• Living matrilineal descendants of Gerberga Comtesse d'Arles

    From Charlene@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 22 18:45:23 2021
    1 Gerberga Comtesse d'Arles Est 1058 - Abt 1118 https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120775&tree=LEO
    2 Aldonza|Douce|Dulcia de Gevaudan Heiress of Provence Aft 1092 - 1127
    3 Berenguela of Barcelona Abt 1116 - 1149
    4 Constance of Castile Aft 1140 - 1160
    5 Alix de France 1160 - Aft 1218
    6 Marie Comtesse de Ponthieu Abt 1199 - 1250
    7 Jeanne de Dammartin Abt 1220 - 1279
    8 Eleanor of Castile Abt 1241 - 1290
    9 Joan of Acre 1272 - 1307
    10 Margaret de Clare Abt 1294 - 1342
    11 Margaret de Audley Abt 1322 - 1349
    12 Beatrice Stafford Aft 1342 - 1415
    13 Margaret de Ros - Bef 1415
    14 Margaret Grey Abt 1399 - 1426
    15 Margaret Bonville - Abt 1487
    16 Joan Courtenay 1468 -
    17 Cecily Carew 1507 -
    18 Thomasine Kirkham 1532 -
    19 Mary Southcott - Bef 24 Feb 1618
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Southcote-7 https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00473403&tree=LEO
    Leo's database for this line ends here.

    20 Elizabeth Strode Abt. 1580 - Bef 16 May 1628 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Strode-681
    21 Ursula Speccot Bap 1620 - May 1698
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Speccot-4
    22 Mary Walrond Bap 1638 -
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Walrond-198
    23 Ann Verman 1664 -
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Verman-3
    24 Ann Trevanion Bap 1697 - May 1776
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Trevanion-52
    25 Anne Pyle/Pyll Bap 1727 - Feb 1804
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Pyll-6
    26 Jane Greet Bap 1750 - Aft. 1828
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Greet-87
    27 Mary Greet Tiddy Bap 1778 -
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tiddy-68
    28 Mary Burgess Bap 1799 - Feb 1886
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burgess-11664
    29 Selina Ann Cundy Bap 1830 - 1919
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Cundy-753
    30 Mary Jane Greenfield 1857 - 1936 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Greenfield-1807

    31a Mary Sarah Jane Glynn 1879 - 1949
    32a Hilda Gertrude Oates 1906 - 1998
    33a Joan Bourke 1938 - 2014
    34a Living children

    31b Teresa Glynn 1885 - 1965
    32b Lydia Margaret Oates 1926 - 2013
    33b Living children

    31c Sarah Glynn 1895 -
    32c Marie Christina Reid 1931 - 2011
    33c Living children

    31d Matilda Glynn 1897 - 1960
    32d Priscilla Mary Gannon 1923 - 2005
    33d Living children

    I would like to give credit to Elizabeth Viney for generations 22-26.
    I have added documentation on Wikitree and would be grateful if some other SGM members could check this line.
    I'm not sure if the mother of Gerberga is confirmed so I haven't included her here.

    Thanks
    Charlene

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  • From Elizabeth A@21:1/5 to Charlene on Mon Nov 22 19:13:11 2021
    On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 9:45:25 PM UTC-5, Charlene wrote:
    1 Gerberga Comtesse d'Arles Est 1058 - Abt 1118 https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120775&tree=LEO
    2 Aldonza|Douce|Dulcia de Gevaudan Heiress of Provence Aft 1092 - 1127
    3 Berenguela of Barcelona Abt 1116 - 1149
    4 Constance of Castile Aft 1140 - 1160
    5 Alix de France 1160 - Aft 1218
    6 Marie Comtesse de Ponthieu Abt 1199 - 1250
    7 Jeanne de Dammartin Abt 1220 - 1279
    8 Eleanor of Castile Abt 1241 - 1290
    9 Joan of Acre 1272 - 1307
    10 Margaret de Clare Abt 1294 - 1342
    11 Margaret de Audley Abt 1322 - 1349
    12 Beatrice Stafford Aft 1342 - 1415
    13 Margaret de Ros - Bef 1415
    14 Margaret Grey Abt 1399 - 1426
    15 Margaret Bonville - Abt 1487
    16 Joan Courtenay 1468 -
    17 Cecily Carew 1507 -
    18 Thomasine Kirkham 1532 -
    19 Mary Southcott - Bef 24 Feb 1618 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Southcote-7 https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00473403&tree=LEO
    Leo's database for this line ends here.

    20 Elizabeth Strode Abt. 1580 - Bef 16 May 1628 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Strode-681
    21 Ursula Speccot Bap 1620 - May 1698 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Speccot-4
    22 Mary Walrond Bap 1638 -
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Walrond-198
    23 Ann Verman 1664 -
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Verman-3
    24 Ann Trevanion Bap 1697 - May 1776 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Trevanion-52
    25 Anne Pyle/Pyll Bap 1727 - Feb 1804
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Pyll-6
    26 Jane Greet Bap 1750 - Aft. 1828
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Greet-87
    27 Mary Greet Tiddy Bap 1778 -
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tiddy-68
    28 Mary Burgess Bap 1799 - Feb 1886 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burgess-11664
    29 Selina Ann Cundy Bap 1830 - 1919
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Cundy-753
    30 Mary Jane Greenfield 1857 - 1936 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Greenfield-1807

    31a Mary Sarah Jane Glynn 1879 - 1949
    32a Hilda Gertrude Oates 1906 - 1998
    33a Joan Bourke 1938 - 2014
    34a Living children

    31b Teresa Glynn 1885 - 1965
    32b Lydia Margaret Oates 1926 - 2013
    33b Living children

    31c Sarah Glynn 1895 -
    32c Marie Christina Reid 1931 - 2011
    33c Living children

    31d Matilda Glynn 1897 - 1960
    32d Priscilla Mary Gannon 1923 - 2005
    33d Living children

    I would like to give credit to Elizabeth Viney for generations 22-26.
    I have added documentation on Wikitree and would be grateful if some other SGM members could check this line.
    I'm not sure if the mother of Gerberga is confirmed so I haven't included her here.

    Thanks
    Charlene
    As you may or may not be aware, we discussed the topic of long matrilines earlier this year. In the thread, I came up with one 33- and one 34-generation line, neither of which matched the 37-generation line for Virginia Angela Cayzer on Genealogics. In
    terms of documentation, I am instinctively inclined to trust the line through New England more, on account of the high degree of record preservation there and the social prominence of that gateway ancestor, though I admit to being biased as to the
    insufficiency of my knowledge of various other regions. Those societies which took less care in recording the identities and relationships of women may well be the societies in which you might expect women to marry at younger ages, thus producing lines
    of more generations, but less documentation thereof.

    https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/XdHY4_rOL9A/m/b0vWM2teAQAJ

    -Elizabeth A

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  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Charlene on Tue Nov 23 14:45:10 2021
    On 23-Nov-21 1:45 PM, Charlene wrote:
    1 Gerberga Comtesse d'Arles Est 1058 - Abt 1118 https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120775&tree=LEO
    2 Aldonza|Douce|Dulcia de Gevaudan Heiress of Provence Aft 1092 - 1127

    Why not start this matriline with the mother of Gerberga, recorded in Genealogics here https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00164204&tree=LEO as "Stephanie 'Dulcia' de Marseille"?

    I don't recall that the family origin from Marseille is certain, but the
    name of Gerberga's mother is known from a charter dated 11 September
    1096 (Pisan style, = 1095, explitly during Urban II's visit to Tarascon
    in that year), "Stephania, cognomento Dulcis".

    Szabolcs de Vajay speculated about her origin, and implausibly suggested
    that the name Dulce was assumed when she became a veiled widow. However,
    she had called herself 'Dulcis comitissa' with no reference to being
    'Deo sacrata' or 'devota' in July 1094, and obviously still retained her
    given name Stephania in the following year when Dulcis was described as
    her 'cognomen', probably a sobriquet from a personal quality of kindness
    or charm - the bestowing of a name taken in religion on a grandchild (#2
    above) at baptism, as implied by Vajay, would have been highly unusual
    if not unexampled.

    Peter Stewart

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  • From Charlene@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 22 20:10:50 2021
    I wasn't sure if her mother was confirmed or not that's why didn't start with her. On Wikitree her parents have been marked as speculative citing MedLands.
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#_ftnref348

    Thank you for the confirmation.

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  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Charlene on Tue Nov 23 15:38:54 2021
    On 23-Nov-21 3:10 PM, Charlene wrote:
    I wasn't sure if her mother was confirmed or not that's why didn't start with her. On Wikitree her parents have been marked as speculative citing MedLands.
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#_ftnref348

    Thank you for the confirmation.

    The parentage of Gerberge is not directly stated in a contemporary
    source, but there is virtually no room for doubt that she must have been
    the sister (in order to have become the heiress) of Bertran II who died
    in 1090/94. His entire patrimony was given by Gerberge to her daughter
    Dulcia on 1 February 112 and then confirmed to Ramon Berenguer III of
    Barcelona to whom Dulcia was married two days later. Stephania aka
    Dulcia was described as Bertran II's mother in 1095 and she is the only
    known wife of his father Geoffroy I, count of Arles & marquis of
    Provence. Bertran's only child was a daughter Cecilia whose husband (a Trencavel viscount) was not on the spot and evidently not able, or
    considered suitable, to obtain a share of the inheritance.

    This may not seem absolutely water-tight, but it is appreciably more
    solid than the circumstantial evidence we have for many women in their timeframe. I don't think it has been in doubt since Georges de
    Manteyer's /La Provence du premier au douzième siècle/ (1908), and his
    view was accepted without qualification by Jean-Pierre Poly in /La
    Provence et la société féodale (879-1166)/ (1976).

    Peter Stewart

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  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Will Johnson on Tue Nov 23 12:27:35 2021
    On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 12:16:24 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
    So, although Genealogics has this line, it's problematic.

    If you look at the entry for "Cecily Carew" you will see that Leo has cited *no sources*
    That's a red flag. It probably means this is a legendary connection which has no support

    Joan Courtenay married
    William /Carew/ of Mohun's Ottery 1532 , Knt
    heir of his father "aged 30 and more" Jun 1513

    Their heir George /Carew/ , Knt was born Abt 1504 and d.s.p. in the sinking of the Mary Rose, England 20 Jun 1545
    Since his next brother Philip /Carew/ , Knt had already d.s.p.
    the heir male at that point was

    Peter /Carew/ , Knt
    third son; heir "aged 33" of his brother George 1545

    Meanwhile back at the ranch
    Margaret /Bonville/
    was born 1419/1427
    her mother Margaret /Grey/ being dead 1426/1427

    It's problematic for a grandmother to being seeing grandchildren born 90 years after herself

    Therefore Joan is not a daughter of Margaret
    Rather she is a daughter of
    William /Courtenay/ of Powderham d 1512
    by his wife Cicely /Cheney/
    and therefore the full sibling (not aunt) to William /Courtenay/ of Powderham Castle; Knt who d 1535

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  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 23 12:16:22 2021
    So, although Genealogics has this line, it's problematic.

    If you look at the entry for "Cecily Carew" you will see that Leo has cited *no sources*
    That's a red flag. It probably means this is a legendary connection which has no support

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  • From Charlene@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 23 16:12:55 2021
    Thank you. I knew that section of the line would be problematic. I did have doubts.

    William Courtenay d. 1512 and Cicely Cheney are recorded with a daughter Joan in the visitation of Devon in 1564.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c2524477&view=1up&seq=87&skin=2021

    In Vivian's visitations of Devon 1531, 1564, & 1620 with additions, their daughter Joan Courtenay is recorded as the wife of William Beaumont.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213917&view=1up&seq=260&skin=2021

    There is a William Beaumont d. 1454 who married Joan Courtenay.
    See A Treatise on the Law of Adulterine Bastardy https://books.google.com.au/books?id=DkBfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q&f=false She cannot be the same Joan Courtenay who was born in 1468 (if that's her correct birth date). That leaves it open for her being the Joan Courtenay (daughter of William Courtenay of Powderham) who married William Carew as in the Carew pedigree.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c2524477&view=1up&seq=50&skin=2021

    Cicely Cheyne/Cheney's matrilineal line can be traced another 3 generations back.

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  • From Charlene@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 23 17:33:57 2021
    This document from the UK discovery catalogue supports Joan being the daughter of William Courtenay d. 1512 and Cicely Cheney.

    Short title: Gilberd v Courtney.
    Plaintiffs: John Gilberd of Greenway.
    Defendants: Cecille, executrix and late the wife of William Courtney, knight, and William, son and heir of Edmond Carew, knight.
    Subject: Action on a statute staple made by the said Edmund to the said William Courtney to defeat complainant's claim to the manor of Galmpton in Brixham and other lands free of encumbrances.
    Devon.
    7 documents
    Date: 1515-1518
    https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7469957

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to Charlene on Tue Nov 23 18:16:38 2021
    On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:12:57 PM UTC-8, Charlene wrote:

    William Courtenay d. 1512 and Cicely Cheney are recorded with a daughter Joan in the visitation of Devon in 1564.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c2524477&view=1up&seq=87&skin=2021

    In Vivian's visitations of Devon 1531, 1564, & 1620 with additions, their daughter Joan Courtenay is recorded as the wife of William Beaumont.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213917&view=1up&seq=260&skin=2021

    There is a William Beaumont d. 1454 who married Joan Courtenay.

    Vivian may well be confused here. The 1564 visitation of Devon volume includes a Beamont pedigree that shows William Beaumont marrying Joan, eldest daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay. The pedigree in question may not have been in the original version of
    the visitation int he COllege of Arms, as it is taken from a manuscript in the Bodlean, but nonetheless, it looks to me like Vivian's compilation volume has created a chimera of two different Joans.

    taf

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  • From Charlene@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 23 19:43:58 2021
    Thank you Peter for the addtional information on the parentage of Gerberge.

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  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Peter Stewart on Wed Nov 24 14:26:33 2021
    On 23-Nov-21 3:38 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
    On 23-Nov-21 3:10 PM, Charlene wrote:
    I wasn't sure if her mother was confirmed or not that's why didn't
    start with her. On Wikitree her parents have been marked as
    speculative citing MedLands.
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PROVENCE.htm#_ftnref348

    Thank you for the confirmation.

    The parentage of Gerberge is not directly stated in a contemporary
    source, but there is virtually no room for doubt that she must have been
    the sister (in order to have become the heiress) of Bertran II who died
    in 1090/94. His entire patrimony was given by Gerberge to her daughter
    Dulcia on 1 February 112 and then confirmed to Ramon Berenguer III of Barcelona to whom Dulcia was married two days later. Stephania aka
    Dulcia was described as Bertran II's mother in 1095 and she is the only
    known wife of his father Geoffroy I, count of Arles & marquis of
    Provence. Bertran's only child was a daughter Cecilia whose husband (a Trencavel viscount) was not on the spot and evidently not able, or
    considered suitable, to obtain a share of the inheritance.

    This may not seem absolutely water-tight, but it is appreciably more
    solid than the circumstantial evidence we have for many women in their timeframe. I don't think it has been in doubt since Georges de
    Manteyer's /La Provence du premier au douzième siècle/ (1908), and his
    view was accepted without qualification by Jean-Pierre Poly in /La
    Provence et la société féodale (879-1166)/ (1976).

    The identification of Gerberge as sister to Bertran II has been queried
    on chronological grounds, following a suggestion in Medieval Lands that
    she may have been his daughter instead.

    I don't think this holds up to scrutiny as well as the alternative,
    which has been almost universally accepted over centuries by specialists
    in Provençal history.

    When Bertran II died (on 8 July in 1090/94) there was a succession
    crisis in Provence. As Poly described it, his cousin Guillem (VI)
    Bertran had died between 1065 and 1074 leaving only a daughter Azalais
    who was married to a count of Urgell (died in 1092, succeeded by a young
    son), and Bertran's own daughter Cecile was married (Poly says in 1083, probably correct but certainly as a result of a contract agreed by 29
    September in that year, see here: http://telma.irht.cnrs.fr/outils/originaux/charte2760/) to a viscount of Béziers. Gerberge was married to Gerbert of Gévaudan, who occurs in 1107
    and 1110 dispensing justice in Avignon as the only count left in
    Provence. He died not long after 1110 and by February 1112 Gerberge gave
    the whole patrimony of Bertran II to the count of Barcelona as the new
    husband of her only child, Dulcia.

    Making Gerberge into a sister of Cecile (who was married late in or
    shortly after 1083) does not obviate the problem that the former was
    apparently married as a mature woman, presumably after the death of
    Bertran II. Whether as his daughter or his younger sister, she would
    have been aged in her mid-20s to mid-30s. She may have been a widow from
    an unknown first marriage, or perhaps a nun released from her vows in
    order to marry so that Provence could have a count when urgently needed.
    The husband of Cecile was ineligible, according to Manteyer, because by
    the custom of Provence she had forfeited inheritance rights when a dowry
    was provided on her marriage: this complication evidently did not arise
    with Gerberge's husband, Gerbert of Gévaudan, and given that his
    daughter Dulcia was marriageable in 1112 this was very likely because
    his marriage was arranged in 1090/94 in view of the difficulty for
    Bertran II's son-in-law of Béziers and presumably also for Guillem (VI) Bertran's son-in-law of Urgell. The fact that Gerberge had only one
    child by 1112 suggests that she may have been nearer to 35 than 25 when marrying Gerbert by the mid-1090s.

    Cecile had several daughters, the eldest two being named after her
    husband's mother Ermengarde and her own mother Mathilde (in a diminutive
    form, Matheline). Gerberge's daughter on the other hand was named Dulcia
    after Bertran II's mother Stephania Dulcia, who was more plausibly
    Gerberge's own mother rather than her paternal grandmother.

    Peter Stewart

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  • From Charlene@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 23 20:15:13 2021
    John Beaumont, otherwise Bodrugan, married Isabel daughter of Thomas Kawoodlegh (as in the Beaumont pedigree in the 1564 visitation of Devon).
    The Ancient Sepulchral Effigies and Monumental and Memorial Sculpture of Devon https://books.google.com.au/books?id=TnQgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA377

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  • From Charlene@21:1/5 to taf on Tue Nov 23 19:41:22 2021
    On Wednesday, 24 November 2021 at 12:16:39 UTC+10, taf wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:12:57 PM UTC-8, Charlene wrote:

    William Courtenay d. 1512 and Cicely Cheney are recorded with a daughter Joan in the visitation of Devon in 1564.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c2524477&view=1up&seq=87&skin=2021

    In Vivian's visitations of Devon 1531, 1564, & 1620 with additions, their daughter Joan Courtenay is recorded as the wife of William Beaumont.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213917&view=1up&seq=260&skin=2021

    There is a William Beaumont d. 1454 who married Joan Courtenay.
    Vivian may well be confused here. The 1564 visitation of Devon volume includes a Beamont pedigree that shows William Beaumont marrying Joan, eldest daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay. The pedigree in question may not have been in the original version of
    the visitation int he COllege of Arms, as it is taken from a manuscript in the Bodlean, but nonetheless, it looks to me like Vivian's compilation volume has created a chimera of two different Joans.

    taf

    Based on her husband's death in 1454, that Joan would have to be the eldest daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay d.1463 and Elizabeth Hungerford. If so, there's a good reason why she has been omitted from Courtenay pedigrees.

    From A Treatise on the Law of Adulterine Bastardy:

    William Beaumont, son and heir apparent of Sir Thomas Beaumont, of Devonshire, married Joan Courtenay, and died without issue in the 32nd Hen. VI., 1454. He had been separated from his wife above two years before his death," he living in London and she
    in Devonshire, almost eight score miles asunder;" and it appears that she had an illicit intercourse during that period with Henry Bodrugan, whom she married soon after her husband's decease. The estates of the Beaumont family were inherited by the said
    William Beaumont's brothers and half brothers successively, until about the year 1490; but on the death of the last surviving brother, the lands were claimed by his daughter and heiress, and by the issue of a sister of the whole Hen. VII. blood of
    William Beaumont. Another claimant, however, presented himself in the person of the son of the above-mentioned Joan Courtenay, who, having been born during her marriage with her first husband, pretended, after a lapse of upwards of thirty-five years, to
    be her son by William Beaumont. Sir William Pole says, “the controversy grew into such a height, that it was brought before Parliament,” and that “all the proofs of the case were exhibited; but the Parliament would not assent to change the laws of
    England, to make a bastard which was born in wedlock ?.” It was however agreed, that it should be proclaimed throughout the country that “ he was to be named John, the son of Joan Bodrugan, and so to be esteemed a bastard ?.” This decision did not
    prevent his obtaining part of the Beaumont property, as an amicable arrangement was made, by which the manor of Giddesham, in the county of Devon, and other lands, were assigned to him. His descendants, if not he, himself, assumed the name of Beaumont;
    they were allowed the Arms of that family by the Heralds, without any mark to denote illegitimacy; Beaumont's

    From the discovery catalogue:

    Thomas Beamont esquire, John Denys, John Reigny and John Incledene with John Beamont esquire

    For termination of lawsuits between Thomas Beamont and John Beamont including that whereby John Beamont "was Founde Bastard"

    Conveyance to be made to Philip Courtenay knight, Edmond Courtenay, Water (sic) Courtenay, Thomas Lucombe, Richard Flamak and John Pelyn of an estate worth £86 13s 4d from manors and lands in Cornwall, Devon and Somerset for John Beaumont for life

    Conveyance to be made to Thomas Calwodeley, Lowes Pollard, Clerk, William Trewynard and Ralf Amron of an estate worth £20 from manors and lands in Somerset for Thomas Beamont for life, Provisions for descent of the Beamont estates in the event of the
    prior decease of Thomas Beamont, John Beamont, and of Blanche wife of Bartholemew Selynger and of Isabell wife of John Halewill

    Seven statutes staple to be given by Thomas Beamont to Harry Bedrugan, knight under which the estates of the latter and of Jane his wife were put in extent

    Dated: 4 August 15 Edward IV (1475) https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/077c0ed5-54c1-4f81-9cfe-48e0035a2999

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  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to Charlene on Tue Nov 23 21:29:42 2021
    On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:12:57 PM UTC-8, Charlene wrote:
    Thank you. I knew that section of the line would be problematic. I did have doubts.

    William Courtenay d. 1512 and Cicely Cheney are recorded with a daughter Joan in the visitation of Devon in 1564.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c2524477&view=1up&seq=87&skin=2021

    In Vivian's visitations of Devon 1531, 1564, & 1620 with additions, their daughter Joan Courtenay is recorded as the wife of William Beaumont.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213917&view=1up&seq=260&skin=2021

    There is a William Beaumont d. 1454 who married Joan Courtenay.
    See A Treatise on the Law of Adulterine Bastardy https://books.google.com.au/books?id=DkBfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q&f=false She cannot be the same Joan Courtenay who was born in 1468 (if that's her correct birth date). That leaves it open for her being the Joan Courtenay (daughter of William Courtenay of Powderham) who married William Carew as in the Carew pedigree.
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c2524477&view=1up&seq=50&skin=2021

    Cicely Cheyne/Cheney's matrilineal line can be traced another 3 generations back.
    Brad Verity noted the incorrect placement of Joan Courtenay (m. Sir William Carew), as well as that of Joan Courtenay (m. William Beaumont) in a post here on 7 May 2012.
    https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/q1-cpCLHTZk/m/ZMkYjY8DcDIJ

    Vivian's editions of both Cornwall and Devon are in error in the placement of both Joan Courtenays.

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  • From Charlene@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 23 21:45:53 2021
    Brad Verity noted the incorrect placement of Joan Courtenay (m. Sir William Carew), as well as that of Joan Courtenay (m. William Beaumont) in a post here on 7 May 2012.
    https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/q1-cpCLHTZk/m/ZMkYjY8DcDIJ

    Vivian's editions of both Cornwall and Devon are in error in the placement of both Joan Courtenays.

    Thank you. I missed that. It's good we came to the same conclusion.

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