• "Alieni" in parish record

    From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 23 12:03:07 2020
    Looking at baptisms in Bebington (Wirral, Cheshire, England), 1679.

    Most - all, I think - of the other entries on the page are of the form:

    <forename (nominative)> filius/filia <forename (genitive)> <surname> de
    <place> ____ <date>

    (forenames Latinised), which I of course understand to mean

    <forename> son/daughter of <forename> <surname> of <place> ____ <date>.

    However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
    [month of August]):

    Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3.

    Which I take to mean John son of John Mason (the <> is a little diamond,
    which I take to be a foible of the scribe - it's done without taking the
    pen off the page to draw the line to the date figure [handy, as it makes
    it a lot easier to see which date lines up with which line]).

    I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
    the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or
    Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
    Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
    Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
    but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
    after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
    your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
    asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Practically every British actor with a bus pass is in there ...
    Barry Norman (on "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" [2011]), RT 2015/12/12-18

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jenny M Benson@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 23 12:33:31 2020
    On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Looking at baptisms in Bebington (Wirral, Cheshire, England), 1679.

    Most - all, I think - of the other entries on the page are of the form:

    <forename (nominative)> filius/filia <forename (genitive)> <surname> de <place> ____ <date>

    (forenames Latinised), which I of course understand to mean

    <forename> son/daughter of <forename> <surname> of <place> ____ <date>.

    However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
    [month of August]):

    Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.

    Which I take to mean John son of John Mason (the <> is a little diamond, which I take to be a foible of the scribe - it's done without taking the
    pen off the page to draw the line to the date figure [handy, as it makes
    it a lot easier to see which date lines up with which line]).

    I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
    the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
    Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
    Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
    but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
    after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
    your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
    asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

    Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.

    One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor
    travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
    know himself where he was actually "from."

    --
    Jenny M Benson
    Wrexham, UK

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Evertjan.@21:1/5 to Jenny M Benson on Fri Oct 23 15:34:27 2020
    Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote on 23 Oct 2020 in soc.genealogy.britain:

    On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Looking at baptisms in Bebington (Wirral, Cheshire, England), 1679.

    Most - all, I think - of the other entries on the page are of the form:

    <forename (nominative)> filius/filia <forename (genitive)> <surname> de
    <place> ____ <date>

    (forenames Latinised), which I of course understand to mean

    <forename> son/daughter of <forename> <surname> of <place> ____ <date>.

    However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
    [month of August]):

    Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.

    Which I take to mean John son of John Mason (the <> is a little diamond,
    which I take to be a foible of the scribe - it's done without taking the
    pen off the page to draw the line to the date figure [handy, as it makes
    it a lot easier to see which date lines up with which line]).

    I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
    the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or
    Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
    Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
    Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
    but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
    after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
    your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
    asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

    Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.

    One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
    know himself where he was actually "from."

    Indeed.

    Filius Johannis Mason Alieni = Son of the foreign Johannus Mason.

    It here is the genitive of the adjective "alienus" [= foreign]

    <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/alienus>

    --
    Evertjan.
    The Netherlands.
    (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 23 15:54:59 2020
    On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 12:33:31, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
    wrote:
    On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    []
    However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti >>[month of August]):
    Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni
    <>____________________________3.
    []
    I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most
    []
    Greave, Hinderton, Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the >>clerk didn't know, but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised >>(especially one named after you, so quite likely the first one), it's
    not like just having your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely >>someone would have asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

    Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.

    (There was a storyline in "The Indian Doctor" - set in the 1960s in a
    Welsh mining village - where he refused until the father married the
    mother. I thought it not too creditable at the time; it was part of a
    storyline where the vicar was a baddie for a different reason. But I
    could just about believe such a refusal if there was doubt whether the
    father was being honest about some important detail.)

    One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor >travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
    know himself where he was actually "from."

    It's certainly possible JM was of no fixed abode, but then I'd have
    expected something like your example; "Alieni" suggests something
    definite.

    Anyone else come across it, and if so what were the circumstances?
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Apologies to [those] who may have been harmed by the scientific inaccuracies
    in this post. - Roger Tilbury in UMRA, 2018-3-14

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Evertjan.@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Fri Oct 23 17:13:27 2020
    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote on 23 Oct 2020 in soc.genealogy.britain:

    Anyone else come across it, and if so what were the circumstances?

    Pomps and circumstances?

    --
    Evertjan.
    The Netherlands.
    (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Athel Cornish-Bowden@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 23 18:04:50 2020
    On 2020-10-23 14:54:59 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) said:

    On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 12:33:31, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
    On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    []
    However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
    [month of August]):
    Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3.
    []
    I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most
    []
    Greave, Hinderton, Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the
    clerk didn't know, but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised
    (especially one named after you, so quite likely the first one), it's
    not like just having your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely
    someone would have asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a
    stranger?)

    Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.

    (There was a storyline in "The Indian Doctor" - set in the 1960s in a
    Welsh mining village - where he refused until the father married the
    mother. I thought it not too creditable at the time; it was part of a storyline where the vicar was a baddie for a different reason. But I
    could just about believe such a refusal if there was doubt whether the
    father was being honest about some important detail.)

    Well, the local priest in Chile wasn't keen on baptising our daughter
    because we were only going to be in Chile for another three weeks and
    that wouldn't enough time to participate in six weekly get-togethers
    with the other parents. However, he was won over when my wife,
    nominally Roman Catholic, said that she was anxious for her to be
    baptised in the Roman Catholic church (with emphasis on the "Roman
    Catholic"). The priest, knowing that we lived in England and that I was
    not Roman Catholic, had visions of the poor child being subjected to
    some pagan ritual, decided that maybe it was not essential for us to
    attend six weekly get-togethers.

    (It was exactly the other way round with the British consulate, who
    issued a passport in record time when they knew that our daughter had
    come to Chile on a nasty foreign passport.)

    One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor
    travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
    know himself where he was actually "from."

    It's certainly possible JM was of no fixed abode, but then I'd have
    expected something like your example; "Alieni" suggests something
    definite.

    Anyone else come across it, and if so what were the circumstances?


    --
    athel

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From cecilia@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Fri Oct 23 20:37:36 2020
    On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:03:07 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    [...]
    I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
    the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or >Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
    Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
    Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
    but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
    after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
    your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
    asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

    See http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/glossary.html#foreigner

    Within a parish,the chapelry, viillage, hamlet etc of the father.
    could be useful identification.

    If the father was from outside the local area, they might not have
    cared where he came from - apart from making it clear that he / his
    child were not local.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to cecilia on Fri Oct 23 22:18:59 2020
    On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 20:37:36, cecilia <myths@ic24.net> wrote:
    On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:03:07 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" ><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    [...]
    I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
    []
    See http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/glossary.html#foreigner

    Within a parish,the chapelry, viillage, hamlet etc of the father.
    could be useful identification.

    If the father was from outside the local area, they might not have
    cared where he came from - apart from making it clear that he / his
    child were not local.

    OK. Looks like I have very little chance of tracing that line much
    further back then (-:! [Mason not being that uncommon a name.]
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Just grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked,the good fortune to remember the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Sat Oct 24 05:08:51 2020
    On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:03:07 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:


    I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
    the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or >Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
    Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
    Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
    but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
    after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
    your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
    asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

    Perhaps to ensure that if the parents became indigent the child would
    not be a charge on the parish.


    --
    Steve Hayes
    Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
    http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ian Goddard@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 24 12:43:35 2020
    On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3.

    I wonder if "mason" is to be taken literally. Masons could be
    peripatetic. In leter times one can find the mason's family at one
    address and, after some searching, the mason himself lodged some
    distance away, presumably where there was a construction project.

    One possibility, then, is that here was a mason travelling with his
    family and, in absence of having taken note of his surname, given his occupation as the surname.

    Ian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 24 17:47:42 2020
    On Sat, 24 Oct 2020 at 12:43:35, Ian Goddard <ianng@austonley.org.uk>
    wrote:
    On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3.

    I wonder if "mason" is to be taken literally. Masons could be
    peripatetic. In leter times one can find the mason's family at one
    address and, after some searching, the mason himself lodged some
    distance away, presumably where there was a construction project.

    One possibility, then, is that here was a mason travelling with his
    family and, in absence of having taken note of his surname, given his >occupation as the surname.

    Ian

    Thanks. It's possible that he actually was a mason and thus peripatetic
    as you describe back in 16xx, but I don't think so: certainly for all
    his descendants, it was just a surname, not their profession. Most if
    not all of the other baptisms on the page give what are clearly just the father's surname, not profession. (I can't remember when surnames came
    in as the norm, but I think well before this.)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Religion often uses faith as a blindfold, saying anyone who doesn't believe
    the same as us must be wiped out. It's not God saying that. It's people, which is so dangerous. - Jenny Agutter, RT 2015/1/17-23

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)