Are there any cases of Croatian nobility marrying other European nobility? I haven't found any though I don't know where to look.
Are there any cases of Croatian nobility marrying other European nobility? I haven't found any though I don't know where to look.
On 20-Nov-21 12:24 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Are there any cases of Croatian nobility marrying other European nobility? I haven't found any though I don't know where to look.
Also the Erdődy family, Hungarian but including at least one ban of Croatia, and the Frankopani (or in western Europe Frangipani) family.
I may be wrong (in my previous post) about where the Odescalchi
originated, but they were certainly associated with Croatia over centuries.
Peter Stewart
A sábado, 20 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 04:09:17 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 20-Nov-21 12:24 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Are there any cases of Croatian nobility marrying other European nobility? I haven't found any though I don't know where to look.Also the Erdődy family, Hungarian but including at least one ban of
Croatia, and the Frankopani (or in western Europe Frangipani) family.
I may be wrong (in my previous post) about where the Odescalchi
originated, but they were certainly associated with Croatia over centuries. >>
Peter Stewart
I knew about that case. Did the foreign Bans of Croatia ever marry their daughters with Croatian nobles?
A sábado, 20 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 21:57:03 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:War.
On 20-Nov-21 10:35 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A sábado, 20 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 04:09:17 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:Why not? I was offering you a starting point, as requested, not
On 20-Nov-21 12:24 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Are there any cases of Croatian nobility marrying other European nobility? I haven't found any though I don't know where to look.Also the Erdődy family, Hungarian but including at least one ban of
Croatia, and the Frankopani (or in western Europe Frangipani) family.
I may be wrong (in my previous post) about where the Odescalchi
originated, but they were certainly associated with Croatia over centuries.
Peter Stewart
I knew about that case. Did the foreign Bans of Croatia ever marry their daughters with Croatian nobles?
proposing a research effort on my own part. Most of the "foreign" bans
or dukes would have been mature men already married when they came to
power in Croatia.
To give an instance of a Croatian princess marrying outside Catholic
Europe after the Great Schism:
in the mid-12th century a daughter of Belush, ban of Croatia, married
Vladimir III Mstislavich, grand prince of Kiev.
To give a few instances the other way round, of Croatian rulers marrying
"foreigners" (a notion that was somewhat different in medieval Croatia
from the sense it may carry in modern Portugal):
Zvonimir Dmitar, king of Croatia and Dalmatia in the late-11th century
married Jelena, daughter of Bela I, king of Hungary
Stefan Kotromanič, ban of Croatia in the mid-14th century, married a
Polish princess.
in the late-15th century Stefan Frangepan married a widowed countess of
Urbino whose father was Niccolo d'Este, marquis of Modena.
Peter Stewart
Thanks for this, Peter. The reason I asked this is I have found it hard to find Charlemagne lines to Croatia. We should note Croatia became subject to Hungary at the end of the 11th century. It was later devastated in the Hundred Years'Croatian-Ottoman
On 20-Nov-21 10:35 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A sábado, 20 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 04:09:17 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 20-Nov-21 12:24 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Are there any cases of Croatian nobility marrying other European nobility? I haven't found any though I don't know where to look.Also the Erdődy family, Hungarian but including at least one ban of
Croatia, and the Frankopani (or in western Europe Frangipani) family.
I may be wrong (in my previous post) about where the Odescalchi
originated, but they were certainly associated with Croatia over centuries.
Peter Stewart
I knew about that case. Did the foreign Bans of Croatia ever marry their daughters with Croatian nobles?Why not? I was offering you a starting point, as requested, not
proposing a research effort on my own part. Most of the "foreign" bans
or dukes would have been mature men already married when they came to
power in Croatia.
To give an instance of a Croatian princess marrying outside Catholic
Europe after the Great Schism:
in the mid-12th century a daughter of Belush, ban of Croatia, married Vladimir III Mstislavich, grand prince of Kiev.
To give a few instances the other way round, of Croatian rulers marrying "foreigners" (a notion that was somewhat different in medieval Croatia
from the sense it may carry in modern Portugal):
Zvonimir Dmitar, king of Croatia and Dalmatia in the late-11th century married Jelena, daughter of Bela I, king of Hungary
Stefan Kotromanič, ban of Croatia in the mid-14th century, married a
Polish princess.
in the late-15th century Stefan Frangepan married a widowed countess of Urbino whose father was Niccolo d'Este, marquis of Modena.
Peter Stewart
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?
On 22-Nov-21 1:43 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks.
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?
I didn't realise this was your chase - I don't read through every SGM post.
A reasonably likely place to start searching for conduits of Carolingian ancestry to the eastern side of the Adriatic would be the Angevins of Naples.
Peter Stewart
A domingo, 21 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 21:34:02 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 1:43 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?
I didn't realise this was your chase - I don't read through every SGM post.
A reasonably likely place to start searching for conduits of Carolingian ancestry to the eastern side of the Adriatic would be the Angevins of Naples.
Peter StewartThanks.
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 00:09:50 UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
A domingo, 21 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 21:34:02 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 1:43 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks.
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?I didn't realise this was your chase - I don't read through every SGM post. >>>
A reasonably likely place to start searching for conduits of Carolingian >>> ancestry to the eastern side of the Adriatic would be the Angevins of
Naples.
Peter Stewart
I said "cut to the chase" as I hadn't been outspoken about what I was actually looking for.
On 22-Nov-21 11:11 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks for this. Regardless, how was Béla I descended from Charlemagne? I don't see such a line.
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 00:09:50 UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
A domingo, 21 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 21:34:02 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 1:43 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks.
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?I didn't realise this was your chase - I don't read through every SGM post.
A reasonably likely place to start searching for conduits of Carolingian >>> ancestry to the eastern side of the Adriatic would be the Angevins of >>> Naples.
Peter Stewart
I said "cut to the chase" as I hadn't been outspoken about what I was actually looking for.
You may find some useful lead in this book (though I recommend caution
with unverifiable claims): https://books.google.com.au/books?id=dkXoQAAACAAJ.
Whatever else you find, it seems highly likely to me that Carolingian
blood would have entered Croatia by the late medieval period through Hungarian and Slovene connections that were more integrated with western European lineages. Kings of Hungary married several women from Germany, France and other western parts, and these princesses surely brought
lesser noble ladies with them who would have married locally.
Also the rulers of Istria and Carniola from the early 11th century were originally from Weimar - the first of them, Poppo I, married a daughter
of Wezellin, count of Istria; their son Udalrich I (died 1070) married a daughter of Béla I of Hungary, a descendant of Charlemagne.
Peter Stewart
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 02:16:04 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 11:11 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks for this. Regardless, how was Béla I descended from Charlemagne? I don't see such a line.
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 00:09:50 UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:You may find some useful lead in this book (though I recommend caution
A domingo, 21 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 21:34:02 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 1:43 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks.
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?I didn't realise this was your chase - I don't read through every SGM post.
A reasonably likely place to start searching for conduits of Carolingian >>>>> ancestry to the eastern side of the Adriatic would be the Angevins of >>>>> Naples.
Peter Stewart
I said "cut to the chase" as I hadn't been outspoken about what I was actually looking for.
with unverifiable claims):
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=dkXoQAAACAAJ.
Whatever else you find, it seems highly likely to me that Carolingian
blood would have entered Croatia by the late medieval period through
Hungarian and Slovene connections that were more integrated with western
European lineages. Kings of Hungary married several women from Germany,
France and other western parts, and these princesses surely brought
lesser noble ladies with them who would have married locally.
Also the rulers of Istria and Carniola from the early 11th century were
originally from Weimar - the first of them, Poppo I, married a daughter
of Wezellin, count of Istria; their son Udalrich I (died 1070) married a
daughter of Béla I of Hungary, a descendant of Charlemagne.
Peter Stewart
On 22-Nov-21 9:38 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 02:16:04 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:Not Béla - I meant his daughter was a descendant of Charlemagne, through her Polish mother, but on looking more carefully I see that this is uncertain. The questionable link is Reginlind, wife of Burkhard II of Swabia, who may (or may not) have been a great-granddaughter of Louis
On 22-Nov-21 11:11 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks for this. Regardless, how was Béla I descended from Charlemagne? I don't see such a line.
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 00:09:50 UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:You may find some useful lead in this book (though I recommend caution
A domingo, 21 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 21:34:02 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 1:43 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks.
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?I didn't realise this was your chase - I don't read through every SGM post.
A reasonably likely place to start searching for conduits of Carolingian
ancestry to the eastern side of the Adriatic would be the Angevins of >>>>> Naples.
Peter Stewart
I said "cut to the chase" as I hadn't been outspoken about what I was actually looking for.
with unverifiable claims):
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=dkXoQAAACAAJ.
Whatever else you find, it seems highly likely to me that Carolingian
blood would have entered Croatia by the late medieval period through
Hungarian and Slovene connections that were more integrated with western >> European lineages. Kings of Hungary married several women from Germany, >> France and other western parts, and these princesses surely brought
lesser noble ladies with them who would have married locally.
Also the rulers of Istria and Carniola from the early 11th century were >> originally from Weimar - the first of them, Poppo I, married a daughter >> of Wezellin, count of Istria; their son Udalrich I (died 1070) married a >> daughter of Béla I of Hungary, a descendant of Charlemagne.
Peter Stewart
I's daughter Gisla.
Peter Stewart
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 12:14:01 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 9:38 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 02:16:04 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:Not Béla - I meant his daughter was a descendant of Charlemagne, through
On 22-Nov-21 11:11 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks for this. Regardless, how was Béla I descended from Charlemagne? I don't see such a line.
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 00:09:50 UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:You may find some useful lead in this book (though I recommend caution >>>> with unverifiable claims):
A domingo, 21 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 21:34:02 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 1:43 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks.
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?I didn't realise this was your chase - I don't read through every SGM post.
A reasonably likely place to start searching for conduits of Carolingian
ancestry to the eastern side of the Adriatic would be the Angevins of >>>>>>> Naples.
Peter Stewart
I said "cut to the chase" as I hadn't been outspoken about what I was actually looking for.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=dkXoQAAACAAJ.
Whatever else you find, it seems highly likely to me that Carolingian
blood would have entered Croatia by the late medieval period through
Hungarian and Slovene connections that were more integrated with western >>>> European lineages. Kings of Hungary married several women from Germany, >>>> France and other western parts, and these princesses surely brought
lesser noble ladies with them who would have married locally.
Also the rulers of Istria and Carniola from the early 11th century were >>>> originally from Weimar - the first of them, Poppo I, married a daughter >>>> of Wezellin, count of Istria; their son Udalrich I (died 1070) married a >>>> daughter of Béla I of Hungary, a descendant of Charlemagne.
Peter Stewart
her Polish mother, but on looking more carefully I see that this is
uncertain. The questionable link is Reginlind, wife of Burkhard II of
Swabia, who may (or may not) have been a great-granddaughter of Louis
I's daughter Gisla.
Peter Stewart
That hinges on Gisela's daughter Judith having married Adalbert of Thurgau. How likely do you find that?
On 23-Nov-21 11:20 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks.
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 12:14:01 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 9:38 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 02:16:04 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:Not Béla - I meant his daughter was a descendant of Charlemagne, through >> her Polish mother, but on looking more carefully I see that this is
On 22-Nov-21 11:11 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks for this. Regardless, how was Béla I descended from Charlemagne? I don't see such a line.
A segunda-feira, 22 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 00:09:50 UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:You may find some useful lead in this book (though I recommend caution >>>> with unverifiable claims):
A domingo, 21 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 21:34:02 UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
On 22-Nov-21 1:43 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:Thanks.
Let's cut to the chase, Peter: Is there any plausible descent from Charlemagne for most or all Croats? Is there any couple through who such a descent could come?I didn't realise this was your chase - I don't read through every SGM post.
A reasonably likely place to start searching for conduits of Carolingian
ancestry to the eastern side of the Adriatic would be the Angevins of
Naples.
Peter Stewart
I said "cut to the chase" as I hadn't been outspoken about what I was actually looking for.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=dkXoQAAACAAJ.
Whatever else you find, it seems highly likely to me that Carolingian >>>> blood would have entered Croatia by the late medieval period through >>>> Hungarian and Slovene connections that were more integrated with western
European lineages. Kings of Hungary married several women from Germany, >>>> France and other western parts, and these princesses surely brought >>>> lesser noble ladies with them who would have married locally.
Also the rulers of Istria and Carniola from the early 11th century were >>>> originally from Weimar - the first of them, Poppo I, married a daughter >>>> of Wezellin, count of Istria; their son Udalrich I (died 1070) married a
daughter of Béla I of Hungary, a descendant of Charlemagne.
Peter Stewart
uncertain. The questionable link is Reginlind, wife of Burkhard II of
Swabia, who may (or may not) have been a great-granddaughter of Louis
I's daughter Gisla.
Peter Stewart
That hinges on Gisela's daughter Judith having married Adalbert of Thurgau. How likely do you find that?Not very likely, but that isn't the connection route I had in mind
before checking.
We know that the mother-in-law of Burkhard II of Swabia (mother of the double-duchess Reginlind and ancestor of the Polish wife of Béla I of Hungary) was named Gisla. In her time this is usually if not invariably
a signifier of Carolingian ancestry. She may have been a niece of king Berengar I, but if so I think his sister Judith (if indeed she ever
married) is not the most plausible sibling as candidate for this Gisla's parent.
We don't know the name of the daughter of Berengar's elder brother
Unruoch III of Friuli who was kidnapped from her convent and forced to
marry a nephew of the arch-chancellor bishop Liutward of Vercelli - it
is fairly likely, as the only recorded child and potential heiress of Unruoch, that she was named after her paternal grandmother, an imperial princess; and it has been speculated that she was later married to
Walfrid, count of Verona, who occurs as marquis of Friuli. Walfrid may
have been the father of Reginlind, though there is no certainty about this.
Peter Stewart
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