He's a friend's ancestor.

We have marriage certificate 2016-10-11 in Gateshead register office,
between Joseph McDonald 28 and Mary Flanigan (yes, spelt like that) 22.
(Yes, I know ages are often wrong on MCs, though I can't think of a
reason he/they should _deliberately_ lie about either. She was already pregnant.) The MC is of course a copy of an entry in the register book
of marriages, but is actually made on the date of the marriage, by the Gateshead registrar, i. e. locally.

It says about Joseph:
Bachelor;
Private Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (Machineman Engineering
Works);
residence: Gosforth Park;
father: John James McDonald, Labourer in Engineering Works.

(Mary was living in Gateshead. For those that don't know the area - it's Newcastle upon Tyne: Gateshead is on the south side of the river,
Newcastle on the north, and Gosforth [then, anyway] a little north of Newcastle; Gosforth Park is where the racecourse is. The river was the
county boundary - county Durham was south of the river [i. e. Gateshead
was in it], Northumberland north [Newcastle and Gosforth]. [It's all
"Tyne and Wear" now, since about 1971.])

I haven't been able to find his birth (or parents) with any
definiteness: ideas welcome!

His military records: The MC is the only mention of the KOYLI, but
apparently there is a KOYLI stamp on the back (maybe he was given a
day's leave to get married and that's their way of accepting it as proof
that he did when he got back to barracks?). The MC - see above - does
_not_ give his serial number.

We have a BC, 1918-8-28 in Gateshead, for a boy James, father Joseph
McDonald, mother Mary McDonald formerly Flanigan; with that combination
of names, especially the unusual spelling of Flanigan, and the place,
I'm pretty sure it's the same couple. But the father's occupation is
given as "No 10644 Rifleman Royal Irish Rifles (Stone Mason)".
Unusually, the birth was registered on the day of the birth (though by
someone "present at the Birth", not either parent).

We have a medal card and roll entry for the usual Victory and British
medals. The card says

MACDONALD R. Ir. Rif Pte 10644
Joseph. Wilts R 27805

and the roll says

27805 Pte MACDONALD 1st R.Ir.Rif. Class Z. 29.5.19
Joseph 10644 Pte
6th Wilts R. 27805

(I know class Z was those who could be recalled at short notice if
Germany did not accept the surrender terms.)


So it looks as if he was in _three_ regiments: KOYLI, R.Ir.Rif, and
Wiltshire Regiment (Duke of Edinburgh´s), with the first serial number
(10644) being used for two of them. And also perhaps recalled to a
reserved occupation - though rather different ones!

I know various regiments were amalgamated into/absorbed by others, when military action sadly reduced their numbers below viability. Was he just unfortunate to have this happen twice (or, if in reserved work at home,
the regiments he was _nominally_ part of unfortunate in that way), or is something else going on? (I can't find the oodles of pages of military
odds and ends I've found for some other soldiers; I presume his is one
of the "burnt records".)

And what's with the varying occupation - from same (-ish) as his dad, to
Stone Mason (which I'd have _thought_ takes more than two years)?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You can be tough without being rude - Nick Clegg, 2014 July

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/11/2020 21:36, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

He's a friend's ancestor.

We have marriage certificate 2016-10-11 in Gateshead register office,
between Joseph McDonald 28 and Mary Flanigan (yes, spelt like that) 22.
(Yes, I know ages are often wrong on MCs, though I can't think of a
reason he/they should _deliberately_ lie about either. She was already pregnant.) The MC is of course a copy of an entry in the register book
of marriages, but is actually made on the date of the marriage, by the Gateshead registrar, i. e. locally.

It says about Joseph:
Bachelor;
Private Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (Machineman Engineering
Works);
residence: Gosforth Park;
father: John James McDonald, Labourer in Engineering Works.

(Mary was living in Gateshead. For those that don't know the area - it's Newcastle upon Tyne: Gateshead is on the south side of the river,
Newcastle on the north, and Gosforth [then, anyway] a little north of Newcastle; Gosforth Park is where the racecourse is. The river was the
county boundary - county Durham was south of the river [i. e. Gateshead
was in it], Northumberland north [Newcastle and Gosforth]. [It's all
"Tyne and Wear" now, since about 1971.])

I haven't been able to find his birth (or parents) with any
definiteness: ideas welcome!

His military records: The MC is the only mention of the KOYLI, but
apparently there is a KOYLI stamp on the back (maybe he was given a
day's leave to get married and that's their way of accepting it as proof
that he did when he got back to barracks?). The MC - see above - does
_not_ give his serial number.

We have a BC, 1918-8-28 in Gateshead, for a boy James, father Joseph McDonald, mother Mary McDonald formerly Flanigan; with that combination
of names, especially the unusual spelling of Flanigan, and the place,
I'm pretty sure it's the same couple. But the father's occupation is
given as "No 10644 Rifleman Royal Irish Rifles (Stone Mason)".
Unusually, the birth was registered on the day of the birth (though by someone "present at the Birth", not either parent).

We have a medal card and roll entry for the usual Victory and British
medals. The card says

MACDONALD R. Ir. Rif Pte 10644
Joseph. Wilts R 27805

and the roll says

27805 Pte MACDONALD 1st R.Ir.Rif. Class Z. 29.5.19
Joseph 10644 Pte
6th Wilts R. 27805

(I know class Z was those who could be recalled at short notice if
Germany did not accept the surrender terms.)

So it looks as if he was in _three_ regiments: KOYLI, R.Ir.Rif, and
Wiltshire Regiment (Duke of Edinburgh´s), with the first serial number (10644) being used for two of them. And also perhaps recalled to a
reserved occupation - though rather different ones!

I know various regiments were amalgamated into/absorbed by others, when military action sadly reduced their numbers below viability. Was he just unfortunate to have this happen twice (or, if in reserved work at home,
the regiments he was _nominally_ part of unfortunate in that way), or is something else going on? (I can't find the oodles of pages of military
odds and ends I've found for some other soldiers; I presume his is one
of the "burnt records".)

And what's with the varying occupation - from same (-ish) as his dad, to Stone Mason (which I'd have _thought_ takes more than two years)?

There are public trees on Ancestry for Joseph Martin McDonald McDonough McDonnell Macdonald, b 4 Dec 1886, Derby, Derbyshire, England. His
marriage and his children agree with your research
Father John James McDonald McDonnell McDonough (b 1856 Mayo, Ireland d
1922 Derby)
Mother Mary O'Malley (b 1860 Mayo d 1904 Derby)
but I'm not sure any of the links to the identified parents is correct.

There are no census entries for the parents after 1901. In 1901 his
father is a "hostler" at a stables in Derby and there is a son Joseph
RG13 P3217 f181 p30

It looks as though it is all joined by the 1911 England Census Class:
RG14; Piece: 20883 where there is a Joseph McDonald, fitters labourer
living in a Lodging House 47 Bridge Gate, Derby, born in Derby

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 at 23:05:32, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:

On 11/11/2020 21:36, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

He's a friend's ancestor.
We have marriage certificate 2016-10-11 in Gateshead register
office,
between Joseph McDonald 28 and Mary Flanigan (yes, spelt like that) 22.
(Yes, I know ages are often wrong on MCs, though I can't think of a
reason he/they should _deliberately_ lie about either. She was already
pregnant.) The MC is of course a copy of an entry in the register book
of marriages, but is actually made on the date of the marriage, by the
Gateshead registrar, i. e. locally.
It says about Joseph:
Bachelor;
Private Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (Machineman Engineering
Works);
residence: Gosforth Park;
father: John James McDonald, Labourer in Engineering Works.
(Mary was living in Gateshead. For those that don't know the area -
it's
Newcastle upon Tyne: Gateshead is on the south side of the river,
Newcastle on the north, and Gosforth [then, anyway] a little north of
Newcastle; Gosforth Park is where the racecourse is. The river was the
county boundary - county Durham was south of the river [i. e. Gateshead
was in it], Northumberland north [Newcastle and Gosforth]. [It's all
"Tyne and Wear" now, since about 1971.])
I haven't been able to find his birth (or parents) with any
definiteness: ideas welcome!
His military records: The MC is the only mention of the KOYLI, but
apparently there is a KOYLI stamp on the back (maybe he was given a
day's leave to get married and that's their way of accepting it as proof
that he did when he got back to barracks?). The MC - see above - does
_not_ give his serial number.
We have a BC, 1918-8-28 in Gateshead, for a boy James, father Joseph
McDonald, mother Mary McDonald formerly Flanigan; with that combination
of names, especially the unusual spelling of Flanigan, and the place,
I'm pretty sure it's the same couple. But the father's occupation is
given as "No 10644 Rifleman Royal Irish Rifles (Stone Mason)".
Unusually, the birth was registered on the day of the birth (though by
someone "present at the Birth", not either parent).
We have a medal card and roll entry for the usual Victory and
British
medals. The card says
MACDONALD R. Ir. Rif Pte 10644
Joseph. Wilts R 27805
and the roll says
27805 Pte MACDONALD 1st R.Ir.Rif. Class Z.
29.5.19
Joseph 10644 Pte
6th Wilts R. 27805
(I know class Z was those who could be recalled at short notice if
Germany did not accept the surrender terms.)
So it looks as if he was in _three_ regiments: KOYLI, R.Ir.Rif, and
Wiltshire Regiment (Duke of Edinburgh´s), with the first serial number
(10644) being used for two of them. And also perhaps recalled to a
reserved occupation - though rather different ones!
I know various regiments were amalgamated into/absorbed by others,
when
military action sadly reduced their numbers below viability. Was he just
unfortunate to have this happen twice (or, if in reserved work at home,
the regiments he was _nominally_ part of unfortunate in that way), or is
something else going on? (I can't find the oodles of pages of military
odds and ends I've found for some other soldiers; I presume his is one
of the "burnt records".)
And what's with the varying occupation - from same (-ish) as his
dad, to
Stone Mason (which I'd have _thought_ takes more than two years)?

There are public trees on Ancestry for Joseph Martin McDonald McDonough >McDonnell Macdonald, b 4 Dec 1886, Derby, Derbyshire, England. His

Yes, I know about him - but by 1916-10-11, he'd be ten months past his
29th birthday, so why say he was only 28? As I said, I know ages at
marriage are often wrong, but that's usually so both parents are "of
full age".

marriage and his children agree with your research
Father John James McDonald McDonnell McDonough (b 1856 Mayo, Ireland d
1922 Derby)
Mother Mary O'Malley (b 1860 Mayo d 1904 Derby)
but I'm not sure any of the links to the identified parents is correct.

There are no census entries for the parents after 1901. In 1901 his

(Assuming they _are_ the parents.) (H)ostler would work with his
profession of "Cart man" on the BC of the Derby birth, too. But he seems
to be alive at the 1916 marriage, and in an Engineering Works.

father is a "hostler" at a stables in Derby and there is a son Joseph
RG13 P3217 f181 p30

It looks as though it is all joined by the 1911 England Census Class:
RG14; Piece: 20883 where there is a Joseph McDonald, fitters labourer
living in a Lodging House 47 Bridge Gate, Derby, born in Derby

He has to get to Newcastle area by 1916 (though sure that isn't
impossible). Fitters Labourer to Machineman I suppose isn't that far a
stretch, though to Stone Mason two years later certainly sounds unusual,
at least.

Roll on the 1921 census - maybe that'll show whether the Newcastle-area
family have Derby roots. (I'd been assuming it would come out next year,
but my friend thinks 2022-1-1 - anyone know?)

Any thoughts on the military career? (And thanks again for looking.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bother," said Pooh, as he tasted the bacon in his sandwich.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:36:35 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

He's a friend's ancestor.

We have marriage certificate 2016-10-11 in Gateshead register office,
between Joseph McDonald 28 and Mary Flanigan (yes, spelt like that) 22.
(Yes, I know ages are often wrong on MCs, though I can't think of a
reason he/they should _deliberately_ lie about either. She was already >pregnant.) [...]

I know of a 20C marriage where the bride lied about her age (wanted to
appear under 25) to the man courting her and was only discovered to
have done so when a birth certificate was needed in her old age and
the registrar, having searched for the date she had given, came back
to her and her accompaning daughter to check he had noted the date
correctly - apparently the woman, well over 80, went bright red and
said "Try two years earlier".

A more extreme case was a great-great-grandmother of mine - listed as
aged 11 in the 1841 census (highly likely given the date of marriage
of her parents and the ages of her older and younger siblings), 18 in
the 1851 census, and 18 when she married in 1856 (6 or 7 months
pregnant). After the marriage, she aged at the normal rate, but did
not regain the lost years.

It's also possible for information to be misheard / mistranscribed/ misunderstood and not noticed in time (or much cared about).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/11/2020 03:07, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 at 23:05:32, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:

On 11/11/2020 21:36, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

He's a friend's ancestor.
 We have marriage certificate 2016-10-11 in Gateshead register office,
between Joseph McDonald 28 and Mary Flanigan (yes, spelt like that) 22.
(Yes, I know ages are often wrong on MCs, though I can't think of a
reason he/they should _deliberately_ lie about either. She was already
pregnant.) The MC is of course a copy of an entry in the register book
of marriages, but is actually made on the date of the marriage, by the
Gateshead registrar, i. e. locally.
 It says about Joseph:
Bachelor;
Private Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (Machineman Engineering
Works);
residence: Gosforth Park;
father: John James McDonald, Labourer in Engineering Works.
 (Mary was living in Gateshead. For those that don't know the area -
it's
Newcastle upon Tyne: Gateshead is on the south side of the river,
Newcastle on the north, and Gosforth [then, anyway] a little north of
Newcastle; Gosforth Park is where the racecourse is. The river was the
county boundary - county Durham was south of the river [i. e. Gateshead
was in it], Northumberland north [Newcastle and Gosforth]. [It's all
"Tyne and Wear" now, since about 1971.])
 I haven't been able to find his birth (or parents) with any
definiteness: ideas welcome!
 His military records: The MC is the only mention of the KOYLI, but
apparently there is a KOYLI stamp on the back (maybe he was given a
day's leave to get married and that's their way of accepting it as proof >>> that he did when he got back to barracks?). The MC - see above - does
_not_ give his serial number.
 We have a BC, 1918-8-28 in Gateshead, for a boy James, father Joseph
McDonald, mother Mary McDonald formerly Flanigan; with that combination
of names, especially the unusual spelling of Flanigan, and the place,
I'm pretty sure it's the same couple. But the father's occupation is
given as "No 10644 Rifleman Royal Irish Rifles (Stone Mason)".
Unusually, the birth was registered on the day of the birth (though by
someone "present at the Birth", not either parent).
 We have a medal card and roll entry for the usual Victory and British
medals. The card says
 MACDONALD       R. Ir. Rif      Pte     10644
Joseph.         Wilts R                 27805
 and the roll says
 27805   Pte     MACDONALD       1st R.Ir.Rif.           Class Z.
29.5.19
                 Joseph          10644 Pte
                                 6th Wilts R. 27805
 (I know class Z was those who could be recalled at short notice if
Germany did not accept the surrender terms.)
  So it looks as if he was in _three_ regiments: KOYLI, R.Ir.Rif, and
Wiltshire Regiment (Duke of Edinburgh´s), with the first serial number
(10644) being used for two of them. And also perhaps recalled to a
reserved occupation - though rather different ones!
 I know various regiments were amalgamated into/absorbed by others, when >>> military action sadly reduced their numbers below viability. Was he just >>> unfortunate to have this happen twice (or, if in reserved work at home,
the regiments he was _nominally_ part of unfortunate in that way), or is >>> something else going on? (I can't find the oodles of pages of military
odds and ends I've found for some other soldiers; I presume his is one
of the "burnt records".)
 And what's with the varying occupation - from same (-ish) as his
dad, to
Stone Mason (which I'd have _thought_ takes more than two years)?

There are public trees on Ancestry for Joseph Martin McDonald
McDonough McDonnell Macdonald, b 4 Dec 1886, Derby, Derbyshire,
England. His

Yes, I know about him - but by 1916-10-11, he'd be ten months past his
29th birthday, so why say he was only 28? As I said, I know ages at
marriage are often wrong, but that's usually so both parents are "of
full age".

marriage and his children agree with your research
Father John James McDonald McDonnell McDonough (b 1856 Mayo, Ireland d
1922 Derby)
Mother Mary O'Malley (b 1860 Mayo d 1904 Derby)
but I'm not sure any of the links to the identified parents is correct.

There are no census entries for the parents after 1901. In 1901 his

(Assuming they _are_ the parents.) (H)ostler would work with his
profession of "Cart man" on the BC of the Derby birth, too. But he seems
to be alive at the 1916 marriage, and in an Engineering Works.

father is a "hostler"  at a stables in Derby and there is a son Joseph
RG13 P3217 f181 p30

It looks as though it is all joined by the 1911 England Census Class:
RG14; Piece: 20883 where there is a Joseph McDonald, fitters labourer
living in a Lodging House 47 Bridge Gate, Derby, born in Derby

He has to get to Newcastle area by 1916 (though sure that isn't
impossible). Fitters Labourer to Machineman I suppose isn't that far a stretch, though to Stone Mason two years later certainly sounds unusual,
at least.

Roll on the 1921 census - maybe that'll show whether the Newcastle-area family have Derby roots. (I'd been assuming it would come out next year,
but my friend thinks 2022-1-1 - anyone know?)

Any thoughts on the military career? (And thanks again for looking.)

First, can you please stop posting replies interspersed with another
reply. It is hard for me (and I suspect others) to follow and sometimes
means I miss part of what you have written, especially when there are
replies to replies, etc.

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.


I think you've identified the wrong military record
I think this is the one you are looking for
Joseph MacDonald
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792575
Reference: WO 372/12/214568
Description: Medal card of MacDonald, Joseph
Yorkshire Light Infantry 18873 Private
Date: 1914-1920
the medal card includes a correction for the surname to McDonald

Name: Joseph MacDonald
Rank: Pte
Record Type: Disability
Residence Place: Wakefield
Military Service Region: North East, England
Service Number: 18873
Corps, Regiment or Unit: King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
Service Branch: Military (Army)
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: PRC Ledgers
Reference Number: 4/MM/No.2743 and Reference Number: 4/MM/No.1962

This may be his birth from GRO
MACDONNALD, JOSEPH RODGERS
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in WAKEFIELD Volume 09C Page 25

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 12:04:47, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:
[]

First, can you please stop posting replies interspersed with another
reply. It is hard for me (and I suspect others) to follow and sometimes
means I miss part of what you have written, especially when there are
replies to replies, etc.

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost) as
bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear which
points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows which
points I am not responding to at all). _If_ people numbered their
points, then responding by numbers _might_ be do-able - though would
still require the reader to scroll up and down a lot. Unless they have a phenomenal memory, and can memorise all of the first (quoted) part of
the post; even then, unless numbered or similar, reading the responses
is still difficult to tell which response goes with what - unless the
responder repeats the questions in his/her answer text.

However, I will try to insert more blank lines in my responses so they
stand out more. (As in this example.)

I think you've identified the wrong military record
I think this is the one you are looking for
Joseph MacDonald
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792575
Reference: WO 372/12/214568
Description: Medal card of MacDonald, Joseph
Yorkshire Light Infantry 18873 Private
Date: 1914-1920
the medal card includes a correction for the surname to McDonald

Secondly: thank you for this; it looks very promising!

Name: Joseph MacDonald
Rank: Pte
Record Type: Disability
Residence Place: Wakefield
Military Service Region: North East, England
Service Number: 18873
Corps, Regiment or Unit: King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
Service Branch: Military (Army)
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: PRC Ledgers
Reference Number: 4/MM/No.2743 and Reference Number: 4/MM/No.1962

This may be his birth from GRO
MACDONNALD, JOSEPH RODGERS
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in WAKEFIELD Volume 09C Page 25

I will look into that too, thanks.

John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Never rely on somebody else for your happiness.
- Bette Davis, quoted by Celia Imrie, RT 2014/3/12-18

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 09:27:02, cecilia <myths@ic24.net> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:36:35 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" ><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

He's a friend's ancestor.

We have marriage certificate 2016-10-11 in Gateshead register office, >>between Joseph McDonald 28 and Mary Flanigan (yes, spelt like that) 22. >>(Yes, I know ages are often wrong on MCs, though I can't think of a
reason he/they should _deliberately_ lie about either. She was already >>pregnant.) [...]

I know of a 20C marriage where the bride lied about her age (wanted to
appear under 25) to the man courting her and was only discovered to
have done so when a birth certificate was needed in her old age and
the registrar, having searched for the date she had given, came back
to her and her accompaning daughter to check he had noted the date
correctly - apparently the woman, well over 80, went bright red and
said "Try two years earlier".

(-:

I think in the case of the McDonalds above, other information supports
her 22; his 28 I can't say yet, as I've not convinced myself I've
_found_ any other information. (The Derby one looks the most likely.)
[]

It's also possible for information to be misheard / mistranscribed/ >misunderstood and not noticed in time (or much cared about).

Indeed.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Never raise your hand to your children. It leaves your mid-section unprotected

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/11/2020 15:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 12:04:47, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:
[]

First, can you please stop posting replies interspersed with another
reply. It is hard for me (and I suspect others) to follow and
sometimes means I miss part of what you have written, especially when
there are replies to replies, etc.

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost) as
bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear which
points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows which
points I am not responding to at all). _If_ people numbered their
points, then responding by numbers _might_ be do-able - though would
still require the reader to scroll up and down a lot. Unless they have a phenomenal memory, and can memorise all of the first (quoted) part of
the post; even then, unless numbered or similar, reading the responses
is still difficult to tell which response goes with what - unless the responder repeats the questions in his/her answer text.

However, I will try to insert more blank lines in my responses so they
stand out more. (As in this example.)

I think you've identified the wrong military record
I think this is the one you are looking for
Joseph MacDonald
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792575
Reference:     WO 372/12/214568
Description: Medal card of MacDonald, Joseph
Yorkshire Light Infantry 18873 Private
Date:  1914-1920
the medal card includes a correction for the surname to McDonald

Secondly: thank you for this; it looks very promising!

Name:  Joseph MacDonald
Rank:  Pte
Record Type:   Disability
Residence Place:       Wakefield
Military Service Region:       North East, England
Service Number:        18873
Corps, Regiment or Unit:       King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
Service Branch:        Military (Army)
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description:   PRC Ledgers
Reference Number:      4/MM/No.2743 and Reference Number:
4/MM/No.1962

This may be his birth from GRO
MACDONNALD, JOSEPH     RODGERS
GRO Reference: 1891  J Quarter in WAKEFIELD  Volume 09C  Page 25

I will look into that too, thanks.

John

Sorry, I'll not bother with your posts any more then.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

All my responses are at the end (apart from this line).

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 16:02:40, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:

On 12/11/2020 15:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 12:04:47, john
<john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr> wrote:
[]

First, can you please stop posting replies interspersed with another >>>reply. It is hard for me (and I suspect others) to follow and
sometimes means I miss part of what you have written, especially when >>>there are replies to replies, etc.

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost)
as bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear
which points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows
which points I am not responding to at all). _If_ people numbered
their points, then responding by numbers _might_ be do-able - though
would still require the reader to scroll up and down a lot. Unless
they have a phenomenal memory, and can memorise all of the first
(quoted) part of the post; even then, unless numbered or similar,
reading the responses is still difficult to tell which response goes
with what - unless the responder repeats the questions in his/her answer text.
However, I will try to insert more blank lines in my responses so
they stand out more. (As in this example.)

I think you've identified the wrong military record
I think this is the one you are looking for
Joseph MacDonald
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792575
Reference:     WO 372/12/214568
Description: Medal card of MacDonald, Joseph
Yorkshire Light Infantry 18873 Private
Date:  1914-1920
the medal card includes a correction for the surname to McDonald

Secondly: thank you for this; it looks very promising!

Name:  Joseph MacDonald
Rank:  Pte
Record Type:   Disability
Residence Place:       Wakefield
Military Service Region:       North East, England
Service Number:        18873
Corps, Regiment or Unit:       King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
Service Branch:        Military (Army)
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description:   PRC Ledgers
Reference Number:      4/MM/No.2743 and Reference Number:
4/MM/No.1962

This may be his birth from GRO
MACDONNALD, JOSEPH     RODGERS
GRO Reference: 1891  J Quarter in WAKEFIELD  Volume 09C  Page 25

I will look into that too, thanks.

John

Sorry, I'll not bother with your posts any more then.

OK, here's my previous reply all at the bottom (leaving out the bit
about interposting):

thank you for this; it looks very promising!
That looks interesting.
I will look into that too, thanks.

(-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Never rely on somebody else for your happiness.
- Bette Davis, quoted by Celia Imrie, RT 2014/3/12-18

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

OK, here's my previous reply all at the bottom (leaving out the bit
about interposting):

thank you for this; it looks very promising!
That looks interesting.
I will look into that too, thanks.

(-:

I'm with you on this one. ;-)

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/11/2020 14:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost) as
bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear which
points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows which
points I am not responding to at all).

I think this is best practice.

Ian

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/11/2020 18:35, Ian Goddard wrote:

On 12/11/2020 14:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost)
as bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear
which points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows
which points I am not responding to at all).

I think this is best practice.

Ian

Perhaps you have better Usenet readers than I do. I use Thunderbird for
my mail/groups. All I see here is an indented black-and-white jungle.

However, I must admit I'm now considering looking for a Win/Linux
replacement, having used it for the last 15 years. The recent changes
have meant I have had to stick with v68 as various add-ons I find
essential no longer work with later versions.

Still, not bothering to investigate will save me a few hours of research attempting to find a solution each time someone posts an interesting
query. Not that there seem to be many of us still around here to do so?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 10:16:37, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:

On 12/11/2020 18:35, Ian Goddard wrote:

On 12/11/2020 14:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost)
as bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear
which points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows
which points I am not responding to at all).

I think this is best practice.
Ian

Perhaps you have better Usenet readers than I do. I use Thunderbird for
my mail/groups. All I see here is an indented black-and-white jungle.

Although I don't use TB - I use Turnpike - I have notes somewhere on how
to make TB look like TP; one is the addition of an add-on that colours multi-level things to make it easier to see who posted what. (Which TP
does by default.) If you like, email me and I'll try to dig out the
notes. (IIRR, the add-on involved dates from when TB version numbers
were in single digits, so you have to fiddle, but the notes cover that
too.)

However, I must admit I'm now considering looking for a Win/Linux >replacement, having used it for the last 15 years. The recent changes
have meant I have had to stick with v68 as various add-ons I find
essential no longer work with later versions.

(Yes, I've saved the installer for whichever is the last one that works
with lots of old add-ons, in case I ever have to switch to it.)

Still, not bothering to investigate will save me a few hours of
research attempting to find a solution each time someone posts an
interesting query.

(-:

Not that there seem to be many of us still around here to do so?

Yes, the 'group does seem rather quiet!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here: this is the war room!" (Dr. Strangelove)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 13/11/2020 13:51, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 10:16:37, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:

On 12/11/2020 18:35, Ian Goddard wrote:

On 12/11/2020 14:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost)
as bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear
which points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows
which points I am not responding to at all).

 I think this is best practice.
 Ian

Perhaps you have better Usenet readers than I do. I use Thunderbird
for my mail/groups. All I see here is an indented black-and-white jungle.

Although I don't use TB - I use Turnpike - I have notes somewhere on how
to make TB look like TP; one is the addition of an add-on that colours multi-level things to make it easier to see who posted what. (Which TP
does by default.) If you like, email me and I'll try to dig out the
notes. (IIRR, the add-on involved dates from when TB version numbers
were in single digits, so you have to fiddle, but the notes cover that
too.)

However, I must admit I'm now considering looking for a Win/Linux
replacement, having used it for the last 15 years. The recent changes
have meant I have had to stick with v68 as various add-ons I find
essential no longer work with later versions.

(Yes, I've saved the installer for whichever is the last one that works
with lots of old add-ons, in case I ever have to switch to it.)

Still, not bothering to investigate will save me a few hours of
research attempting to find a solution each time someone posts an
interesting query.

(-:

Not that there seem to be many of us still around here to do so?

Yes, the 'group does seem rather quiet!

TB colours by default here (on a Mac), perhaps there is something in the settings?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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13 November 2020 at 16:32, Graeme Wall wrote:
Re: Can anyone help with Joseph McDonald 188x- - (at least in part)

However, I must admit I'm now considering looking for a Win/Linux
replacement

I use Pegasus with NewsMail / NewPost works well in windows, I have not checked if the News add-ons work as well in Linux (under Wine) Pegasus does work a treat

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 13/11/2020 09:16, john wrote:

On 12/11/2020 18:35, Ian Goddard wrote:

On 12/11/2020 14:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost)
as bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear
which points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows
which points I am not responding to at all).

I think this is best practice.

Perhaps you have better Usenet readers than I do. I use Thunderbird for
my mail/groups. All I see here is an indented black-and-white jungle.

However, I must admit I'm now considering looking for a Win/Linux replacement, having used it for the last 15 years. The recent changes
have meant I have had to stick with v68 as various add-ons I find
essential no longer work with later versions.

Still, not bothering to investigate will save me a few hours of research attempting to find a solution each time someone posts an interesting
query. Not that there seem to be many of us still around here to do so?

I use Seamonkey for which the mail/groups component is derived from
Thunderbird so I see the same thing as you.

I'm not sure how that affects things, however. It's far better to see a
point and the response to it immediately below than have the responses
to several points collected at the bottom, some of them to points made a
long way back.

Sometimes, of course, it's possible to deal with several points in a
single argument but this is by no means always the case.

It helps a lot if the post being replied is snipped to remove material
not immediately relevant to the replies. It's really a matter of seeing
the reply in context.

Ian

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 13/11/2020 14:51, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 10:16:37, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:

On 12/11/2020 18:35, Ian Goddard wrote:

On 12/11/2020 14:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost)
as bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear
which points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows
which points I am not responding to at all).

 I think this is best practice.
 Ian

Perhaps you have better Usenet readers than I do. I use Thunderbird
for my mail/groups. All I see here is an indented black-and-white jungle.

Although I don't use TB - I use Turnpike - I have notes somewhere on how
to make TB look like TP; one is the addition of an add-on that colours multi-level things to make it easier to see who posted what. (Which TP
does by default.) If you like, email me and I'll try to dig out the
notes. (IIRR, the add-on involved dates from when TB version numbers
were in single digits, so you have to fiddle, but the notes cover that
too.)

However, I must admit I'm now considering looking for a Win/Linux
replacement, having used it for the last 15 years. The recent changes
have meant I have had to stick with v68 as various add-ons I find
essential no longer work with later versions.

(Yes, I've saved the installer for whichever is the last one that works
with lots of old add-ons, in case I ever have to switch to it.)

Still, not bothering to investigate will save me a few hours of
research attempting to find a solution each time someone posts an
interesting query.

(-:

Not that there seem to be many of us still around here to do so?

Yes, the 'group does seem rather quiet!

Thank you for the suggestion a Thunderbird addon might exist. I've
found one, QuoteColors TB 68. It works. And I'll be continuing with Thunderbird 68 for a while as I rejected two other possible e-mail
clients yesterday.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/11/2020 16:02, john wrote:

On 12/11/2020 15:54, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 12:04:47, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:
[]

First, can you please stop posting replies interspersed with another
reply. It is hard for me (and I suspect others) to follow and
sometimes means I miss part of what you have written, especially when
there are replies to replies, etc.

Please just bottom post all your comments/additions in one place.

First: No. To me, posting all one's responses at the end is (almost)
as bad as posting them all at the top: interposting makes it clear
which points I am responding to (and snipping - shown by [] - shows
which points I am not responding to at all). _If_ people numbered
their points, then responding by numbers _might_ be do-able - though
would still require the reader to scroll up and down a lot. Unless
they have a phenomenal memory, and can memorise all of the first
(quoted) part of the post; even then, unless numbered or similar,
reading the responses is still difficult to tell which response goes
with what - unless the responder repeats the questions in his/her
answer text.

However, I will try to insert more blank lines in my responses so they
stand out more. (As in this example.)

I think you've identified the wrong military record
I think this is the one you are looking for
Joseph MacDonald
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792575
Reference:     WO 372/12/214568
Description: Medal card of MacDonald, Joseph
Yorkshire Light Infantry 18873 Private
Date:  1914-1920
the medal card includes a correction for the surname to McDonald

Secondly: thank you for this; it looks very promising!

Name:  Joseph MacDonald
Rank:  Pte
Record Type:   Disability
Residence Place:       Wakefield
Military Service Region:       North East, England
Service Number:        18873
Corps, Regiment or Unit:       King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry >>> Service Branch:        Military (Army)
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description:   PRC Ledgers
Reference Number:      4/MM/No.2743 and Reference Number: 4/MM/No.1962 >>>
This may be his birth from GRO
MACDONNALD, JOSEPH     RODGERS
GRO Reference: 1891  J Quarter in WAKEFIELD  Volume 09C  Page 25

I will look into that too, thanks.

John

Sorry, I'll not bother with your posts any more then.

To answer an earlier question, the England and Wales 1921 census will be
become publicly available 1 Jan 2020. It will not be released earlier,
unlike the 1911 census (Census Act 1920) It will be available online
early in 2022 on Findmypast, probably with an additional cost? I've not
seen any information on whether Findmypast will have early access for
scanning and transcribing? Once it is available, presumably Ancestry
will start work on it?

There is a second medal card as Joseph McDonald http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792574 but no
useful information

from https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry/
King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
13th (Reserve) Battalion (Pioneers)
Formed at Ripon in October 1915 from the depot companies of the 12th Bn.
Moved initially to Harrogate and then to Gosforth in May 1916.
1 September 1916 : absorbed into Training Reserve Battalions of 19th
Reserve Brigade at Newcastle.
There is then further information on the Training Reserve.

Getting back to your original Joseph McDonald query, Have you researched
the witnesses to the marriage? There is an outside possibility they may
help (perhaps another soldier/friend from his home town?)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 at 10:13:50, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:
[]

Thank you for the suggestion a Thunderbird addon might exist. I've
found one, QuoteColors TB 68. It works. And I'll be continuing with >Thunderbird 68 for a while as I rejected two other possible e-mail
clients yesterday.

Ah, I think the one I have notes on was called QuoteColors - possibly
the original of the one you've found. Glad you've found it - _does_ it
make things easier to follow for you?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

History is not the past. It is the method we have evolved of organising our ignorance of the past. - Hilary Mantel, first Reith Lecture 2017

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 at 11:08:29, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:
[]

To answer an earlier question, the England and Wales 1921 census will
be become publicly available 1 Jan 2020. It will not be released

Er ... (-:

earlier, unlike the 1911 census (Census Act 1920) It will be available

I thought that('s early release) was something to do with the Tony Blair government responding to pressure from genealogists! I forget the
details though.

online early in 2022 on Findmypast, probably with an additional cost?

Probably )-:, if precedent is anything to go by. [(-:]

I've not seen any information on whether Findmypast will have early
access for scanning and transcribing? Once it is available, presumably >Ancestry will start work on it?

I'd _hope_ they both will.

There is a second medal card as Joseph McDonald >http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792574 but no
useful information

Thanks. I'll get it anyway, for completeness.

from
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-inf >antry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry/

Useful site!

King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
13th (Reserve) Battalion (Pioneers)
Formed at Ripon in October 1915 from the depot companies of the 12th
Bn. Moved initially to Harrogate and then to Gosforth in May 1916.
1 September 1916 : absorbed into Training Reserve Battalions of 19th
Reserve Brigade at Newcastle.

My friend (relation by marriage somewhere IIRR) had found that bit;
she'd also corresponded with KOYLI, who'd told her they had no record of
being at Gosforth Park. (I'd guessed that was just where he'd stayed
while getting married.)

There is then further information on the Training Reserve.

Getting back to your original Joseph McDonald query, Have you
researched the witnesses to the marriage? There is an outside
possibility they may help (perhaps another soldier/friend from his home >town?)

looks like this:

in the |William Flanigan
Presence{ Exlu
of us, | Elizabeth Oxley

, with William and Elizabeth's names on the printed lines, and something
that looks like Exlu in between. (At first I thought it might be Oxley,
but no, it's definitely an E.) The bride's father was William T.
Flanigan, and I don't have _note_ of her having any brothers William, so
it could be him. (I have no Oxley anywhere in my data.) [I'm happy to
share all I have - is your email valid?] With the unusual spelling of
Flanigan, I'd be pretty sure William is a relative of Mary; so, I fear
there's no help there. Was a good thought though!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

History is not the past. It is the method we have evolved of organising our ignorance of the past. - Hilary Mantel, first Reith Lecture 2017

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 14/11/2020 16:27, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 at 10:13:50, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:
[]

Thank you for the suggestion a Thunderbird  addon might exist. I've
found one, QuoteColors TB 68. It works. And I'll be continuing with
Thunderbird 68 for a while as I rejected two other possible e-mail
clients yesterday.

Ah, I think the one I have notes on was called QuoteColors - possibly
the original of the one you've found. Glad you've found it - _does_ it
make things easier to follow for you?

Yes, QuoteColors make everything so much clearer!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 14/11/2020 16:46, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 at 11:08:29, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:
[]

To answer an earlier question, the England and Wales 1921 census will
be become publicly available 1 Jan 2020. It will not be released

Er ... (-:

Yes, 1 Jan 2022, as I wrote later

earlier, unlike the 1911 census (Census Act 1920) It will be available

The (Census Act 1920)

I thought that('s early release) was something to do with the Tony Blair government responding to pressure from genealogists! I forget the
details though.

online early in 2022 on Findmypast, probably with an additional cost?

Probably )-:, if precedent is anything to go by. [(-:]

I've not seen any information on whether Findmypast will have early
access for scanning and transcribing? Once it is available, presumably
Ancestry will start work on it?

I'd _hope_ they both will.

see https://www.familyhistory.co.uk/census-records/1921-census/ for more information on release date/early release refusal

There is a second medal card as Joseph McDonald
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792574 but no
useful information

Thanks. I'll get it anyway, for completeness.

from
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-inf
antry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry/

Useful site!

King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
13th (Reserve) Battalion (Pioneers)
Formed at Ripon in October 1915 from the depot companies of the 12th
Bn. Moved initially to Harrogate and then to Gosforth in May 1916.
1 September 1916 : absorbed into Training Reserve Battalions of 19th
Reserve Brigade at Newcastle.

My friend (relation by marriage somewhere IIRR) had found that bit;
she'd also corresponded with KOYLI, who'd told her they had no record of being at Gosforth Park. (I'd guessed that was just where he'd stayed
while getting married.)

There are references to links/consolidations with the Durham Light
Infantry; the DLI Fenham Barracks were the other side of the Town Moor
from Gosforth. I suspect there were camps on the Town Moor.

There is then further information on the Training Reserve.

Getting back to your original Joseph McDonald query, Have you
researched the witnesses to the marriage? There is an outside
possibility they may help (perhaps another soldier/friend from his
home town?)

looks like this:

 in the |William Flanigan
Presence{      Exlu
 of us, |  Elizabeth Oxley

, with William and Elizabeth's names on the printed lines, and something that looks like Exlu in between. (At first I thought it might be Oxley,
but no, it's definitely an E.) The bride's father was William T.
Flanigan, and I don't have _note_ of her having any brothers William, so
it could be him. (I have no Oxley anywhere in my data.) [I'm happy to
share all I have - is your email valid?] With the unusual spelling of Flanigan, I'd be pretty sure William is a relative of Mary; so, I fear there's no help there. Was a good thought though!

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the Flanigan spelling. It looks as
though she was a Flanagan in 1901 census.

It looks as though Elizabeth Oxley was probably a friend of Mary

Yes, my e-mail is valid.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 at 11:08:29, john <john1@s145802280.onlinehome.fr>
wrote:
[]

There is a second medal card as Joseph McDonald >http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3792574 but no
useful information

Well, compared to the other card, it adds the [19]15 star, and tells me
that he first served in France, and starting 1915-8-26.
[]
So thanks for that.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Everyone learns from science. It all depends how you use the knowledge. - "Gil Grissom" (CSI).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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