wives of three different generations, apparently out of confusion over vague memories of connections to the families all relating to a single one of their actual wives. Vivian only adds to the confusion, giving the wrong maternal
    parentage to seven successive heads of the family, the wrong father to two, and was completely unaware of the existence of the family head immediately preceding Petronell's father. But who's counting.

    taf
    Thanks for your comments, Todd. i definitely would be interested to hear any further thoughts you may wish to share off-list - with the understanding that anything you choose to share will be confidential until you decide otherwise. I'd be especially
    interested to hear more about the family's machinations, along with Vivian's errors, that you describe in the last paragraph. It sounds like it would be an interesting article - if you decide to write it.

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to jhigg...@yahoo.com on Fri Nov 26 17:40:28 2021
    On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 4:54:19 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

    Thanks for your comments, Todd. i definitely would be interested to hear any further thoughts you may wish to share off-list - with the understanding that anything you choose to share will be confidential until you decide otherwise. I'd be especially
    interested to hear more about the family's machinations, along with Vivian's errors, that you describe in the last paragraph. It sounds like it would be an interesting article - if you decide to write it.

    Google won't show me your entire email for me to contact you. Drop me a line at tafDOTmedievalATgmailDOTcom.

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  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to taf on Fri Nov 26 21:17:53 2021
    On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 5:40:30 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
    On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 4:54:19 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

    Thanks for your comments, Todd. i definitely would be interested to hear any further thoughts you may wish to share off-list - with the understanding that anything you choose to share will be confidential until you decide otherwise. I'd be especially
    interested to hear more about the family's machinations, along with Vivian's errors, that you describe in the last paragraph. It sounds like it would be an interesting article - if you decide to write it.
    Google won't show me your entire email for me to contact you. Drop me a line at tafDOTmedievalATgmailDOTcom.
    My Y*H** name is jhigginsgen.

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