Looking at baptisms in Bebington (Wirral, Cheshire, England), 1679.
Most - all, I think - of the other entries on the page are of the form:
<forename (nominative)> filius/filia <forename (genitive)> <surname> de <place> ____ <date>
(forenames Latinised), which I of course understand to mean
<forename> son/daughter of <forename> <surname> of <place> ____ <date>.
However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
[month of August]):
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.
Which I take to mean John son of John Mason (the <> is a little diamond, which I take to be a foible of the scribe - it's done without taking the
pen off the page to draw the line to the date figure [handy, as it makes
it a lot easier to see which date lines up with which line]).
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)
On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Looking at baptisms in Bebington (Wirral, Cheshire, England), 1679.
Most - all, I think - of the other entries on the page are of the form:
<forename (nominative)> filius/filia <forename (genitive)> <surname> de
<place> ____ <date>
(forenames Latinised), which I of course understand to mean
<forename> son/daughter of <forename> <surname> of <place> ____ <date>.
However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
[month of August]):
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.
Which I take to mean John son of John Mason (the <> is a little diamond,
which I take to be a foible of the scribe - it's done without taking the
pen off the page to draw the line to the date figure [handy, as it makes
it a lot easier to see which date lines up with which line]).
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or
Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)
Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.
One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
know himself where he was actually "from."
On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:[]
[]However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti >>[month of August]):
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni
<>____________________________3º.
[]I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most
Greave, Hinderton, Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the >>clerk didn't know, but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised >>(especially one named after you, so quite likely the first one), it's
not like just having your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely >>someone would have asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)
Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.
One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor >travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
know himself where he was actually "from."
Anyone else come across it, and if so what were the circumstances?
On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 12:33:31, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:[]
[]However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
[month of August]):
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.
[]I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most
Greave, Hinderton, Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the
clerk didn't know, but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised
(especially one named after you, so quite likely the first one), it's
not like just having your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely
someone would have asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a
stranger?)
Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.
(There was a storyline in "The Indian Doctor" - set in the 1960s in a
Welsh mining village - where he refused until the father married the
mother. I thought it not too creditable at the time; it was part of a storyline where the vicar was a baddie for a different reason. But I
could just about believe such a refusal if there was doubt whether the
father was being honest about some important detail.)
It's certainly possible JM was of no fixed abode, but then I'd have
One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor
travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
know himself where he was actually "from."
expected something like your example; "Alieni" suggests something
definite.
Anyone else come across it, and if so what were the circumstances?
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or >Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)
On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:03:07 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" ><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:[]
[...]
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
See http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/glossary.html#foreigner
Within a parish,the chapelry, viillage, hamlet etc of the father.
could be useful identification.
If the father was from outside the local area, they might not have
cared where he came from - apart from making it clear that he / his
child were not local.
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or >Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.
On 23/10/2020 12:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.
I wonder if "mason" is to be taken literally. Masons could be
peripatetic. In leter times one can find the mason's family at one
address and, after some searching, the mason himself lodged some
distance away, presumably where there was a construction project.
One possibility, then, is that here was a mason travelling with his
family and, in absence of having taken note of his surname, given his >occupation as the surname.
Ian
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